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The thread in which I invite people to explain how AV hates young/skilled players

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Old
01-19-2013, 01:50 PM
  #76
mossey3535
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I don't have time to properly research the examples I need, and evidently all you guys are interested in doing is offering up excuses and saying everything is hunky-dory. Of course some decisions were rational at the time, but it all adds up to a disturbing trend in the way we do things.

If I listened to you guys, I would let AV off the hook for the forwards, the various GM's off the hook for their drafting.....everyone is happy and healthy kumbaya! So I guess we're a model organization?

I don't buy it. We still have a lot of work to do IMO.

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01-19-2013, 01:56 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I don't have time to properly research the examples I need, and evidently all you guys are interested in doing is offering up excuses and saying everything is hunky-dory. Of course some decisions were rational at the time, but it all adds up to a disturbing trend in the way we do things.

If I listened to you guys, I would let AV off the hook for the forwards, the various GM's off the hook for their drafting.....everyone is happy and healthy kumbaya! So I guess we're a model organization?

I don't buy it. We still have a lot of work to do IMO.
We have some work to do. If Kassian and Schroeder are 40+ point top 9 players next season with Jensen playing well in the AHL and getting some call ups, we'll be sitting pretty. How those guys progress in the next couple seasons is going to make or break how we look at Gillis draft history and player development. Too early to panic imo.

As far as AV goes, his record speaks for itself. He has developed players all over our lineup. It's frustrating when guys with enough skill don't make it, but skill isn't all you need to play for AV. That's a big reason we've been so successful imo.

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01-19-2013, 02:04 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I don't have time to properly research the examples I need, and evidently all you guys are interested in doing is offering up excuses and saying everything is hunky-dory. Of course some decisions were rational at the time, but it all adds up to a disturbing trend in the way we do things.

If I listened to you guys, I would let AV off the hook for the forwards, the various GM's off the hook for their drafting.....everyone is happy and healthy kumbaya! So I guess we're a model organization?

I don't buy it. We still have a lot of work to do IMO.
You have to look at the decision in the context of what was known at the time. It's the only way to evaluate them. You can't look back and say this was a bad decision because something no one knew about or expected happened.

At the time, it was the right decision to trade Grabner rather than risk letting him go for nothing in October. I would say Gillis gave up a bit too much in the Grabner trade, but it was the right decision to trade him.

Shirokov was probably a mistake in the way he was handled. AV should have been more patient with him. He should have been brought up to play some games at the NHL level to get more of a taste of the NHL game.

We don't know what was going on between the Cody Hodgson camp and the Canucks coaching / front office. Personally, I think we could have really used CoHo in the LA series and if he was on the roster right now, there would be fewer concerns about our 2nd line.

I think Schroeder is being handled well up to this point. If he doesn't get a sniff at the NHL this season then I'll be with you. He played well enough in training camp to make the team. I'll trust what Gillis says at this point about the rest of the season.


I think one of the things that makes it look much worse is that we havn't had a lot of really high draft picks. The only top 10 picks we have had in the last 10 years were Luc Bourdon and Cody Hodgson - and for very different reasons, neither of those players is with us now.

Grabner was a #14 pick - and he ended up turning into Keith Ballard.

Jordan Schroeder was our next highest draft pick at #22.

Gaunce (26) and Jensen (29) are our only other first round picks in the Gillis era.


Last edited by LeftCoast: 01-19-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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01-19-2013, 02:23 PM
  #79
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Just out of curiosity with does that have to do with coach V? He doesn't make the final roster decisions and has little to no input on trades.
Odd. I didn't say anything about trades. Grabner was brought up as an example of a player AV couldn't mould. I'm making the case that he could have been.

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01-19-2013, 02:33 PM
  #80
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Odd. I didn't say anything about trades. Grabner was brought up as an example of a player AV couldn't mould. I'm making the case that he could have been.
AV did mould Grabner into an NHLer... Gillis traded him.

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01-19-2013, 03:17 PM
  #81
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I'll weigh my opinion in here on why the dislike with AV and why it's more focused towards the Kids. For me it started with Luc Bourdon he was a better defenseman than a washed up Aaron Miller. Bourdon could out-skate and was better offensively and imo it was negilible Defensively cause Miller wasn't too great of skater. Yet many times Bourdon would be paired with Miller, and when Miller made a boneheaded play he didn't sit Bourdon sat. Which imo hurt his development.

What I think a few of you fail to understand on the Players you praise him with (Kesler and Hansen in specific) is both of them have always been tremendously hard workers and Kesler worked very hard on his hands which were his biggest negative) and Hansen had decent hands before the NHL they just haven't caught up to him in the NHL til last year. But where AV does deserve credit is giving them an opportunity with more ice-time (some because of hard work other because there was no other choice).

The biggest reason for AV hates kids is the Fan-favorite who is not here anymore(Hodgson). Cody had great praise and looked poised to be our next Trevor Linden (not in style of play to a degree but in the fact they were big game players and leaders). AV's comments after Cody's back injury training camp is the main reason most have a dislike for him with kids, AV couldn't of been right to think this but I am sorry this is not something that should've ever been said in public he could've said something to Hodgson or done what was the right thing and just keep his mouth shut on it and let Gillis deal with it. While it wasn't in the NHL but when Pat Quinn (one of the best coaches we've ever had) says Hodgson was Tournament MVP over 1st overall draft choice Tavares, that was a sign many of us liked. For me I personally became a fanboy of Cody in the Russia game for 2 major plays his unnoticed play by many keeping the puck in and helping it get to Tavares to get the puck to Eberle and the Overtime where you could see he was bagged and had laboured breathing yet usually less 30 seconds later he was back out on the ice. Cody was a big game player that never got the opportunity to show it much here in Vancouver. He 2 best games in my opinion were the San Jose Overtime Game in around March (can't remember off the top of my head) and the Bruins game. Where he made Tim Thomas a goalie who 8 months prior looked nigh unbeatable against everyone and made him look like he was an ECHL goalie on one clear shot. Not saying Hodgson didn't have issues but trading him for me makes no sense unless a player came out and said "Hodgson is a whiny *****!"

Though there is more to my detriment of AV and most of it is how I believe we will never win a cup with as our coach but that isn't for this thread

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01-19-2013, 03:23 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CM- View Post
Not saying Hodgson didn't have issues but trading him for me makes no sense unless a player came out and said "Hodgson is a whiny *****!"
You do realize that's what the GM of this club said about him, right? Not to mention that it was pretty clear the players on this team didn't think too highly of Cody based on all the little things they said about him.

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01-19-2013, 04:01 PM
  #83
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I didn't look up the exact line times, I admit that. And I was talking about the Kings 4th line from memory so I botched the names. But you didn't stop to ask what I meant by consistent.

The point I was trying to make is that the 4th line has to be stable and consistent throughout the year. That might not mean in terms of EXACT personnel, but in many cases on other teams there are one or two guys who anchor the line.

Your line combos don't change my argument. In King, Nolan, and Clifford you've got two rookies and a 2nd year guy who were trusted to move up and down the lineup and be put out there for significant minutes in the playoffs, not like our fourth lines.
So what you meant by "stable 4th line" and listing those players - two of whom weren't even 4th liners on the Kings - actually had nothing to do with having a stable 4th line? Right. How silly of me to misinterpret your statement.

How does having "one or two guys who anchor the line" differ from Vancouver? Especially when you consider that two of the three guys you listed still played less than 30 games last season.

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Again, look at the Flyers. It's not like they are some bottom feeding team who are forced to plug these holes with rookies. Can you even imagine us carrying that many rookies and letting them play PP and PK? No, you can't. That's the issue I have.

And it isn't a matter of just 'oh let him play as much as he wants' or 'play him super sheltered'. Look what the Flyers did with Schenn. He was given a chance, he was floating, and they demoted him to the 4th, and then they gave him another chance when he learned his lesson. That simply doesn't happen here unless AV gets some 'oh let's put random player X with the Sedins, see if that works'. There is a chance to adapt and play these rookies as the circumstances dictates and we just haven't done that at all. That's what I mean by player development.
That sounds a lot like the way Raymond, Hansen, Kassian, etc. have been treated with the Canucks under AV. I don't really understand what team you're watching here.

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For example: the current circumstances are perfect to see what Schroeder can do for the 2nd line with Kesler injured and his chemistry with Raymond in training camp indicates that might happen. I'm withholding final judgement until all the waiver shenanigans get sorted out but if we don't seize this opportunity to find out what one our bonafide prospects can do in the perfect situation to have an excuse to give him a chance ... well, it just seems like the same old. Don't you find that sad as a fan of this team?
So your example is a thing that you state, in the same paragraph, that you're not really sure is actually an example of whatever it is you're trying to complain about?

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The thing is, I have already acknowledged parts of your argument to be true. But what you're trying to do is pick on details of my argument (which I didn't research this time, sue me) and ignore the spirit of mine.

We can get a LOT better at developing our talent up front in my opinion. But I guess we're just going to give the organization a pass again because it's easier.
Pointing out that the three players you used as an example contradict the thing you're trying to claim isn't picking on the details of your argument. You don't really have an argument. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. Most of the things you've said that the Canucks should be doing are things that the Canucks do. Seriously, what are you even saying, aside from vague ******** like "oh we should be doing a LOT better at such and such, but don't expect me to go into any detail about what or how."

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01-19-2013, 04:13 PM
  #84
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I understand frustration over Byron Ritchie and Rome to some degree (although I thought they made sense circumstantially), but AV did NOTHING wrong with the way he handled Grabner. He was being groomed into an excellent 2nd/3rd line winger in the context of our team, developed excellent chemistry with Raymond and Kesler, and was one of our better players that time we got knocked out by Chicago. He was on the verge of being a 20 goal, 40+ point forward on this team.

Getting annoyed because he occassionally had to sit in favor of veterans during crunch/defensive moments? Give me a break. He's a young player getting eased into the game.

In my opinion, Hodgson was being groomed the right way as well. You can't blame AV for not living up to the crazy prima-donna expectations of Hodgson's dad when their were still holes in his game.

The only issue I have with AV is that he hasn't been a particularly great tactician in the playoffs and gets outcoached in THAT way, but he's been entirely fair and consistent in the way he coaches the team and treats his players, IMO.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 01-19-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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01-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #85
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You do realize that's what the GM of this club said about him, right? Not to mention that it was pretty clear the players on this team didn't think too highly of Cody based on all the little things they said about him.
Yes I know what Gillis said and it sounded more to me a covering of his tracks then anything. Also what little things were said by the players? The only thing I remember is everyone blowing out of propostion the Taped C.

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01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
  #86
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First of all, if you're not going to give Crawford credit for feeding the Sedins icetime and being the first person to give icetime to Kesler and Burrows I think you have selective memory.
So the 14:00 per game of ice time and 10:00 per game of ice time that Kesler and Burrows got respectively in 2005-06 was such a boon to their development that it turned them into impact players at the NHL level years later - and not the 16 and 11 they got the next year, or the 19 and 15 they got the year after that?

And surely not the time they spent in Manitoba that year playing for AV, either.

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Second of all, Burrows and Kesler were given opportunity by AV in a time where there was a talent vacuum here. Who else was going to get played? Cowan?
So who else was Marc Crawford supposed to play over the Sedins? Hell, who was he supposed to play over Kesler and Burrows? Josh Green, Richard Park, Nathan Smith?

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01-21-2013, 04:32 PM
  #87
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AV did mould Grabner into an NHLer... Gillis traded him.
AV mould Grabner into a NHL player by benching him the rest of the game for not scoring after 1 period.

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01-21-2013, 04:43 PM
  #88
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Yes I know what Gillis said and it sounded more to me a covering of his tracks then anything. Also what little things were said by the players? The only thing I remember is everyone blowing out of propostion the Taped C.
Sounds like you are only going to hear what you want.

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01-21-2013, 04:45 PM
  #89
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AV mould Grabner into a NHL player by benching him the rest of the game for not scoring after 1 period.
This thread should be renamed the Windmills Thread.

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01-21-2013, 04:52 PM
  #90
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He's clearly giving Kassian the shaft by giving him shifts with the Twins and some time in OT. In fact Kassian had more ice time than Ebbet, Volpatti, Weisse and Malhotra even though he missed a shift or two because of his fight. I believe he was also scheduled to be the 3rd shootout shooter.

Perhaps AV just hates 19-20 year olds because he appears to be giving a 21 year old every opportunity to make an impact.

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01-21-2013, 06:26 PM
  #91
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He's clearly giving Kassian the shaft by giving him shifts with the Twins and some time in OT. In fact Kassian had more ice time than Ebbet, Volpatti, Weisse and Malhotra even though he missed a shift or two because of his fight. I believe he was also scheduled to be the 3rd shootout shooter.

Perhaps AV just hates 19-20 year olds because he appears to be giving a 21 year old every opportunity to make an impact.
That was one game, and this is AV we're talking about. I bet he sees under 10 minutes vs the Flames, for some stupid reason. Probably will give Raymond 15+ mins.

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01-24-2013, 12:01 AM
  #92
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That was one game, and this is AV we're talking about. I bet he sees under 10 minutes vs the Flames, for some stupid reason. Probably will give Raymond 15+ mins.
20mins for Kassian along with top unit PP time and a shoot out winner.
15 mins for Schroeder in his first NHL game including 2nd unit PP time.


Anyone want to still defend the ridiculous notion that AV hates skill and youth?

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01-24-2013, 12:03 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
20mins for Kassian along with top unit PP time and a shoot out winner.
15 mins for Schroeder in his first NHL game including 2nd unit PP time.


Anyone want to still defend the ridiculous notion that AV hates skill and youth?
But he hates rookies because I say so, dammit!

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01-24-2013, 03:12 AM
  #94
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Ballard got 17:50 in icetime tonight. This compressed season is making AV loopy in the head.

Edit - I should say that I thought Ballard used his time well.

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01-24-2013, 04:22 AM
  #95
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Ballard got 17:50 in icetime tonight. This compressed season is making AV loopy in the head.

Edit - I should say that I thought Ballard used his time well.
Well, it was a 65-minute game...that said, that could go a long way in that our top 4 defenders aren't tired by season's end.

I thought Ballard had an OK game. A few mistakes, but nothing drastically head-shaking.

Garrison-Edler had more than it's fair share of gaffes. One fellow beside me pointed out something I've just noticed recently...Edler is absolutely terrible at holding the line. 90% of the time it seemed like the puck was on it's way out when Edler tried to keep a cycle alive.

Schroeder looked like a small rookie with great vision. Basically as advertised. There were a few times where Flames' d-men absolutely man-handled him and a few times where I was impressed with his board-play. Also seems to me like a high-risk player. He was the last man back and made a move to get around a forechecker, and also made a sweet no-look pass BEHIND him to Lapierre I think in the defensive end and it went on his tape. His defensive positioning and awareness was competent which is why I think AV liked him. But that penalty...man that was a dumb one to take. More of flaws though seemed like a lack of NHL experience other than anything.

And as I keep saying, Mason Raymond is a good hockey player. I still have no idea what Weise was doing on that line. He was good at keeping plays alive when they shouldn't have been but offensively he looked lost compared to Mason and Jordan.

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01-24-2013, 04:35 AM
  #96
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I still have no idea what Weise was doing on that line. He was good at keeping plays alive when they shouldn't have been but offensively he looked lost compared to Mason and Jordan.
I think Weise is just trying to do too much.
He wants to show that he can be better than a 4th liner after his offensive explosion in the Netherlands, and that is the problem.
He seems tense out there, and he is gripping too hard on the stick, which causes his shots to go all over the place.
He definitely has promise, but he needs to loosen up.

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01-24-2013, 05:23 AM
  #97
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I think Weise is just trying to do too much.
He wants to show that he can be better than a 4th liner after his offensive explosion in the Netherlands, and that is the problem.
He seems tense out there, and he is gripping too hard on the stick, which causes his shots to go all over the place.
He definitely has promise, but he needs to loosen up.
He needs to drive the net on that line, he has excellent hands in close.

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01-24-2013, 06:44 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
20mins for Kassian along with top unit PP time and a shoot out winner.
15 mins for Schroeder in his first NHL game including 2nd unit PP time.


Anyone want to still defend the ridiculous notion that AV hates skill and youth?
Seeing Schroeder out there later in the 3rd of a tie game and then again once in overtime honestly shocked me. As did the minutes as a whole in his first NHL game.


But you're really changing the narrative there when discussing Kassian. He doesn't even slightly fit the 'small non-physical skill player' mold. Nobody has ever contested that AV likes big physical youngsters.

Schroeder's minutes were genuinely surprising tonight though. Especially in light of getting physically dominated early and then taking a bad penalty. Most of our prior skilled offensive prospects would've never seen the ice again for years.

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01-24-2013, 12:31 PM
  #99
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Seeing Schroeder out there later in the 3rd of a tie game and then again once in overtime honestly shocked me. As did the minutes as a whole in his first NHL game.


But you're really changing the narrative there when discussing Kassian. He doesn't even slightly fit the 'small non-physical skill player' mold. Nobody has ever contested that AV likes big physical youngsters.

Schroeder's minutes were genuinely surprising tonight though. Especially in light of getting physically dominated early and then taking a bad penalty. Most of our prior skilled offensive prospects would've never seen the ice again for years.
Ha, I'm the one changing the narrative?

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01-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #100
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I dont think he hates young players but he does think it's funny to piss away points.. hence his post game comments about taking so long to use Kassian in the shootout.

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