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The 1995 and 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings

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Old
04-19-2015, 08:33 AM
  #1
Jasonthegreat
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The 1995 and 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and this is my first topic on this site.

I've had a fascination on the Detroit Red Wings teams of 1995 (1994-95) and 1995-96. Looking at these two teams, they were similar in a way: a largely finesse team that was learning to play defense, winning the Presidents' trophy both years, but were unable to accomplish the ultimate goal: the Stanley cup. In 1995, they won their first presidents trophy with a 33-11-4 record (70 points/48 games ,which would equate to a record of 56-19-7/119 over an 82-game schedule). In the playoffs, they totally blow past Dallas, San Jose, and Chicago to reach the Stanley Cup final for the first time since 1966. It looked like the Wings, 40 years after winning their last Stanley cup, it looked like they would finally win it again. But they lose 4-0 to New Jersey and were out scored 16-7.

In 1996, the season starts with the Steve Yzerman trade rumors, but he stays put and the Wings set a record for most wins in a season with 62. I recall that at the beginning of the 1996 playoffs, the Red Wings were still an unhappy team despite setting the record for wins. Then, unlike the '95 playoffs, the Wings struggle to get past the Winnipeg Jets and the St. Louis Blues, with the Wings only surviving on Yzerman's double OT goal in game 7. Their demise finally came in the semifinals, where they lost to the Colorado Avalanche in six games.

Anyway, what baffles me is this: how could the Red Wings be so good of a team during both seasons and still fail to win the Stanley Cup? Obviously, I've learned over the years that regular season stats mean absolutely nothing come playoff time, but you could clearly see after their loss in the '96 playoffs, something was still missing.

My final question is this: could the Red Wings have won the Stanley Cup in either or both years if they had acquired Brendan Shanahan and Larry Murphy, among others that helped out in their 97 and 98 championships seasons in 1994/95?

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04-19-2015, 10:43 AM
  #2
the edler
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Team had to fine tune some things. Players like Fedorov and Lidström didn't have to "learn to play defense", though. They could. In 96, if Detroit gets by the Avs it's a given Cup, that was the real final. But Colorado had a really, really strong team with a few great players going on high cylinders.

As for 96, team could have gotten better secondary scoring from a guy like Primeau. 1 goal in 17 games is not brilliant.

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04-19-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Team had to fine tune some things. Players like Fedorov and Lidström didn't have to "learn to play defense", though. They could. In 96, if Detroit gets by the Avs it's a given Cup, that was the real final. But Colorado had a really, really strong team with a few great players going on high cylinders.

As for 96, team could have gotten better secondary scoring from a guy like Primeau. 1 goal in 17 games is not brilliant.
To add: The Red Wings were 2nd in GA in 94/95, 2 back of 1st place Chicago, and were 1st in 95/96, 21 ahead of 2nd place New Jersey. And I think most would say their goaltending was about average or maybe a little above average. They were a dominant defensive team, with Coffey/Lidstrom/Fetisov/Konstantinov on D and 3 Selke winners at centre. And I don't think finesse is a good descriptor either.

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04-19-2015, 04:32 PM
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You have to remember, the Wings had a bit of a reputation of being soft and not able to get over the hump prior to.............that 1997 blood bath with Colorado. Honestly, a lot changed once that brawl happened and the Wings left the Avalanche players bloodied. It showed they could play any type of game. They just seemed more well rounded by then and almost as if they were gearing up more for the postseason. Not everyone can be the 1970s Habs and blow by everyone in the regular season and the playoffs. I think the Wings added some character for 1996-'97 and like someone else said, lost some dead weight like Primeau.

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04-19-2015, 08:18 PM
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EpochLink
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The Wings swapped Primeau/Coffey for Shanahan/Murphy.

Those two deals got them over the top in 1997.

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04-19-2015, 09:53 PM
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Both eliminations were devastating and inexplicable at the time. On paper the Wings were 10x better than the Devils. "You can't trap what you can't catch," Bowman proclaimed. Yet caught they were. The Devils were all over them, not letting them do anything at all. The only player who put any pressure on Brodeur was, of course, Fedorov.

In 96 they did run into trouble early on. Khabibulin stood on his head, making it difficult. Then they blew a 3-0 series lead to St. Louis, and things just starting coming apart. Then they faced a superb Avs team with Roy smelling blood.

Still... should've been a dynasty

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04-19-2015, 10:14 PM
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New Jersey played their game to perfection and the Wings could barely even gain the zone in the '95 Finals. They might have made a series out of it anyway if they had hung on to win Game 2, but they choked it away late, and were not competitive in any of the other three.

After the historic '96 regular season, they indeed struggled in all three playoff series. After they were eliminated, it felt like they'd never get over the hump. If a 62 win team isn't good enough, what does it take?!, etc.

'97 was the best surprise ever. Can't imagine anything ever being more satisfying as a fan.

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04-19-2015, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
The Wings swapped Primeau/Coffey for Shanahan/Murphy.

Those two deals got them over the top in 1997.
Primeau and Coffey were for Shanahan. I still can't stand Primeau for that trade alone. Coffey didn't want to leave, but Primeau held out (he was a lot like Yashin that way, terrible playoff performer, big head) and the Wings traded him but needed Coffey in order to get Shanahan. As for Murphy, that was at the trade deadline and I remember Toronto basically running Murphy out of town, which I didn't like. The Wings gave up "future considerations" for him. To be quite honest, I don't think that ever ended up being anyone according to hockeyreference.com. If that's true, the Wings got Murphy for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Both eliminations were devastating and inexplicable at the time. On paper the Wings were 10x better than the Devils. "You can't trap what you can't catch," Bowman proclaimed. Yet caught they were. The Devils were all over them, not letting them do anything at all. The only player who put any pressure on Brodeur was, of course, Fedorov.

In 96 they did run into trouble early on. Khabibulin stood on his head, making it difficult. Then they blew a 3-0 series lead to St. Louis, and things just starting coming apart. Then they faced a superb Avs team with Roy smelling blood.

Still... should've been a dynasty
Actually, the Blues kept the series close the whole time, they were never down 3-0. They were actually up 3-2 in the series going back to St. Louis. They lost in St. Louis, and then lost in Game 7 on Yzerman's goal. It was a close call. Then everyone thought they were in the clear after Yzerman's goal, but it was just delayed a couple of weeks until they got put out.

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04-19-2015, 10:25 PM
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Actually, the Blues kept the series close the whole time, they were never down 3-0. They were actually up 3-2 in the series going back to St. Louis. They lost in St. Louis, and then lost in Game 7 on Yzerman's goal. It was a close call.
FWIW, the Blues looked dead in the water after being routed in Game 2 and going down 0-2. But they survived a back and forth Game 3, winning on an Igor Kravchuk OT goal from the point, and the momentum swung in their favor. They then won the next two games to take the 3-2 series lead before Detroit came back and finished them off.

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04-20-2015, 01:16 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You have to remember, the Wings had a bit of a reputation of being soft and not able to get over the hump prior to.............that 1997 blood bath with Colorado. Honestly, a lot changed once that brawl happened and the Wings left the Avalanche players bloodied. It showed they could play any type of game. They just seemed more well rounded by then and almost as if they were gearing up more for the postseason. Not everyone can be the 1970s Habs and blow by everyone in the regular season and the playoffs. I think the Wings added some character for 1996-'97 and like someone else said, lost some dead weight like Primeau.
Getting rid of another head case (Ray Sheppard) also helped. Getting Igor Larionov for Sheppard is a forgotten robbery. Too bad we had to lose Dino because of the waiver rules tho. One our best playoff performers during '95 and '96. The emergance of Martin Lapointe off set that loss tho and later on Holmström. People also forget an important two-way agitator added in '97 for Greg Johnson, Tomas Sandström.

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04-20-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Getting rid of another head case (Ray Sheppard) also helped. Getting Igor Larionov for Sheppard is a forgotten robbery. Too bad we had to lose Dino because of the waiver rules tho. One our best playoff performers during '95 and '96. The emergance of Martin Lapointe off set that loss tho and later on Holmström. People also forget an important two-way agitator added in '97 for Greg Johnson, Tomas Sandström.
Don't forget that in the '95 and '96 seasons, Scotty Bowman was teaching the Red Wings how to play defense (the left wing lock) and in both seasons, they still had several players who were not capable of playing defense. Obviously, Coffey, Ciccarelli, Sheppard, and Primeau had problems with Bowman, and as a result, they were gone by '97.

I think personally, that Bowman was trying to find the players who could play defense and fight for loose pucks, mucking it out in the corners. In '95 and '96, most of the Red Wings players were not capable of doing that. However, players like Maltby, Shanahan, McCarty, Sandstrom, and Aaron Ward could do that.

One more point, the Wings at the time were a team that had a reputation of being good enough to be a great regular season team, but always losing in the first round of the playoffs; in other words, not good enough to go all the way. For instance, in '93 and '94, the Wings didn't play defense and they had mediocre goaltending, which cost them against both Toronto and San Jose. In fact, I even feel that if the Wings had beaten San Jose in '94, they probably would have lost in the second round.

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04-20-2015, 02:07 PM
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The teams those clubs lost to weren't exactly chopped liver. Both the Avs and Devils would go on to win multiple cups in the next ten years.

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04-20-2015, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Getting rid of another head case (Ray Sheppard) also helped. Getting Igor Larionov for Sheppard is a forgotten robbery. Too bad we had to lose Dino because of the waiver rules tho. One our best playoff performers during '95 and '96. The emergance of Martin Lapointe off set that loss tho and later on Holmström. People also forget an important two-way agitator added in '97 for Greg Johnson, Tomas Sandström.
Ray Sheppard was a head case?

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04-20-2015, 05:25 PM
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Ray Sheppard was a head case?
Yup. Superstar ego, decent player. Not a good combination.

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04-21-2015, 09:33 AM
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I agree with most of the comments in here. In '95 they simply ran into a New Jersey team that was playing some of the best defensive hockey I've ever seen. The Wings were no slouches in that department either, but New Jersey was much better prepared to wait for their offensive opportunities rather than trying to press and make them happen. Detroit tried to press, and skated right into the trap again, and again, and again (as Sentinel said, only Fedorov really managed to break through). The '97, '98, or '02 Wings *might* have had the experience to take those sort of games, but the '95 Wings did not. New Jersey just played awesome, and the Wings weren't ready of it. (Two years later the Wings would flip this script on Philly).

'96 reminded me much more of '93 and '94. The Wings played tentative from the start. After crushing everyone for most of the year, suddenly the games got tight, and as the games got tight, so did the Wings. Their defense played back a step or two compared to how they'd challenged things in the regular season, and the Wings just never looked in control. It felt like they were in panic mode if they weren't up a goal or two 15 minutes into the game. They had enough talent to still pull through the first two rounds, but once they ran into an equally talented Colorado it was all over.

I'd say the biggest thing that changed in '97 was the Wings' patience. That was the year they really figured out they could win any kind of game, including the close ones. In '97, when things got tight or when the Wings fell behind, they just tightened up on the left wing lock and had the confidence that if they kept at it, scoring opportunities would come. The new blood (Shanny, Murphey, even Kocur) certainly contributed, but I think more than anything it was just finally having enough experience to be completely confident in tight games and series.

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04-21-2015, 10:32 AM
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Yup. Superstar ego, decent player. Not a good combination.
Ah, I see. Didn't know that about him. All I remember him for was his caterpillar-like skating speed and that he scored 50 goals once.

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04-21-2015, 11:08 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Primeau and Coffey were for Shanahan. I still can't stand Primeau for that trade alone. Coffey didn't want to leave, but Primeau held out (he was a lot like Yashin that way, terrible playoff performer, big head) and the Wings traded him but needed Coffey in order to get Shanahan. As for Murphy, that was at the trade deadline and I remember Toronto basically running Murphy out of town, which I didn't like. The Wings gave up "future considerations" for him. To be quite honest, I don't think that ever ended up being anyone according to hockeyreference.com. If that's true, the Wings got Murphy for free.
i think the cost for murphy was just paying out his contract.

i've never heard before that coffey would have stayed if they didn't need him to balance out the deal. i always thought it was because bowman didn't like his game (traded him in pittsburgh too, of course). if true, what a shame. for his magical '95 season alone, coffey deserved his name on one last cup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overg View Post
I agree with most of the comments in here. In '95 they simply ran into a New Jersey team that was playing some of the best defensive hockey I've ever seen. The Wings were no slouches in that department either, but New Jersey was much better prepared to wait for their offensive opportunities rather than trying to press and make them happen. Detroit tried to press, and skated right into the trap again, and again, and again (as Sentinel said, only Fedorov really managed to break through). The '97, '98, or '02 Wings *might* have had the experience to take those sort of games, but the '95 Wings did not. New Jersey just played awesome, and the Wings weren't ready of it. (Two years later the Wings would flip this script on Philly).

'96 reminded me much more of '93 and '94. The Wings played tentative from the start. After crushing everyone for most of the year, suddenly the games got tight, and as the games got tight, so did the Wings. Their defense played back a step or two compared to how they'd challenged things in the regular season, and the Wings just never looked in control. It felt like they were in panic mode if they weren't up a goal or two 15 minutes into the game. They had enough talent to still pull through the first two rounds, but once they ran into an equally talented Colorado it was all over.

I'd say the biggest thing that changed in '97 was the Wings' patience. That was the year they really figured out they could win any kind of game, including the close ones. In '97, when things got tight or when the Wings fell behind, they just tightened up on the left wing lock and had the confidence that if they kept at it, scoring opportunities would come. The new blood (Shanny, Murphey, even Kocur) certainly contributed, but I think more than anything it was just finally having enough experience to be completely confident in tight games and series.
yeah, joey kocur was no small thing. a terrifying guy: greatest one-puncher in history to add to the blood feud against colorado, plus he was a solid regular shift contributor to the excellent grind line mk1.

kocur did more for the wings than his star cousin a few years later.

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04-21-2015, 11:08 AM
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Ah, I see. Didn't know that about him. All I remember him for was his caterpillar-like skating speed and that he scored 50 goals once.
I've didn't recall the attitude problems either. As for the scoring and skating ability, this may be my favorite NHL highlight of all time . . .

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=185767

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04-21-2015, 01:24 PM
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I've didn't recall the attitude problems either. As for the scoring and skating ability, this may be my favorite NHL highlight of all time . . .

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=185767
Now THAT is something right out of a pick-up game. Hilarious.

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04-21-2015, 01:41 PM
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The teams those clubs lost to weren't exactly chopped liver. Both the Avs and Devils would go on to win multiple cups in the next ten years.
Yup. Sometimes great teams lose to great teams.

The Orr/ Esposito Bruins only got 2 Cups because of Montreal/Philly.

The Wings won a couple of Cups with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny, Lids And followed it up with another after the first core left except Lidstrom with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They have nothing to be ashamed of. Making the playoffs, conference finals, President's trophies, finals appearances are also success even the years you don't win a Cup. 30 teams... It is darn hard to win the Cup.

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04-21-2015, 02:43 PM
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The Devil and Avalanche had very strong teams. I think the Devils matched up real well with the Wings.

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04-21-2015, 04:15 PM
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i think the cost for murphy was just paying out his contract.

i've never heard before that coffey would have stayed if they didn't need him to balance out the deal. i always thought it was because bowman didn't like his game (traded him in pittsburgh too, of course). if true, what a shame. for his magical '95 season alone, coffey deserved his name on one last cup.
Well Primeau wanted out so he went to Hartford with Coffey - who didn't want out - in order to get Shanahan. Bowman did seem to want to get rid of Coffey for whatever reason, I never understood it and there is nothing that says they don't win with Coffey regardless.

As for the other Wings. Sheppard just never really seemed to fit in on that team from what I thought, neither did Primeau. I know Ciccarelli was traded after 1996 but in all honesty I could have totally seen him on those championship teams in 1997 and 1998. He was a hothead, but he wasn't a guy you ever thought you couldn't win with. I mean, 73 career playoff goals.

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04-21-2015, 05:11 PM
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Well I'll start off with 96. They definitely could have beaten Colorado. It was really a matter of losing Games 1 & 4 (which put Detroit down 1-3). The Wings won Game 5 at home handily but going back to Colorado still down a game was too much. If it's Detroit that takes Game 1, who knows how the series shapes out? You win 62 games in the regular season and lose the first two games in a series at home, that's momentum swing if there ever was one and Detroit still played hard in Colorado.

Now 95 is tricky. I think Detroit played hard in the first two games and could have won both. Obviously due to the tough defense and going to Jersey down 0-2 in the series they flat-lined.




As far as team problems on defense or goal-tending? Detroit had neither of those issues. It was a top team that could have won both years. Personnel changes were made because they didn't win, but it doesn't mean guys like Coffey or Ciccarelli were holding the team back.

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04-22-2015, 12:03 AM
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Well Primeau wanted out so he went to Hartford with Coffey - who didn't want out - in order to get Shanahan. Bowman did seem to want to get rid of Coffey for whatever reason, I never understood it and there is nothing that says they don't win with Coffey regardless.

As for the other Wings. Sheppard just never really seemed to fit in on that team from what I thought, neither did Primeau. I know Ciccarelli was traded after 1996 but in all honesty I could have totally seen him on those championship teams in 1997 and 1998. He was a hothead, but he wasn't a guy you ever thought you couldn't win with. I mean, 73 career playoff goals.
Coffey was losing his step. And it was a good thing he was traded when he was.

I remember the Dino deal where he was let go because of the waiver rules. Bowman said it was diffficult to let a player go who would end up in hhof. Dino however was ranting about Bowman being an ass.

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04-24-2015, 10:04 AM
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Those where 2 great teams but they where missing something, turns out Shanahan was that something and he helped them to the Cup in 1997, 1998 and 2002.

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