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** Official 2013 Fire Sacco Thread: Part 1 **

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03-18-2013, 10:57 AM
  #701
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A question for everybody who wouldn't take Roy as the GM. Would you rather have PL still indirectly calling the shots or would you rather have Roy?
I would rather have Sherman as a GM than Roy. I don't think PL would indirectly be calling the shots less with Roy than with Sherman.

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03-18-2013, 10:59 AM
  #702
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I would rather have Sherman as a GM than Roy. I don't think PL would indirectly be calling the shots less with Roy than with Sherman.
I highly, highly doubt that Roy would let PL tell him what to do. Roy's ego is the size of Jupiter, he won't put that aside to please PL.

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03-18-2013, 11:00 AM
  #703
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I highly, highly doubt that Roy would let PL tell him what to do. Roy's ego is the size of Jupiter, he won't put that aside to please PL.
I don't really buy this whole thing about Roy, that he would act the way he did on the ice in the office as well. And if Roy gets both jobs, both GM and Coach. He will certainly allow some outside help.

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03-18-2013, 11:11 AM
  #704
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I don't really buy this whole thing about Roy, that he would act the way he did on the ice in the office as well. And if Roy gets both jobs, both GM and Coach. He will certainly allow some outside help.
Just look at how he runs the Ramparts. I'm not saying he wouldn't ask for help in areas, but he will not be told what to do or have his decisions overridden. I personally believe that Roy is a hell of a coach, and a very good talent evaluator. If the only way to get him (and some semi-fresh blood) into the organization is to give him some personnel power, do it.

BTW I am not on the fire Sherman train (just the fire Sacco). Sherman has done a decent job, but has a couple big failings. One is keeping Sacco this long. Two is this defense he has put together, it is flat out awful. If he doesn't improve both of those, he should probably be let go. So basically he needs to fire Sacco and replace him with a more competent coach (I don't see anybody within the organization). Then he needs to find a way to get another top 4 defensemen that isn't a pylon.

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03-18-2013, 11:20 AM
  #705
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I don't really buy this whole thing about Roy, that he would act the way he did on the ice in the office as well. And if Roy gets both jobs, both GM and Coach. He will certainly allow some outside help.
I think that Sherman was originally supposed to be Roy's assistant, like 3 years ago. He isn't a traditional GM, as he isn't a hockey guy. Most teams have a guy like Sherman, but he is behind the scenes. I think if Roy was brought in Sherman would stay, and do what he is good at. Negotiate deals and manage the business. Roy and our scouts would tell Sherman what to do, who to go after, and who to move. I think that is the ideal scenario.

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03-18-2013, 11:23 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
A question for everybody who wouldn't take Roy as the GM. Would you rather have PL still indirectly calling the shots or would you rather have Roy?
I want PL gone but I'd take the Sherman/PL combo over Roy. He should have some influence when it comes to player additions and moves but he shouldn't be the one who's calling the shots imo.

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03-18-2013, 11:25 AM
  #707
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Just look at how he runs the Ramparts. I'm not saying he wouldn't ask for help in areas, but he will not be told what to do or have his decisions overridden. I personally believe that Roy is a hell of a coach, and a very good talent evaluator. If the only way to get him (and some semi-fresh blood) into the organization is to give him some personnel power, do it.

BTW I am not on the fire Sherman train (just the fire Sacco). Sherman has done a decent job, but has a couple big failings. One is keeping Sacco this long. Two is this defense he has put together, it is flat out awful. If he doesn't improve both of those, he should probably be let go. So basically he needs to fire Sacco and replace him with a more competent coach (I don't see anybody within the organization). Then he needs to find a way to get another top 4 defensemen that isn't a pylon.
I don't believe it's 'actually' his decision to make and by NOT being able to make it, he's being setup as the 'fall-guy' regardless. A bottom five finish might very well seal his fate. If what I'm suggesting is indeed accurate, you can expect a "General Manager Greg Sherman has stepped down as GM of the team and will stay with the organization in another capacity" as opposed to an outright firing.

As you said, he doesn't deserve to be fired based on all we've seen but if his goal is to WIN hockey games, Joe Sacco as coach isn't cutting it and he's got to know that. That's why it's not his call and the Avs are keeping Sacco to secure another asset in a top draft pick.

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03-18-2013, 11:28 AM
  #708
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I think that Sherman was originally supposed to be Roy's assistant, like 3 years ago. He isn't a traditional GM, as he isn't a hockey guy. Most teams have a guy like Sherman, but he is behind the scenes. I think if Roy was brought in Sherman would stay, and do what he is good at. Negotiate deals and manage the business. Roy and our scouts would tell Sherman what to do, who to go after, and who to move. I think that is the ideal scenario.
Basically like it is now but with Roy instead of Sacco? Yes, that would be good. Billington needs to stay involved, though. I think he has done a very good job so far.

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03-18-2013, 11:30 AM
  #709
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I disagree. I believe that if you re-sign BOTH players to more reasonable cap hits, they will BOTH be more attractive if you want to trade them in a year or two or not at all.



You mean the Seattle Thunderbirds who have Steve Konowalchuk as their head coach?

Yeah, I've been TELLING you guys that Roy was gonna be the guy for a long time now, haven't I. Not sure about the GM title as well, but who knows...as others have mentioned, all GMs have assistants and he's been doing an AMAZING job with the Quebec Remparts with the dual role.



I disagree. Once we get rid of this coaching staff and bring in a WINNER (at least at 'some' level), you will see this team take off like the Blues did last year, I guarantee it.

Lacroix is using the EXACT same blueprint that helped him win 2 Stanley Cups after the Nordiques moved from Quebec to Colorado.

Top picks? Check!
1987 - Sakic 15th* (Dale Hunter trade with Washington)
1988 - Leschysyn 3rd
1989 - Sundin 1st | Foote 22nd
1990 - Nolan 1st
1991 - Lindros 1st
1992 - Warriner 4th

Horrible coach? Check!
Pierre Page

Take a look at the 1993-94 roster that MISSED the playoffs because of that ATROCITY of a head coach: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000471994.html

The very next season we went from out of the playoffs to 2nd overall in the league with Crawford coaching the team.

Top picks? Check!
2006 - Stewart 18th - Traded for EJ & Siemens
2007 - Shattenkirk 14th - Traded for EJ & Siemens
2009 - Duchene 3rd | O'Reilly 33rd
2010 - Hishon 17th
2011 - Landeskog 2nd | Siemens 11th
2013 - ?

Horrible coach? Check!
Joe Sacco

As long as the Avs do the right thing and bring in the right guy to move this team forward after this season is over, I'll be happy. I don't really care what happens with this season as long as it means we get another top 3 pick.

I'm a bit worried about Varly and that he must be pretty pissed about how this season has gone but if Patrick Roy becomes the next coach of this team, I think we'll see an unbelievable season out of that guy next year.
Bender you've been a Roy supporter for as long as I can remember, how would you describe him as a coach? I know he's fiery and competitive, but is he a good tactician? What kind of system does he run? His teams seem to be pretty good defensively (top 5 in each of the past few seasons), but also score a lot, too.

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03-18-2013, 11:31 AM
  #710
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I don't agree. I think the Avs NEED to have a winner behind the bench to have credibility with their own players as well as someone who's a proven winner as a head coach (memorial cup).

You act as though the incident that happened like 5 years ago is something that happens every day with Roy behind the bench. Ridiculous. The guy has an incredible record as a GM & head coach of the Remparts ever since he started 7-8 years ago. Marc Crawford, Bob Hartley, Joel Quenneville all of these guys had that fiery competitive spirit that would come out whenever we were getting screwed over by the refs or something and at least they showed some passion, unlike the guy we presently have.
Wait... he actually did jump off the bench and fight someone?

I was just using that as an example of how he's so overly the top competitive that I think his coaching methods would wear thin on the team faster than Duchene can go coast to coast or faster than Palushaj can fall down to the ice untouched.

Yes, a head coach should be a proven winner. But I don't think bringing in a guy with the kind of temper he has is going to work in the long run. Ask yourself, how many of the most successful coaches in hockey history were known as loose cannons? Then ask yourself how many coaches were successful that were smart in how they built their team's styles and reserved their tempers for moments where it really needed to be effective.

Do you want Crawford... or Babcock?

I honestly believe we need a player's coach. Someone that can get their best out of their players by demonstrating to them they can devise a smart system and not lose their cool under pressure.

I'm Jon Cooper and I endorse this message.

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03-18-2013, 11:34 AM
  #711
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Wait... he actually did jump off the bench and fight someone?

I was just using that as an example of how he's so overly the top competitive that I think his coaching methods would wear thin on the team faster than Duchene can go coast to coast or faster than Palushaj can fall down to the ice untouched.

Bender is probably referring to the incident with Roy's son.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3311529

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03-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #712
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Wait... he actually did jump off the bench and fight someone?

I was just using that as an example of how he's so overly the top competitive that I think his coaching methods would wear thin on the team faster than Duchene can go coast to coast or faster than Palushaj can fall down to the ice untouched.

Yes, a head coach should be a proven winner. But I don't think bringing in a guy with the kind of temper he has is going to work in the long run. Ask yourself, how many of the most successful coaches in hockey history were known as loose cannons? Then ask yourself how many coaches were successful that were smart in how they built their team's styles and reserved their tempers for moments where it really needed to be effective.

Do you want Crawford... or Bowman?

I honestly believe we need a player's coach. Someone that can get their best out of their players by demonstrating to them they can devise a smart system and not lose their cool under pressure.

I'm Jon Cooper and I endorse this message.
I think those are counter acting. A players coach plays the hell out of his top players, and relies on his top players to make plays and win them games. Like a Tortorella, Bylsma, Laviolette. A smart system guy relies on everyone on the team sticking to the same system. Players usually get robotic, and it takes away skilled players creativity. Tippett or Hitchcock are good examples of this type. This is also what Sacco is, and he is not good at it. Usually a team will alternate. Messages get old and players need to refresh.

I think Roy is a players coach. Much like Tortorella. I have no idea what kind of system he implements.

The Avs need to bring in a players coach. I don't know who John Cooper is, I don't really pay any attention to the AHL.

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03-18-2013, 11:44 AM
  #713
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I don't believe it's 'actually' his decision to make and by NOT being able to make it, he's being setup as the 'fall-guy' regardless. A bottom five finish might very well seal his fate. If what I'm suggesting is indeed accurate, you can expect a "General Manager Greg Sherman has stepped down as GM of the team and will stay with the organization in another capacity" as opposed to an outright firing.

As you said, he doesn't deserve to be fired based on all we've seen but if his goal is to WIN hockey games, Joe Sacco as coach isn't cutting it and he's got to know that. That's why it's not his call and the Avs are keeping Sacco to secure another asset in a top draft pick.
You may very well be right. If it isn't his decision, all the more reason to get somebody that won't take his orders, or at least stand up to PL. The faster this organization can get away from PL, the better.

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03-18-2013, 11:44 AM
  #714
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I don't believe Wayne Gretzky was ever the GM in Phoenix. Mike Barnett was GM when Wayner was coaching the yotes.
Gretzky had an ownership stake and was head of hockey operations.
I guess he had the PL role over there. And the GM (Barnett) was his longtime agent and probably very good friend of him whom he convinced to take the job.
So yeah I think it would be kind of the same to a degree. He had way too much control.

And how the hell is Sacco a system coach?

EDIT: And I am heavily against creating or jumping into another probably even bigger mess only to get out of the current one.
The next organisational makeover has to go right. Otherwise we will have a pretty sad 10 years in front of us...

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03-18-2013, 11:45 AM
  #715
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I think those are counter acting. A players coach plays the hell out of his top players, and relies on his top players to make plays and win them games. Like a Tortorella, Bylsma, Laviolette. A smart system guy relies on everyone on the team sticking to the same system. Players usually get robotic, and it takes away skilled players creativity. Tippett or Hitchcock are good examples of this type. This is also what Sacco is, and he is not good at it. Usually a team will alternate. Messages get old and players need to refresh.

I think Roy is a players coach. Much like Tortorella. I have no idea what kind of system he implements.

The Avs need to bring in a players coach. I don't know who John Cooper is, I don't really pay any attention to the AHL.
Perhaps my definition is different from yours.

But by Player's Coach I'm referring to someone the team likes because they don't pull any of the doghouse ******** for making a bad pass once in a blue moon or benches their prospects because the veterans earned the icetime. But when the time calls for it, they use the 'punishments' effectively.

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03-18-2013, 12:47 PM
  #716
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Bender you've been a Roy supporter for as long as I can remember, how would you describe him as a coach? I know he's fiery and competitive, but is he a good tactician? What kind of system does he run? His teams seem to be pretty good defensively (top 5 in each of the past few seasons), but also score a lot, too.
Sure I've been a Roy supporter for a super long time but that doesn't mean I have any real insight into his strengths as a coach or whatever. I just see his record in junior and take it at face value. He won a memorial cup, his first year coaching iirc and he's had a winning record every single year. That's OUTSTANDING and incredibly difficult to do because you generally don't keep the same players for more than 2-3 years and have to deal with a constant roster turnover.

Being realistic with how this team operates, if we have the choice between any of the coaches we have in our system AND ONLY 'friends to the franchise' type candidates, I believe that Roy is by far the best candidate.

The hope that I have that it will be Roy also stems from the Granato and Sacco hirings, where we got a guy with a brutal or non-existent track record to coach this team. That's just not going to work.

Roy has always excelled at whatever he's done and while I was actually skeptical when he decided to coach a junior team, the results speak for themselves.

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I'm Jon Cooper and I endorse this message.
I would be pretty happy if we went out and got a coach that has no real ties with this organization. It would have been nice if we had done it with Dineen, Deboer or Guy Boucher before we decided to hire Sacco. All good young, up and coming coaches, like Cooper is but I'm just being realistic about the way this franchise operates.

It's like Lacroix did it with Crawford and it really didn't end well and ever since that time, he decided it's either going to be someone he knows or someone that he's brought in through the minors.

Not saying it's the right way to go, just saying that's the way it seems to be.

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03-18-2013, 01:03 PM
  #717
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Patrick Roy is a players coach and he's also a pretty good tactician who knows who to get the best out of his players. He's also an offensively oriented coach, I remember he got into an argument about how Boucher and coaches like him are ruining the QMJHL (and making it unwatchable) and its player development by forcing their players to play trap which hampers their offensive development.

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03-18-2013, 02:46 PM
  #718
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Patrick Roy is a players coach and he's also a pretty good tactician who knows who to get the best out of his players. He's also an offensively oriented coach, I remember he got into an argument about how Boucher and coaches like him are ruining the QMJHL (and making it unwatchable) and its player development by forcing their players to play trap which hampers their offensive development.
I heard this argument broken down and talked about in the past as well. While Roy is known for his fire and emotion, hes also known as a players coach. His players love him.

You do have to remember that Roy while he does have fire, understands what it's like to have a coach that is a serious hard ass (Heartly).

People grow and mature/calm down a bit as they get older when it comes to the way they handle things. If Roy can handle guys like Grigorenko, with big egos and offensive flare, and allow them to flourish. I think he can handle an even more mature, but still young NHL roster.

Roy commands respect, is super competitive, has shown hes smart tactically, and is known as a players coach. While also having an offensive coaching style. Our team is going to be somewhere between LA & CHI when it comes to style. We need a coach that can make that happen.

With the 'In the organization' attitude, Roy is our best hope. I'd love Cooper but it really seems like a pipe dream.

I think we as fans would enjoy Roy's candid attitude when dealing with the media as well. That has been one of our biggest complaints between Granato & Sacco, the way they vomit the party line at us after a game, good or bad.

Roy could really be a good face to bring back media attention, Roy just brings the right kind of personality and attitude to Colorado that we have been missing.

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03-18-2013, 02:53 PM
  #719
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So can we agree that as just a coach he would be one of the better 'in the family' coaches?

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03-18-2013, 02:59 PM
  #720
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I heard this argument broken down and talked about in the past as well. While Roy is known for his fire and emotion, hes also known as a players coach. His players love him.

You do have to remember that Roy while he does have fire, understands what it's like to have a coach that is a serious hard ass (Heartly).

People grow and mature/calm down a bit as they get older when it comes to the way they handle things. If Roy can handle guys like Grigorenko, with big egos and offensive flare, and allow them to flourish. I think he can handle an even more mature, but still young NHL roster.

Roy commands respect, is super competitive, has shown hes smart tactically, and is known as a players coach. While also having an offensive coaching style. Our team is going to be somewhere between LA & CHI when it comes to style. We need a coach that can make that happen.

With the 'In the organization' attitude, Roy is our best hope. I'd love Cooper but it really seems like a pipe dream.

I think we as fans would enjoy Roy's candid attitude when dealing with the media as well. That has been one of our biggest complaints between Granato & Sacco, the way they vomit the party line at us after a game, good or bad.

Roy could really be a good face to bring back media attention, Roy just brings the right kind of personality and attitude to Colorado that we have been missing.
I agree 100%. I think getting Roy as a coach would be awesome. He would put some heat to Drunk and Casper the ghost.

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03-18-2013, 03:12 PM
  #721
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I heard this argument broken down and talked about in the past as well. While Roy is known for his fire and emotion, hes also known as a players coach. His players love him.

You do have to remember that Roy while he does have fire, understands what it's like to have a coach that is a serious hard ass (Heartly).

People grow and mature/calm down a bit as they get older when it comes to the way they handle things. If Roy can handle guys like Grigorenko, with big egos and offensive flare, and allow them to flourish. I think he can handle an even more mature, but still young NHL roster.

Roy commands respect, is super competitive, has shown hes smart tactically, and is known as a players coach. While also having an offensive coaching style. Our team is going to be somewhere between LA & CHI when it comes to style. We need a coach that can make that happen.

With the 'In the organization' attitude, Roy is our best hope. I'd love Cooper but it really seems like a pipe dream.

I think we as fans would enjoy Roy's candid attitude when dealing with the media as well. That has been one of our biggest complaints between Granato & Sacco, the way they vomit the party line at us after a game, good or bad.

Roy could really be a good face to bring back media attention, Roy just brings the right kind of personality and attitude to Colorado that we have been missing.
Just look back at what Radulov had to say about him, he absolutely loves Roy and if I'm not mistaken he lived at his house.

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03-18-2013, 03:16 PM
  #722
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Just look back at what Radulov had to say about him, he absolutely loves Roy and if I'm not mistaken he lived at his house.
So we can get Rads when Russia kicks him out

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03-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #723
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So we can get Rads when Russia kicks him out
Sweet. Start the russian invasion!

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03-18-2013, 03:23 PM
  #724
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So can we agree that as just a coach he would be one of the better 'in the family' coaches?
I agree. And I agree with the Sherman/Roy GM team approach if that is what it takes.

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03-18-2013, 03:24 PM
  #725
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So can we agree that as just a coach he would be one of the better 'in the family' coaches?
This is more or less the long and the short of it. We know Roy has had success as a coach at the junior level and he has an insatiable fire for winning, neither of which is a prerequisite for being a coach for the Colorado Avalanche.

The Kroenke's aren't selling, they aren't getting rid of Lacroix, and Lacroix isn't changing how he runs the team. Handing the keys to Roy seems like the one thing that might give this franchise a boost.

The only other possibilities are keeping Sacco, hiring Quinn, Army, Chenowyth... and let's not forget the possibility of rehiring Granato. (no I can't discount it)

Of all the realistic possibilities given how we know the organization is run, I can't think of anything that would give this team more hope than handing the keys to Roy.

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