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Meet #1 Replacement Player - Sidney Crosby

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Old
03-07-2005, 11:53 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
And say Crosby runs into Concussion trouble or injury problems down the road and it shortens his Career .. Then what ??

What is Sidney Crosby has an Alexandre Daigle like career. Then what ??

Not sure in a physical sport like Hockey that one can take this approach even though I agree on morality it is the high road, but is it the right road is the question?? .. If he chooses your route its a big gamble ..

If he stars for Team Canada in the future ...and wins gold medals and championships would anyone remember he was a replacement player before he was an NHLPA player ..?? People's memories are short
I'm sure Crosby will have a ton of insurance in case of injury.

I doubt he would think "I might suck. I better take the money while I can". If he does think like that, maybe he isn't that special.

By the time he does star for Team Canada he will have made a bunch of money.

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03-07-2005, 12:24 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
I'm sure Crosby will have a ton of insurance in case of injury.

I doubt he would think "I might suck. I better take the money while I can". If he does think like that, maybe he isn't that special.

By the time he does star for Team Canada he will have made a bunch of money.
Let just hope its not in the WHA and the NHL instead then ..

Insurance based on what ?? He hasn't proven anything yet at the NHL level and his first for years he will be limited to 850K / year .. I don't see how insurance will pay him 5 mil /season should an injury occur in the first 4 years .. Young Nik Antropov tore up both knees and a shoulder before he was 22 years old..

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03-07-2005, 12:32 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Let just hope its not in the WHA and the NHL instead then ..

Insurance based on what ?? He hasn't proven anything yet at the NHL level and his first for years he will be limited to 850K / year .. I don't see how insurance will pay him 5 mil /season should an injury occur in the first 4 years .. Young Nik Antropov tore up both knees and a shoulder before he was 22 years old..
I may be wrong but if you are willing to pay the premiums can you not get insurance for any amount you wish? Would it not just be disability insurance?

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03-07-2005, 12:43 PM
  #79
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ok, one thing that hasnt been discussed in this whole thread is, why is this 15-20million signing bonus not going to be charged to the cap? In no sport with a cap are signing bonuses not charged in some respect to the cap

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03-07-2005, 12:44 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
I may be wrong but if you are willing to pay the premiums can you not get insurance for any amount you wish? Would it not just be disability insurance?
Not sure if Hockey Player insurance is different .. but in Canada Insurance is usally based on loss of wages and or replacement Value ..

You can't own a 100,000 Mobile home and insure it for 5 Mil in case of fire ..

Insurance for workers has been based on loss of wages .. If you are making $65 thousand a year lets say and have insurance incase of injury .. Insurance will only pay a portion of that amount .. The employer and WCB (short & Long term disability) pay the balance ..

So I would imagine a hockey player would be the same .. Mogilny's contract was insured and he is getting paid during the lockout but certainly not more then his Contract is worth ..

So Crosby could only take out insurance to cover equal to his 850k salary .. IMO ..He could take out and additional life Insurance policy I guess for a few extra hundred thousand but that money will do him no good ..

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03-07-2005, 12:51 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M. Fletcher
ok, one thing that hasnt been discussed in this whole thread is, why is this 15-20million signing bonus not going to be charged to the cap? In no sport with a cap are signing bonuses not charged in some respect to the cap
The catch being Replacement player .. under this situation no legal CBA exists .. So no hard Cap for replacement players .. I doubt that their contracts are even guaranteed ..

During this time is the only time a smart team like Toronto can take advantage and get Crosby's rights anyway .. If a CBA is in place then Crosby would go into the draft to be selected .. Otherwise you are 100% correct that a Signing bonus would count against a Cap ..

A rebel owner like Tannenbaum who got yelled at a BOG meeting for not towing the line .. should give the rest of the owners really something to get made at for, rather than trying to get NHL Hockey back ..

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03-07-2005, 01:06 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Not sure if Hockey Player insurance is different .. but in Canada Insurance is usally based on loss of wages and or replacement Value ..

You can't own a 100,000 Mobile home and insure it for 5 Mil in case of fire ..

Insurance for workers has been based on loss of wages .. If you are making $65 thousand a year lets say and have insurance incase of injury .. Insurance will only pay a portion of that amount .. The employer and WCB (short & Long term disability) pay the balance ..

So I would imagine a hockey player would be the same .. Mogilny's contract was insured and he is getting paid during the lockout but certainly not more then his Contract is worth ..

So Crosby could only take out insurance to cover equal to his 850k salary .. IMO ..He could take out and additional life Insurance policy I guess for a few extra hundred thousand but that money will do him no good ..
The first couple examples wouldn't apply.

Mogilny's contract was insured by the team not the player.

Again I may be wrong but for myself, I'm self employed with no employer or WCB to fall back on. I have disability insurance which I pay a premium to every month. When I took it out I don't remember there being any type of limit on the payout but the premiums escalated as the insurance increased.

I know that other athletes and performers take out insurance in case their careers are cut short. I know I read about Brittany Spears suing her insurance for lost earnings after hurting a knee and cancelling tour dates. I believe Beckhams legs are insured as well. I'm sure there are many more examples.

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03-07-2005, 01:50 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
The first couple examples wouldn't apply.

Mogilny's contract was insured by the team not the player.

Again I may be wrong but for myself, I'm self employed with no employer or WCB to fall back on. I have disability insurance which I pay a premium to every month. When I took it out I don't remember there being any type of limit on the payout but the premiums escalated as the insurance increased.

I know that other athletes and performers take out insurance in case their careers are cut short. I know I read about Brittany Spears suing her insurance for lost earnings after hurting a knee and cancelling tour dates. I believe Beckhams legs are insured as well. I'm sure there are many more examples.
I understand but in your case being self employed as I am as well .. if you were injured and could not work ..

How would you expect insurance to pay you ??.. I am guessing they will ask for say your last 3 income tax returns you submitted and take the average earning of those.. Along with a official medical report to determine length of time you are expected to be off work and how the injury would effect you. Also the amount of your monthly insurance premius are based on a number not unlimited and each 10 k probably costs you an additional 1 dollar per month. I work from home in the Computer/Financial field .. If I broke my leg that would not stop me from working and disability insurance would not apply in that case .. They key with Crosby is he has not proven NHL track record to back up his Claim .. Chris Pronger can hand an insurance agent his 10 mil contract and say pay this ..

Actresses etc would not apply because they are easily worth more then the insurance they carry .. Brittney Spears makes millions touring and singing .. That he would be covered by insurance but sitting in a recording studio and releasing a new album would not be affected by a bad knee .. but that is a whole different story as with David Beckham as they have made millions and are currently making millions, and younger/non famous soccer star would be treated signiscantly different IMO, and notice its his legs that are insured .. If he broke and Arm I doubt insurance would cover that ..


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03-07-2005, 02:07 PM
  #84
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I know currently Spears is suing an insurance company for lost income from cancelled shows.
I could be way off the mark here but would a player like Crosby not currently have insurance while playing junior? or say a Michelle Wie or any other amatuer phenom? I would think they would.

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03-07-2005, 02:47 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
I know currently Spears is suing an insurance company for lost income from cancelled shows.
I could be way off the mark here but would a player like Crosby not currently have insurance while playing junior? or say a Michelle Wie or any other amatuer phenom? I would think they would.
Great question .. I don't know but they make such little as CHL players that I would question if you could you even insure that .. Because performance in the CHL does not equal NHL financial reward or success on the ice .. what would you base it on .. For instance Crosby as entry level could only get 850K .. If he got hurt his first 4 years I am still pretty sure that is all that insurance would cover, however on his side even if he busts (poor performace) and gets hurt he would still be entitled to the full amount .. Still equal to 4 years at 850K = 3.4 Mil ..

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03-07-2005, 09:08 PM
  #86
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one thing that you are missing is that replacement players arent coming in under no CBA, they are coming in under a CBA put in place by the owners. So, there will be a cap, and bonus will count against it. Thats the whole point of replacement players, to have them play under a system already assigned.

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03-07-2005, 09:35 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M. Fletcher
one thing that you are missing is that replacement players arent coming in under no CBA, they are coming in under a CBA put in place by the owners. So, there will be a cap, and bonus will count against it. Thats the whole point of replacement players, to have them play under a system already assigned.
No you are mistaken .. The replacements that are being hired are currently not paying union members of the NHLPA.... The CBA in place even if its NHL imposed in the Final offer, was negotiated by the NHLPA .. So the replacement players have no union no rights and no team is bound by that ..

The are also two different ways to have replacement players ..

1) The Owners declare and IMPASSE and move to implementation, fight the case in court with the NLRB , while the union does on strike .. Replacements in this case can be all unsigned players and any players that cross the picket lines to return .. However the CBA in place is not valid, and in fact is cancelled/suspended because the NHLPA is in a Strike position ..

2) Simply keep the Lockout in effect and go to replacement players .. In this case replacement players can only be NON-NHLPA members and NO PLAYERS of the current NHLPA could play even if they wanted to..The owners would not be playing under a CBA at all because they are using NON-UNION employees..

Either position the CBA is not valid and only in Option can it become valid once the NHLPA has lost its case of UNFAIR LABOUR PRACTICES and ruled the NHL bargained in GOOD FAITH ....


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03-07-2005, 10:40 PM
  #88
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The Messenger: Everything I have seen or read about what would happen with an impasse has led to me understand that the whole point of an impasse is for the owners to impose their own CBA without having the NHLPA agree to it and it will have to be the CBA the owners last offered to the NHLPA. If this course of action would make the CBA the owners put in place nul and void there would be no point in doing it. The NHL will have to be found of bargained in good faith before they can even hire replacements to play for them.

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03-07-2005, 11:01 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: Everything I have seen or read about what would happen with an impasse has led to me understand that the whole point of an impasse is for the owners to impose their own CBA without having the NHLPA agree to it and it will have to be the CBA the owners last offered to the NHLPA. If this course of action would make the CBA the owners put in place nul and void there would be no point in doing it. The NHL will have to be found of bargained in good faith before they can even hire replacements to play for them.
Your statement is virtually correct .. except inorder to open for operations they have to drop the lockout at which time the Union would go on strike and file UNFAIR LABOUR PRACTICES and the courts will have to rule ... In Baseball in 1994-95 the Owners did exactly as you said in order start up again .. The PA and players took them to court and the judge made the Owners throw out their imposed CBA and the old CBA was reinstated ..

Think about a hard cap and replacement players .. There was talk that they would each make 350-500 k to play as replacements .. 500K X 23 players = 11.5 Mil in Salaries of replacement players .. Now a former player crosses a picket line to return to work .. Two problems happen immediately .. a replacement player has to be cut (but how can that happen the CBA has guaranteed contracts) and secondly the CBA says buyouts the only way to get a player off the team count toward the cap .. So think about that problem then .. If your Salary Cap is 42.5 and you already have 11.5 used up by replacement players then if your whole team came back you could only pay them 31.0 mil Total as you still have your 11.5 replacement players on the books .. and with any CBA we can agree to you can't just follow some rules but all or none .. and replacement players are not NHLPA union members so how does a CBA apply to them in the first place ???

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03-07-2005, 11:12 PM
  #90
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The Messenger: I'm not 100% on the law about this, but while the NHLPA was filling their greivence about unfair labour practices the league would either be able to A) Play with the CBA they last proposed to the NHLPA or B) Wouldn't be able to use replacements until after the labour board dealt with the NHLPA greivence, in which case it doesn't really matter cause we won't see replacements anyway.

Any replacement would be signed with the understanding that they are replacements and would be able to be cut from their teams. Just like some players can be sent down to the AHL cause they have two contracts, replacements would be able to be cut. Most players can't just leave the team they sign a contract with to play with another team, yet if the NHL started up half way through the season Nash and Thorton and the other 400 NHL'ers would have walked away from the contracts they signed with the European teams. Its a special circumstance.

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03-07-2005, 11:57 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: I'm not 100% on the law about this, but while the NHLPA was filling their greivence about unfair labour practices the league would either be able to A) Play with the CBA they last proposed to the NHLPA or B) Wouldn't be able to use replacements until after the labour board dealt with the NHLPA greivence, in which case it doesn't really matter cause we won't see replacements anyway.

Any replacement would be signed with the understanding that they are replacements and would be able to be cut from their teams. Just like some players can be sent down to the AHL cause they have two contracts, replacements would be able to be cut. Most players can't just leave the team they sign a contract with to play with another team, yet if the NHL started up half way through the season Nash and Thorton and the other 400 NHL'ers would have walked away from the contracts they signed with the European teams. Its a special circumstance.
Here is an interview with Boston Owner Jeremy Jabobs and notice how he dances around the qestions asked by the interviewer similar to our discussion ..

http://www.eagletribune.com/news/sto...306/SP_003.htm

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03-08-2005, 01:16 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Here is an interview with Boston Owner Jeremy Jabobs and notice how he dances around the qestions asked by the interviewer similar to our discussion ..

http://www.eagletribune.com/news/sto...306/SP_003.htm
The Messenger.........

Who would you like to see the Leafs sign on after June 1st?........If you have a crystal ball in your hand what does that ball show you how the Leafs lineup will look like for the start of the 2005-06 NHL season?

Cheers!

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03-08-2005, 06:46 AM
  #93
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Now that money won't be an issue, what's his incentive?

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03-08-2005, 12:07 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: I'm not 100% on the law about this, but while the NHLPA was filling their greivence about unfair labour practices the league would either be able to A) Play with the CBA they last proposed to the NHLPA or B) Wouldn't be able to use replacements until after the labour board dealt with the NHLPA greivence, in which case it doesn't really matter cause we won't see replacements anyway.

Any replacement would be signed with the understanding that they are replacements and would be able to be cut from their teams. Just like some players can be sent down to the AHL cause they have two contracts, replacements would be able to be cut. Most players can't just leave the team they sign a contract with to play with another team, yet if the NHL started up half way through the season Nash and Thorton and the other 400 NHL'ers would have walked away from the contracts they signed with the European teams. Its a special circumstance.
That's the way I understand it as well.

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03-08-2005, 04:40 PM
  #95
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When asked about what team he would play for if he was ruled a free-agent when the NHL was back, Crosby picked his favourite childhood team.

"That's a tough one, my dream was to always play with Montreal," Crosby stated. "That's the first thing that comes to mind. It depends on the situation, but I think that would be my dream come true - to play for Montreal."

Link

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03-08-2005, 04:52 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenPond
When asked about what team he would play for if he was ruled a free-agent when the NHL was back, Crosby picked his favourite childhood team.

"That's a tough one, my dream was to always play with Montreal," Crosby stated. "That's the first thing that comes to mind. It depends on the situation, but I think that would be my dream come true - to play for Montreal."

Link
Been of that belief all along.

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03-08-2005, 05:19 PM
  #97
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What! He dont want to play for the Leaf

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03-08-2005, 05:39 PM
  #98
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Damn! now i'll have to hate the Habs!

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03-08-2005, 07:47 PM
  #99
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Damn! now i'll have to hate the Habs!
Now?

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03-08-2005, 09:10 PM
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Now?
i don't really hate them....just the sens and Flys

....ok, you can slap me now

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