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Old
01-20-2013, 12:44 AM
  #51
Jurky
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
The same game where Howard couldn't stop a beach ball, Datsyuk couldn't shoot and when he tried, he was 36 feet too high and wide, Zetterberg couldn't skate or keep the puck on stick to save the world, Smith was lost and confused and our best player was Tootoo because he atleast showed a little emotion and heart.

Strip Z of the C, because the whole team was bad and a complete mess. If anything, Holland was a genius for NOT playing Nyquist and Tatar because their lightweight frames would have got DESTROYED!

That game?
Wow I just read your summation of the game and I know realize there is no point arguing with you.

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01-20-2013, 12:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Awful as KQ was he led the entire ****ing team in icetime.


Damien Brunner played 18:50...
That's funny and insane. On both counts.

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01-20-2013, 12:51 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by optimuspaul View Post
Wow I just read your summation of the game and I know realize there is no point arguing with you.
Says the guy who wanted to sign Alaxander Semin, the "40 goal scorer" that nobody else wanted...

Don't quit your day job, let the DRWs brass make the big decisions and you do whatever it is you do that is obviously not pro hockey related.

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01-20-2013, 12:55 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Says the guy who wanted to sign Alaxander Semin, the "40 goal scorer" that nobody else wanted...

Don't quit your day job, let the DRWs brass make the big decisions and you do whatever it is you do that is obviously not pro hockey related.
what's with you KH fans?

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01-20-2013, 12:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
I dont get it? Quincey got completely burned twice by a rookie.

And I'm not sure which game you were watching because Howard made a lot of great saves, granted he struggled on the breakaways, two of which were completely Quincey's fault. Zetterberg's skating was the best it's been in in a year or so.

Or maybe Gus and Tats would be able to skate past them or make a smart play. It's not all about size ya' know.
Yup, and so did Howard. KQ reminded me of last year's Stuart. He better pull his head out of his ass.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk both looked slow. Datsyuk was losing 1-on-1 battles and couldn't even shoot the puck with any bit of accuracy.

The entire team was bad, you can point your finger at one player if you want, but at the end of the day, Zetterberg and Datsyuk are paid almost $14 million combined and didn't even score a point combined. Losing 21-0 doesn't mean anything if the offense refuses to show up.

The entire team was bad. They need to gel.

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01-20-2013, 01:01 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
what's with you KH fans?
I'm a fan of my team, what's your excuse? You already proven you'd run the franchise in the ground if you had any authority. I'll stick with proven winners, thanks

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01-20-2013, 01:08 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
I'm a fan of my team, what's your excuse? You already proven you'd run the franchise in the ground if you had any authority. I'll stick with proven winners, thanks
I'm a fan of my team being good, what's your excuse? Coming up with apologies for bad decisions that lead to weak teams getting bounced decisively and early in the playoffs and losing 6-0 to St. Louis?

Oh, okay. As long as we're clear.

This D is weak, we knew that going in, we got it confirmed today. All there is to it. You can stick your head in the sand and say that past successes means immunity from criticism now, or you can be an adult and evaluate decisions as they come up. Like throwing away a first rounder on Kyle Freaking Quincey. A guy who has shown he is just not good enough. Resigning Bert. Keeping Cleary. Bringing Sammy back. When we have good talent down in the AHL just itching to get a shot at the big time. Oh lordy.

You keep being satisfied with a team that is absolutely not a contender for a cup. I'll keep pushing for decisions that make the team competitive. I'm sure that means I'm not a fan of the team. Because I actually want to see them improve and win something instead of languish in mediocrity. Right.

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01-20-2013, 01:14 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Remains to be seen if Smith will be a bright spot.
But I think we need to give him every opportunity. In fact, he should have left college a year earlier and started last year in the NHL with guys like Lidstrom and Stuart to tutor him.
You know I wanted him up last year so he could benefit from a team that still had Lids (and Stu), but more importantly... it was well-greased. You learn better from things that work than those that don't work.

I'm fairly comfortable in saying he's going to be a bonafide top four, as he's already got a better set of tools and skating than most of the guys on the team now. I hope he's going to be great top 2 at least, but some smarts come into play here. Right now, he's still too excited, and too raw to realistically judge the mental side of his game. I look at this way. At his age, it's easier to teach him how to view the game, the tricks to look for, the angles and positioning than it is to refine his skating and shooting and passing. He has that stuff down, imo.


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Instead, he's learning from Kyle Quincey.
It's astounding to me that a guy can play as poorly as KQ did tonight and lead the team in icetime.
Yes, but what you aren't considering is that he's the only guy on the team right now that routinely plays all situations. He may not be the best PP guy, but he can play on the PP. He may not be the best PK guy, but you can put him on a PK unit. You can also use him as a top four ES guy. Now, obviously Kronwall is the better defenseman, and he too plays all situations, but Babs may be ramping him up. Normally, you have your top minutes eaters going 24+ min per game. The one thing that having CC and White around is that you can rest the other guys up a bit more and spread the minutes out more among the three units vs focusing on your top four.

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And yes, this year's roster is a direct result of 3 years of Ken Holland kicking the roster transition the can down the road.

And, if you think it looks bad now... wait until next year.
Nah, I think this year will be bad enough. Fortunately, it's only a partial year.

I'm looking forward to the buyouts that will need to happen around the league.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Ericsson has never been GREAT at anytime in his career.
He's an average defenseman at best who will always be at a disadvantage because he learned the position so late.
I have to believe this a Babs' Big Body requirement.

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Any idea what the Red Wings goal differential has been since KQ joined the team?
That's a bit unfair though. They traded for Q probably because they were screwed defensively. Wasn't most of the top half of the line up out with injuries when he showed up? The worst two months of the Wings' record last year would still have been the worst two months had they not traded for Q at that time. Heck, it could have been worse.

We both predicted a fairly poor playoff result, but that too wasn't because they added Quincey. That old roster was just that-- old, predictable, everyone knew their tricks and the team had no answer for that.

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Old
01-20-2013, 01:15 AM
  #59
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Guys-- knock off the personal stuff and get back to discussing hockey.


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Old
01-20-2013, 01:24 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
I'm a fan of my team being good, what's your excuse? Coming up with apologies for bad decisions that lead to weak teams getting bounced decisively and early in the playoffs and losing 6-0 to St. Louis?

Oh, okay. As long as we're clear.

This D is weak, we knew that going in, we got it confirmed today. All there is to it. You can stick your head in the sand and say that past successes means immunity from criticism now, or you can be an adult and evaluate decisions as they come up. Like throwing away a first rounder on Kyle Freaking Quincey. A guy who has shown he is just not good enough. Resigning Bert. Keeping Cleary. Bringing Sammy back. When we have good talent down in the AHL just itching to get a shot at the big time. Oh lordy.
Wings lost one game... MOD

You want to criticize one player, but refuse to acknowledge the entire team played bad starting with the Captain on down to the rookie Smith. Everyone was bad. Howard was horrific and definitely not top 5, let alone top 15 material in the NHL. Gus was better.

Bert didn't even play, but if he did over Mursak, maybe Detroit wouldn't have gotten pushed around as much. Sammy is atleast bigger and can shoot. You want to replace him with a tiny Nyquist? Nyquist and Tatar would have gotten KILLED out there.

The problem with people is they think things are magic, like GMs can magically override the salary cap, or draft Crosby's and Lidstrom's with 7th round picks every year.

Wings found themselves in the situation for two reasons 1. Success. 2. Salary cap.

People think you can just offer $200 million to Parise and Suter and don't think ahead. They want to win now and cry later, then fire Holland for signing Suter and Parise. It's dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Holland is doing this the right way, the way I would do it and the way it should be done. He is rebuilding on the fly with the idea if they make the playoffs, they atleast have a chance. Do this while building talent in the farm. It makes perfect sense and I'm sure everyone in the office is 100% onboard.

As far as Quincey, he is what he is. He is bad some nights and brilliant other nights. He needs to get comfortable and find his groove. That is his problem right now.... the entire team needs to find their groove, and fast!


Last edited by Fugu: 01-20-2013 at 01:37 AM. Reason: I won't say it again
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01-20-2013, 01:31 AM
  #61
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wow, i always though i am the guy here getting flamed for critism the red wings roster and ken holland.
but i have to admit that here are some persons who are taking the whole fan thing a bit to serious. it is close to fanatics. this loss is not the end of the world. compared to the other teams we are no longer the best but i guess we can make it to the play offs once again.

lets say the team sucked really bad the first game. i see only a declined team from the last season at the moment. but maybe they will improve the next games.
dats and zetta cant play that bad all season long.
next opponent is cbs. lets see how we can handle their "offensive" game.

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01-20-2013, 01:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post

The thing is KQ wasn't bad with use during his first stint, he was clearly better than Lebda and HFboards had a 500 INTERNAL SERVER ERROR when Holland waived him. Fans were pissed.

Then he goes to LA and was great. Then moved to Avs and was solid, but inconsistent. The problem is KQ is still adjusting to his teammates and style. I expect nothing less from CC. Even if Suter came here he'd look shaky for awhile too. Players need to gel.
Quincey played fairly well in a series where he skated well, didn't make mistakes, banged the puck off the boards and out.
He could have learned a lot playing third pairing minutes, learning to be smart from Lidstrom and tough from Stuart.

Instead, he went to LA, which desperately gave him top minutes...
And now he thinks he's some kind of offensive defensemen.

He got owned tonight. Blame it on chemistry if you want, but this guy has sucked. Colorado dumped him for a reason. It ain't like he was going to break the bank and Colorado had a ton of great defensemen on the way.

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01-20-2013, 01:55 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

He got owned tonight. Blame it on chemistry if you want, but this guy has sucked. Colorado dumped him for a reason. It ain't like he was going to break the bank and Colorado had a ton of great defensemen on the way.

Do you think any other defenseman on the Wings would have done a better job defending against Tarasenko in those situations?

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01-20-2013, 01:57 AM
  #64
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Do you think any other defenseman on the Wings would have done a better job defending against Tarasenko in those situations?
Could they have done any worse?

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01-20-2013, 02:00 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Are you talking about Alexander Semin, the guy from Washington that nobody wanted????

Really, Semin??? Nobody ****ing wanted him - why can't you get that?
This isn't my battle to fight, but you are making a fool of yourself here. Players that "nobody wants" don't get paid $7M.

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01-20-2013, 02:04 AM
  #66
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You know I wanted him up last year so he could benefit from a team that still had Lids (and Stu), but more importantly... it was well-greased. You learn better from things that work than those that don't work.

I'm fairly comfortable in saying he's going to be a bonafide top four, as he's already got a better set of tools and skating than most of the guys on the team now. I hope he's going to be great top 2 at least, but some smarts come into play here. Right now, he's still too excited, and too raw to realistically judge the mental side of his game. I look at this way. At his age, it's easier to teach him how to view the game, the tricks to look for, the angles and positioning than it is to refine his skating and shooting and passing. He has that stuff down, imo.
I think he'll be a top 4 guy. But we've got Ericsson and Quincey in our top 4... so that's not saying much.
The problem I see is defensive awareness and careless mistakes. Awareness comes with time but Jesus
Brendan Smith is about to turn 24. Jiri Fischer had like 250 games or so under his belt on his 24th birthday.
I think Smith is always going to have challenges in his own end. The question will be, is he going to be a 15 goal 45 assist man? Or an 8 goal 30 assist man?



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Yes, but what you aren't considering is that he's the only guy on the team right now that routinely plays all situations. He may not be the best PP guy, but he can play on the PP. He may not be the best PK guy, but you can put him on a PK unit.
And that's why this is a team that lost 6-0.
Our defense is brutal.

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You can also use him as a top four ES guy. Now, obviously Kronwall is the better defenseman, and he too plays all situations, but Babs may be ramping him up. Normally, you have your top minutes eaters going 24+ min per game. The one thing that having CC and White around is that you can rest the other guys up a bit more and spread the minutes out more among the three units vs focusing on your top four.

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Nah, I think this year will be bad enough. Fortunately, it's only a partial year.

I'm looking forward to the buyouts that will need to happen around the league.
We;ll see.


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That's a bit unfair though. They traded for Q probably because they were screwed defensively. Wasn't most of the top half of the line up out with injuries when he showed up? The worst two months of the Wings' record last year would still have been the worst two months had they not traded for Q at that time. Heck, it could have been worse.
I don't think they would have been much worse. In fact, that was yet another opportunity to hand the keys to Smith.
Keep the first. Call up Smith.

Make a trade for a defenseman in the offseason or sign a legit UFA

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01-20-2013, 02:05 AM
  #67
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Do you think any other defenseman on the Wings would have done a better job defending against Tarasenko in those situations?
I can't imagine anyone doing worse.

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01-20-2013, 02:07 AM
  #68
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I can't imagine anyone doing worse.
You're not "really" answering the question.


Hey, maybe that's how a lot of defensemen around the league feel when Dats turns them inside out.

I'm not just trying to defend Q. Tarasenko is going to be a pretty exciting player to watch for years.

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01-20-2013, 02:09 AM
  #69
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I'm not just trying to defend Q. Tarasenko is going to be a pretty exciting player to watch for years.
That wasn't the only play where he made a questionable decision.

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01-20-2013, 02:12 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You're not "really" answering the question.


Hey, maybe that's how a lot of defensemen around the league feel when Dats turns them inside out.

I'm not just trying to defend Q. Tarasenko is going to be a pretty exciting player to watch for years.
I think he will be a good player. He already is.
But no, I don't think Ericsson, Kronwall or even CC or Ian White would have been turned inside-out by him.

That wasn't exactly a jawdropping move that Tarasenko pulled.

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01-20-2013, 02:15 AM
  #71
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I think he'll be a top 4 guy. But we've got Ericsson and Quincey in our top 4... so that's not saying much.
The problem I see is defensive awareness and careless mistakes. Awareness comes with time but Jesus
Brendan Smith is about to turn 24. Jiri Fischer had like 250 games or so under his belt on his 24th birthday.
I think Smith is always going to have challenges in his own end. The question will be, is he going to be a 15 goal 45 assist man? Or an 8 goal 30 assist man?
And that is NOT his fault, but fully the fault of Holland and his asset management under the cap. Fischer and Kronwall looked more raw when they got roster spots than Smith did last year. They were allowed to develop in the NHL. Then the geniuses decided to let Ericsson have 3 yrs of development, and held Kindl back and then held Smith back so that Kindl could get his shot. Meanwhile, a steady parade of over-the-hill defensemen were signed who played about 20 games between them...


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And that's why this is a team that lost 6-0.
Our defense is brutal.
So's our offense. How many shots on goal again? I mean hell, if you can't get a shot on goal, how are you going to get any goals?


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I don't think they would have been much worse. In fact, that was yet another opportunity to hand the keys to Smith.
Keep the first. Call up Smith.

Make a trade for a defenseman in the offseason or sign a legit UFA
Holland has become allergic to trades when the other guys want prospects, or heaven forbid--- a Wings roster guy. It's like all 22 guys are irreplaceable somehow.

Lately, he hasn't been able to make any UFA signings of note either.


Maybe it was Hossa. Here you had one of the top players in the game doing cartwheels to end up on your team, and in the end, Holland finds a way to keep the Wings 'committee' together and lets Hossa walk. I'm not really sure what it is, could be lots of things, but the past 3-ish years, no one we really want, wants to sign in Detroit.

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01-20-2013, 02:17 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
That wasn't the only play where he made a questionable decision.

I saw questionable plays and D out of position all night long. Quincey didn't lose that game for the Wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think he will be a good player. He already is.
But no, I don't think Ericsson, Kronwall or even CC or Ian White would have been turned inside-out by him.

That wasn't exactly a jawdropping move that Tarasenko pulled.

That's fine. I saw plenty of blunders from all of them, and it wasn't Tarasenko deking them out of their straps either.

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01-20-2013, 02:26 AM
  #73
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And that is NOT his fault, but fully the fault of Holland and his asset management under the cap. Fischer and Kronwall looked more raw when they got roster spots than Smith did last year. They were allowed to develop in the NHL. Then the geniuses decided to let Ericsson have 3 yrs of development, and held Kindl back and then held Smith back so that Kindl could get his shot. Meanwhile, a steady parade of over-the-hill defensemen were signed who played about 20 games between them...
Kronwall looked slick by the time he got to Detroit Fischer, however, was 19 and very raw.

Fischer was 21 years old the year the Wings won in 02. Amazing to me. He's 32. He could still have 5-6 more years of solid hockey.


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So's our offense. How many shots on goal again? I mean hell, if you can't get a shot on goal, how are you going to get any goals?
Understood.


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Holland has become allergic to trades when the other guys want prospects, or heaven forbid--- a Wings roster guy. It's like all 22 guys are irreplaceable somehow.

Lately, he hasn't been able to make any UFA signings of note either.
Old Junk Collector Holland...
Homer retires. Hudler takes off in free agency. Helm is hurt. Bertuzzi is out. Eaves is out.
And still, we can't make room for a rookie forward.



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Maybe it was Hossa. Here you had one of the top players in the game doing cartwheels to end up on your team, and in the end, Holland finds a way to keep the Wings 'committee' together and lets Hossa walk. I'm not really sure what it is, could be lots of things, but the past 3-ish years, no one we really want, wants to sign in Detroit.
I;m not sure whether Hossa would have helped us win.
But the dude was hungry. And I see a team that lacks hunger -- that lacks spirit -- that lacks toughness --- that lacks courage.

On top of that, we're smallish and not very fast. And...we lack shooting wingers.

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01-20-2013, 02:28 AM
  #74
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holland has lost his mojo. something seemed wrong when he let samuelsson hossa and hudler leave in the same offseason. then he completely struck out in free agency but thank god he didnt offer suter too much money because its always good to have 10 million in unspent cap space. he operates this team like its still 2008 and he has a stacked roster so theres no reason to spend too much on free agents.
and there is no reason smith couldnt have been on the team last year learning from lidstrom. babcock even said thats what he would have done if it was his decision, but no, holland likes his prospects "over-ripe". now we have nyquist rotting in grand rapids as if it would be a luxury to have any more talent on the team. ken will sit and watch this team slip right out of playoff contention as long as it means not trading or spending too much to make the team better.


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01-20-2013, 02:33 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
This isn't my battle to fight, but you are making a fool of yourself here. Players that "nobody wants" don't get paid $7M.
Nobody wanted him, based on his demands. So you are right and wrong at the same time. But mostly wrong. Many teams would have signed him at a more reasonable rate, but his demands were much higher. Which led to him not being wanted. Being passed over. Nobody was fighting for him or trying to outbid other teams for him. Finally, one team decided to take a chance on him.


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