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Are we....tanking!?

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:07 AM
  #101
Cor
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I find something funny....

It took Burke like 2 1/2 years to clean up JFJ's mess

It took Nonis a week (Minus Komisarek) to get rid of Burke's spills

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01-19-2013, 02:11 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
I find something funny....

It took Burke like 2 1/2 years to clean up JFJ's mess

It took Nonis a week (Minus Komisarek) to get rid of Burke's spills
Brian Burke wasn't fired because of this mess

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01-19-2013, 02:17 AM
  #103
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We aren't "tanking", in the literal sense - I think tanking implies that you have willfully chosen to compete for the low-end draft picks by removing all your valuable assets on the team and replacing them with youthful ones.

If this team was tanking, there would be a few pieces that still command some sort of value on the team that would be traded - Grabovski, Kulemin, and Kessel, to name a few.

Rather than tanking, I think management and Nonis in particular, have taken a more patient approach to things. They don't want to rush this, and start moving out some young assets, and they don't want to blow it up and start trading away assets for youth. Rather, I think they've decided to just wait and see and assess just what they have here.

Which quite honestly, is the best approach to take right now. Just WAIT and see what you have, and then re-assess in a few months.

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01-19-2013, 02:21 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Am I the only one who feels that the latest moves plus sticking with Reimer/Scrivens (and not getting Luongo) is a sign that mgmt is okay with "tanking" this season for MacKinnon? I don't mean to criticize the moves, I'd actually stick with Scrivens/Reimer now instead of trading for Luongo and I too probably would've waived Connolly/traded Lombardi and probably cut Reilly for more jnr time even if he looked ready.

I don't know if it'll work because even though others are doubting, I think assuming a healthy and recovered Reimer, this is a better Leafs team than the past several years but we'll know based on the first few roster moves made by mgmt. They might finally be taking the right approach. I think they're in a good position, expectations aren't high especially with a shortened season so even if they miss the playoffs they might as well make the best of it and if they make the playoffs even if it's a 1st round loss then it'll still be seen as progress....almost a win win situations. Here's to hoping they don't manage to get 9th-12th.

EDIT: Btw I should clarify before someone mentions it, I mean tanking as in the GM sense of not really pushing for moves to make your team a playoff team for this season. I don't mean that they're telling the players not to try or something.
Does it really matter if this team is better then previous Leaf teams? Why would we want to be like previous Leaf teams. This franchise needs to move away from the garbage and mediocrity we've deat with the previous 7-8 years. We've been so used to this that when we make these moves it seems we don't know how to react. This is for the better. Connolly and Lombardi were never ever going to be difference makers for this team, the young players will no doubt perform better IMO.

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01-19-2013, 02:24 AM
  #105
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I hope as we continue on this path and we become more successful down the road we start comparing ourselves to better teams rather than question the motives of our management due to the fact that we aren't as good as previous Leaf teams of the last decade because we don't have mediocre 3rd line players stuffing our line-up every night. If there is team and a fan base that needs a rebuild it's this one.

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:30 AM
  #106
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Short term pain, for long term gain.

Should have been the mandate the second Burke stepped foot into the organization.

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01-19-2013, 02:38 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
We aren't "tanking", in the literal sense - I think tanking implies that you have willfully chosen to compete for the low-end draft picks by removing all your valuable assets on the team and replacing them with youthful ones.

If this team was tanking, there would be a few pieces that still command some sort of value on the team that would be traded - Grabovski, Kulemin, and Kessel, to name a few.

Rather than tanking, I think management and Nonis in particular, have taken a more patient approach to things. They don't want to rush this, and start moving out some young assets, and they don't want to blow it up and start trading away assets for youth. Rather, I think they've decided to just wait and see and assess just what they have here.

Which quite honestly, is the best approach to take right now. Just WAIT and see what you have, and then re-assess in a few months.
Exactly, we're so quick to judge our talent, that we don't give them time to breathe as prospects, the minute they're drafted they're compared to certain players without even stepping foot into an NHL rink. People are already saying Kadri is a bust..I'd love to know the reason why. A 22 year old who has taken a few years to mature and understand all aspects of the game a bit better..I wouldn't call that a bust, I call that development. We'll see over the course of this year and next where Kadri is as a prospect. With a lot of our prospects this franchise has been very quick to pull the trigger. Schenn made the team out of camp which was a bad decision, Kadri doesn't make the team for a few years and he's labelled a bust, Rielly gets sent down and people are pissed..I really am happy that Nonis is going to take the time to assess everything and not react like this fan base does on a regular basis.

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01-19-2013, 04:50 AM
  #108
Darcy Tucker
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tanking has got to be the dumbest idea in sports. I honestly think that these posters who suggest it are just Leaf trolls who dont even care about the team.

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01-19-2013, 05:24 AM
  #109
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I most certainly hope that this organization has finally seen the light and decided to tank, as now is the best time to do so.

Given the recent removal of Lomabardi and Connolly, and the lack of any appreciable increase in overall talent from last season's team to this season's team, it appears that Nonis is hoping to acquire a top-5 pick in this summer's Draft.

However, appearances can be deceiving.

A more certain sign that this organization has chosen to tank for the next few seasons would be Nonis trading away the likes of Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and a few others who have some measure of value so that he can properly re-stock the prospect cupboard with high-end talent could can be controlled for a significant length of time.

Also, doing this now would open up more roster spots so that more younger players can get an opportunity to show Nonis what he has to work with, htus allowing him to go into the up-coming Draft with a much better idea of what the organization still needs. Furthermore, this would give Nonis a better idea of what he might need to acquire via trade or free agency for next season.

Let's face the fact here. This organization has been in dire need of a proper re-build for many years and now is perfect time for Management and Ownership to prove that they are ready and willing to suck it up for a few more years with the intended goal of seeing a much brighter future sooner rather than later.. or potentially never.

So.. if tanking is in this organization's immediate future, then let's see it done right, not in a half-assed manner. What I don't want to see happen (again) is the equivalent of a partial circumcision; either go all the way or f---ing foget it!

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01-19-2013, 05:28 AM
  #110
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Nonis will try and make us better, thing is there really is not much he can do. I guess he figured out that for the franchise it is better to play our own youngsters in hope they can elevate their game and thus improve us rather then hang on to 2 proven but injury plagued players who had no future with us beyond this season. If that means we are bottom 5 like previous seasons or manage to squeeze in to the playoffs is out of his hands. I dont think that is the same as tanking, he will just not sacrifice the future for the present.

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01-19-2013, 06:45 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
Exactly, we're so quick to judge our talent, that we don't give them time to breathe as prospects, the minute they're drafted they're compared to certain players without even stepping foot into an NHL rink. People are already saying Kadri is a bust..I'd love to know the reason why. A 22 year old who has taken a few years to mature and understand all aspects of the game a bit better..I wouldn't call that a bust, I call that development. We'll see over the course of this year and next where Kadri is as a prospect. With a lot of our prospects this franchise has been very quick to pull the trigger. Schenn made the team out of camp which was a bad decision, Kadri doesn't make the team for a few years and he's labelled a bust, Rielly gets sent down and people are pissed..I really am happy that Nonis is going to take the time to assess everything and not react like this fan base does on a regular basis.
The problem with the Leafs' orgaization is that it's been run very poorly for far too long, and as a result of such poor management, the situation surrounding the organization has progressively gotten worse as the years have gone by. Also, the expectations of many fans has increased over the same period of time to the point where these expectations have become utterly ridiculous.

This happens because far too many fans have no patience when it comes to their team's prospects. They also get far too excited when it comes to these prospects, so much so that they get irrational when said prospect hasn't immediately met their ridiculous expectations of how quickly a prospect should make it into the NHL to play for their chosen team (and automatically be an impact player as well right out of the gate).

What many people fail to understand is that not every prospect who gets drafted in a given year is capable of immediately stepping into an NHL line-up and be that impact player they want him to be.

More often than not, a prospect requires a few seasons of development-time to properly mature and further hone their skills. Sometimes a prospect develops faster than originally expected and sometimes a prospect develops slower than originally expected; as such, the development time is different for each prospect and that is something that many fans can't deal with because their ridiculous expectations tell them otherwise.

People seriously need to chill if their favorite prospect of the month doesn't develop as quickly as they want him to.

In the recent cases of Schenn and Kadri, it was pretty much inevitable that both of them would be rushed into the Leafs' line-up, as that's been the Leafs' M.O. for quite a long time. As a result, both of their respective developments have been adversely affected to some degree, causing each of them undue stress.

Personally, I rather like the approach that the Detroit Red Wings have taken regarding the development of their prospects, and I would like to see the Leafs adopt the same kind of approach.

However, a GM must also know when to fish or cut bait when it comes to the prospects under his control, and Nonis needs to know what level of development his best prospects are at so that he can make his plans for the future of the Leafs. To do this in the most efficient way possible, he has to open up more roster spots so that he can assess more pospects at the same time (due to the shortened season).

Since the Leafs aren't likely to crawl out of the NHL's cellar anytime soon, he can solve two problems at the same time by trading his most valuable players (Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, etc.) for high-end picks and/or prospects who can help the Leafs down the road, thus opening up the necessary roster spots which can be filled by several of the organization's top prospects so that he can properly assess them.

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Old
01-19-2013, 08:50 AM
  #112
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What is now obvious...

Is that Burke had no plan.But his firing bought Nonnis time and Leaf fans will forgive another losing season,especially a short one. Anything can happen and if it becomes obvious we still aren't there he can unload Burke's mistakes for a return at deadline.

Phaneuff(MID FIRST)Grabo.(MID FIRST),MacA(LATE FIRST) and maybe Komi.(2ND ROUNDER) will land some nice assets.I think he keeps Lupul for leadership.


Last edited by darrylsittler27: 01-19-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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01-19-2013, 08:58 AM
  #113
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god i hope we suck, draft mackinnon, and just look forward to next year.


I hope kadri succeeds and i dont even like him. Have a good year on a bad team gain some confidence show some improvement. Feel bad for the guy because if he doesnt improve i don't see him a leaf next year.





I hope Phaneuf is gone by next season also or atleast stripped of the C

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01-19-2013, 09:06 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
I find something funny....

It took Burke like 2 1/2 years to clean up JFJ's mess

It took Nonis a week (Minus Komisarek) to get rid of Burke's spills
There really wasn't to much to clean up but lots more to make this a Carlyle team

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01-19-2013, 09:10 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
Is that Burke had no plan.But his firing bought Nonnis time and Leaf fans will forgive another losing season,especially a short one. Anything can happen and if it becomes obvious we still aren't there he can unload Burke's mistakes for a return at deadline.

Phaneuff(MID FIRST)Grabo.(MID FIRST),MacA(LATE FIRST) and maybe Komi.(2ND ROUNDER) will land some nice assets.I think he keeps Lupul for leadership.
I am sure glad you do not run a hockey club. This was a troll post right

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01-19-2013, 09:14 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
I find something funny....

It took Burke like 2 1/2 years to clean up JFJ's mess

It took Nonis a week (Minus Komisarek) to get rid of Burke's spills
Burke's "spills" (which were intentionally planned short terms) were over in 48 games and were not even here for 2 1/2 years.

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01-19-2013, 09:19 AM
  #117
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why do i get the feeling the leafs are going to do a lot better than ppl are predicting ?
Agreed. People forget we were playing like a playoff team for 3/4 of the season until the wheels fell off.

Especially with this type of season, you never know what could happen.

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01-19-2013, 09:24 AM
  #118
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I really dont understand guys who want to tank.

So here we are.. opening night of the season... anything is possible...Leafs vs. Habs.. and your hoping for the Habs?

Why bother calling yourself a leaf fan?


I understand the idea of tanking to get a better pick when its clear that we're out of the playoffs, this is for those who want to tank before the puck drops.

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01-19-2013, 09:25 AM
  #119
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I think this season will come down to 3 things:

1. Goaltending
2. Defence
3. Will the 2nd line revert back to the 10-11 season

Bozak may be a surprise player this year, think he may be our best Center and leading point producer at that position this year.

If Kadri and JVR have a bit of chemistry this year, they can offset the lost production that the #2 line had last year.

We could score a lot of goals but hard to see this team will be strong defensively. Which leads us to a 3rd to 7th overall pick range again. Team has some good fwds but obviously lacking at the back line and goaltending position. Games against Price and Miller will be interesting. 1-1 or 0-2 start?

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01-19-2013, 09:26 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by xyzz View Post
I really dont understand guys who want to tank.

So here we are.. opening night of the season... anything is possible...Leafs vs. Habs.. and your hoping for the Habs?

Why bother calling yourself a leaf fan?


I understand the idea of tanking to get a better pick when its clear that we're out of the playoffs, this is for those who want to tank before the puck drops.
Your answer will be "I'm not cheering for the Habs, I'm just cheering for the Leafs not to win".

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01-19-2013, 09:32 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Kessely Snipes View Post
Agreed. People forget we were playing like a playoff team for 3/4 of the season until the wheels fell off.

Especially with this type of season, you never know what could happen.

It's hard to say. One could also say that when the games started to mean more and it got down to crunch time, the Leafs folded or were exposed.

This season will mean more right off the bat with only 48 games in it.

Time will tell.

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01-19-2013, 09:36 AM
  #122
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It's hard to say. One could also say that when the games started to mean more and it got down to crunch time, the Leafs folded or were exposed.

This season will mean more right off the bat with only 48 games in it.

Time will tell.
The season before that when the Leafs played lights out the last half of the season those same people theorized that it was because the other teams were mailing it in. I wish they'd pick a story.

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01-19-2013, 09:37 AM
  #123
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The season before that when the Leafs played lights out the last half of the season those same people theorized that it was because the other teams were mailing it in. I wish they'd pick a story.
Who knows. Time will tell.

I'm cool with 8th place. I'm cool with a top 5 pick.

I have no expectations.

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01-19-2013, 10:01 AM
  #124
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It's hard to say. One could also say that when the games started to mean more and it got down to crunch time, the Leafs folded or were exposed.

This season will mean more right off the bat with only 48 games in it.

Time will tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
The season before that when the Leafs played lights out the last half of the season those same people theorized that it was because the other teams were mailing it in. I wish they'd pick a story.
What might appear to some to be opposite positions because of the teams performance going in different direction, can actually be easily explained. The common thread that connects those two on similar paths is that this Leafs team does not play well under ** Pressure **.

- When a season is already lost and you have nothing to lose while the pressure is off, the Leafs played well down the stretch to end a season.

- Last year after getting off to a good start they folded under pressure in the 2nd half of the season unable to hold their playoff position.

Moral of the story is the current Leafs player personnel lack the experience, leadership and intestinal fortitude to deal well under pressure, and that is why they continually end up near the bottom of the standings and appear to be tanking by the final results. Its really a main ingredient that separates good teams from bad ones.

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01-19-2013, 10:04 AM
  #125
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I agree 100% with Mess.

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