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Poll: Does Ken Holland get too much credit?

View Poll Results: Do you feel Ken Holland and his legacy are overrated?
Yes. 17 32.69%
Partially so: He is a competent GM, but most of his success was luck of the situation 16 30.77%
No 19 36.54%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-20-2013, 01:34 AM
  #1
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Poll: Does Ken Holland get too much credit?

I personally think yes, but I would like to know this forum's stance on the matter. I hope it doesn't come off as too knee jerky, because I honestly have felt this way for awhile. Below is my reasoning I posted in a thread tonight.

Ken Holland inherited a cup winning roster in 98, used the same nucleus and basically unlimited and unrivaled spending power to secure hall of famers who were coming here regardless in 2002, and had a few Hakan Anderson gems pan out for him in 2008, of which he himself takes NO credit for. Rafalski was a good move, but he was a Detroit boy and was probably coming here regardless. His last GREAT signing was Hossa, and even then Hossa's agent called Holland, not the other way around. Holland wasn't even considering signing Hossa, Hossa is the one who initiated it. This man gets too much undeserved credit and his overripe philosophy is running this team into the ground. His extensions on dime a dozen players like Eaves are above free agent market value and generally are for far too long relative to where this team will be. Is anybody really excited we have Bertuzzi for another year after this?

The worst thing is, he isn't even trying to get creative. Sure he went and tried to sign Suter (lowballed him), but he didn't have much of a backup plan. In today's NHL you can't wait till free agency, it isnt a sure thing. He probably thought keeping the cap space open would be good for Edler next offseason, but guess who just extended with the Canucks? Heck, he didn't even take a flyer at Wade Redden, a former all-star for a 1 year 800k deal that St. Louis just got him for. Say what you want about Redden, but the only reason he was in the AHL was his 6 million dollar salary. He is overrated but still much better than Carlo Colavico. Even if plays just barely better than Kindl, why not at least try? Or maybe instead of letting him rot in the minors, Holland actually allowed Smith to ease into the NHL and be tutored by Lidstrom last year, opposed to bringing him up to a top 4 role after a whopping 15 games of NHL experience.

Since our last true cup contending roster in 09, we've lost Hossa, Hudler, Holmstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Lidstrom and have essentially replaced them with Bertuzzi, bringing back Sammuelson, Quincy, Tootoo and Smith. I don't mind any players on the 2nd group, but you dont have to be a genius to realize that is a MASSIVE exodus of talent. Keep in mind that while we've gotten younger, our GOOD and key players have gotten older and regressed with the exception of Filppula. I don't expect guys like Nyquist to be Zetterberg good, hell I'd be happy if he scored at the same rate as Hudler, but we'll never find out if Holland keeps signing veterans who are marginally better than the young guys RIGHT now and have NO room to improve, only regress.

This team lacks clear direction, and I honestly think Holland isnt sure whether or not he still wants to make us a contender or go for a rebuild, and hasnt been sure the past 3 seasons. I'd be ok with us even failing a bit for a few seasons if I knew it would be worth it in the end, ala 2005-06 Pittsburgh, but Holland keeps having an instance on signing older players who don't catapult us to the next level and hold us back for the future. We have capspace and a billionaire owner. Would it really be so much of a travesty to take a risk here and then?

I feel like next year will be our last chance to win a cup with Datsyuk and Zetterberg leading the charge. Unfortunately I don't see that happening due to us being binded by contracts like Sammy's and Bert's, as it allows for no real meaningful changeover.

He's made some good signings, and he's made some good trades, but I honestly think Ken Holland is mismanaging this situation horribly and it will only get worse next year. I do not think Ken Holland is a bad general manager, but I do have a hard time calling him one of the greats. He was put in a situation to win, and made the right moves, but lots of them at the time were obvious or in retrospect lucky. I feel he is an average GM at best, and criticism of his job the past few years is warranted.

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01-20-2013, 01:54 AM
  #2
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Not many organizations have such generous and willing owners. The Illitch family has to share a big chunk of his success, as well as Hakan, like you said. He probably isn't as bad as we would all like to declare tonight, but he has definitely not done enough in the last few years to prevent this situation. The problem is the crappy re-signing events that keep taking place. Bertuzzi, Miller and/or Eaves, bringing Quincey and Samuelsson back. What does this do for us? Why not let the kids play? We aren't going to win a cup with this lot. We should be letting Smith log a ton of minutes, and become a leader with Kronwall on the back end. We should be letting Nyquist play with two of the better forwards in the NHL while they are still here, etc. No point of having Sammy play 2nd line minutes.

Babcock has even done his passive aggressive best to get his point across, but to no avail. It sucks because if Kenny isn't listening to him, then who will he listen to? This process will most likely be long and drawn out, leaving us with a less than mediocre team, but not bad enough to draft top 5, for a long time. Very frustrating.

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01-20-2013, 02:25 AM
  #3
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This thread is another example of spoiled Wings fans.

Short-sighted and quick to give up.

I remember a time when this forum was more well-grounded.

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01-20-2013, 02:28 AM
  #4
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I think the Wings owner deserves a lot of credit, He is willing to spend what ever it takes to win.

Isn't the Wings owner on record saying, he worries about what winning costs later ?

I think Holland is a good GM, but you have to admit he did have a very good roster coming into the job.

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01-20-2013, 02:30 AM
  #5
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Ken Holland does get too much credit from a lot of fans.

Fans like Jaster, who is quick to insult other fans, will pretend that Holland has done a nice job with this team recently.

The facts, however, show that his performance has slipped.

Truthfully, I think Holland is one of the best in the business. He likely was the best in the business.

But the shine has rubbed off.

I still give him credit as a great drafter.
But he loses credit as a developer. He's a poor trader.

And, after a MASTERFUL job reducing the Red Wings from a $70M team to a $39M team, Holland has become a GM who seems to lack the decisiveness needed to operate in the salary cap era.

Since the Hossa vs Franzen offseason, he's not been very good at all.

All that said, don't think the options in the poll are much to choose from.

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01-20-2013, 02:45 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Ken Holland does get too much credit from a lot of fans.
And he gets too little credit from twice as many fans.


Quote:
Fans like Jaster, who is quick to insult other fans, will pretend that Holland has done a nice job with this team recently.
Says the guy who has insulted at a rate magnitudes higher than just about anyone else, save one poster who isn't here any longer. Save the cheap shots, newsy, they don't add anything. Beyond that, no, I don't think Holland has done a great job. He has made a couple mistakes recently. Quincey sucks and shouldn't have been brought back. We've always agreed there. But he gets thrown under the bus far more around here than he should. You read this forum for 15 minutes and you'd think Holland is one of the worst GMs in the league. On the contrary, he's still one of the better GMs around.


Quote:
Truthfully, I think Holland is one of the best in the business.
Discussion over then.


Quote:
I still give him credit as a great drafter.
But he loses credit as a developer. He's a poor trader.

And, after a MASTERFUL job reducing the Red Wings from a $70M team to a $39M team, Holland has become a GM who seems to lack the decisiveness needed to operate in the salary cap era.

Since the Hossa vs Franzen offseason, he's not been very good at all.
Oops, maybe not over. Your position seems to be rather contradictory. Inconsistent. Inflammatory even. Seems like you have a pretty low standard in regards to what defines, "one of the best in the business," at the very least.

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01-20-2013, 02:52 AM
  #7
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Jaster and CB? Take it outside. You're both known for carrying incendiary devices. I don't want to mod at friggin' 1 AM PT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post

Oops, maybe not over. Your position seems to be rather contradictory. Inconsistent. Inflammatory even. Seems like you have a pretty low standard in regards to what defines, "one of the best in the business," at the very least.

Lidstrom was better at 32 than 42. Maybe Kenny has lost his edge a bit.

Heck, the NHL keeps rediscovering itself. The officiating standards change every time Gary passes gas, it seems. We had the lockout that would save the league, but oh wait.... a bankruptcy, a relocation, HEY, we need ANOTHER lockout.

I'm amazed anyone can build a team under the crap management the NHL has forced on GMs who actually have hockey sense.

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01-20-2013, 02:53 AM
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Jaster and CB? Take it outside. You're both known for carrying incendiary devices. I don't want to mod at friggin' 1 AM PT.
Bah! This isn't half as bad as what used to not get moderated at all But to your point.... I'm going to bed, no need to go outside. Wings will rebound. I'm not hitting the panic button quite yet.

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01-20-2013, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Bah! This isn't half as bad as what used to not get moderated at all But to your point.... I'm going to bed, no need to go outside. Wings will rebound. I'm not hitting the panic button quite yet.

Yeah, I know. Mods were hauled into training camp last week.


I need to turn in too.

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01-20-2013, 07:01 AM
  #10
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No, on this board I don't think he does.

Kenny makes mistakes like every GM in the league and he has unfortunately not been terribly stellar these past few years. It is very possible his chickens will come to roost (is that even the right saying) this year and the Wings missing the playoffs will be a massive wake-up call for him.

Hope I'm wrong, though.

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01-20-2013, 07:15 AM
  #11
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Is this so we can determine the pro-Holland/anti-Holland sides moving forward? I think we already know this, so redundancy?

I think a better question is: Is Holland a top 10 GM? A top 5 GM?

It's an organizational success, not any one man or player.

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01-20-2013, 11:13 AM
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He's one of the top GMs in the entire league, but that doesn't mean he can do no wrong. Some questionable decisions lately, but we need to see how they play out. It's pretty easy for all the Captain Hindsights around here to rip his every past action apart.

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01-20-2013, 11:20 AM
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Jim Nill should get more credit than he does

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01-20-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
Jim Nill should get more credit than he does
Nill's fingerprints are on this roster and pipeline too, right?

IMO if Holland had gotten promoted and Nill became the acting GM, he'd be getting just as much flak as Holland.

Wings' assistant GM, Wings' backup goalie, and backup Lions QB - the three most popular men in Michigan at any given moment.

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01-20-2013, 11:23 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
Jim Nill should get more credit than he does
Me and you are on the same page. I would love for Holland to be moved to a different position and have Jim Nill take the reigns.

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01-20-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kuick View Post
It's pretty easy for all the Captain Hindsights around here to rip his every past action apart.
It's not even hindsight in a lot of cases.

Some people thought Smith should be up full-time last year. Then the playoffs come and we get direct quotes from Babcock that he thought so too.

People mockingly suggest Holland will bring back Sammy; he does just that.

The only creative solution he has come up with in the past few years is Brunner -- and the jury is still out.

Something needs to shake Holland out of his rut. Maybe this is the year.

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01-20-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
Jim Nill should get more credit than he does
He certainly deserves credit for the Wings' draft success, and I'd be happy to see him take over.

There definitely appears to be a disconnect in the front office. Since 2010 we've heard time and time again (and it's been painfully obvious) how the team needs to get bigger and tougher to play against. Their drafts have followed that line of thinking, yet all the roster moves for the Red Wings don't seem to follow that philosophy at all.

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01-20-2013, 11:59 AM
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Unfortunately for the Wings and us fans, it's already over for the core of this team, which essentially means the combination of Datsyuk and Zetterburg. Datsyuk is 35, and this team needs a major rebuild, which will never be completed while Datsyuk is still in prime form. Zetterburg is only 32, so it's not too late for the Wings to re-tool the team with Zetterburg at its core.

What this means is that for the best interests of BOTH the Wings and Datsyuk, the Wings should trade Datsyuk now for picks or some good young talent.

Holland will never make such a trade, which is one reason why I generally agree with your assessment of Holland.

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01-20-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuick View Post
He's one of the top GMs in the entire league, but that doesn't mean he can do no wrong. Some questionable decisions lately, but we need to see how they play out. It's pretty easy for all the Captain Hindsights around here to rip his every past action apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icKx View Post
It's not even hindsight in a lot of cases.

Some people thought Smith should be up full-time last year. Then the playoffs come and we get direct quotes from Babcock that he thought so too.

People mockingly suggest Holland will bring back Sammy; he does just that.

The only creative solution he has come up with in the past few years is Brunner -- and the jury is still out.

Something needs to shake Holland out of his rut. Maybe this is the year.
This. We've been ripping him every step of the way, no hindsight involved here

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01-20-2013, 12:34 PM
  #20
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And he gets too little credit from twice as many fans.
Right.




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Says the guy who has insulted at a rate magnitudes higher than just about anyone else, save one poster who isn't here any longer. Save the cheap shots, newsy, they don't add anything.
You're the one who just called everyone whiney and embarrassing. Maybe you shouldn't lecture people on cheap shots.



Quote:
Beyond that, no, I don't think Holland has done a great job. He has made a couple mistakes recently. Quincey sucks and shouldn't have been brought back. We've always agreed there. But he gets thrown under the bus far more around here than he should. You read this forum for 15 minutes and you'd think Holland is one of the worst GMs in the league. On the contrary, he's still one of the better GMs around.
Baloney.
He's getting "thrown under the bus" (ie -- criticized fairly) NOW because guys like Heaton have realized they can no longer justify his actions over the last couple years.

Years ago, I was as big a fan of Holland as anyone. But he lost me with Krupp/Fedorov/Cujo... then I got on board with him again after the salary cap.. He bought out the right guys.

And I didn't like him bringing in Rafalski (I wanted Stuart, who we traded for...) or Osgood or Drake--- but they worked out.
On the plus side -- Holland got rid of the three players I hated most right before we won the cup - Lang, Schneider and Williams,

But I'm tired of losing good young players to keep old, unimpressive veterans.

I'm tired of Holland's "Bring back the Gang" approach. I



Quote:
Oops, maybe not over. Your position seems to be rather contradictory. Inconsistent. Inflammatory even. Seems like you have a pretty low standard in regards to what defines, "one of the best in the business," at the very least.
Right now --- Over the last 4 years, Holland has not been good.
But GMs are judged on the body of their work. Holland has built up lots of good will in the organization, and with good reason.

But if Kenny Holland Junior retired after the 09 season and this was John Q Smith as our GM over the last 4 years, people would be saying "Wow, this guy is no Ken Holland.'

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01-20-2013, 05:57 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
This thread is another example of spoiled Wings fans.

Short-sighted and quick to give up.

I remember a time when this forum was more well-grounded.
Yeah. Before Ken Holland had to actually make his own decisions rather than relying on inheriting a cup winning team with one of the best cores in the history of hockey. The past few years really define Holland the most, as for once he didn't have a stacked team or Hakan Anderson special to fall back on.

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01-20-2013, 06:06 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
Yeah. Before Ken Holland had to actually make his own decisions rather than relying on inheriting a cup winning team with one of the best cores in the history of hockey. The past few years really define Holland the most, as for once he didn't have a stacked team or Hakan Anderson special to fall back on.
Ken Holland was the director of amateur scouting for the Detroit Red Wings from 1990 to 1997 before he was promoted to be a GM. Before 1990 he was a scout. Our best draft ever was 1989 when Holland was scouting.

So he should also get some credit being scouting those guys we had at 90's. It's not just his GM work after 1997 that has affected to the team he took in his hands after the 1st Cup. He also did the groundwork to get those guys drafted he later managed.

We owe him and Jimmy Devellano all these years of success, no matter how ****** few years we will see in the near future. The better years will come again, because our prospect core is so great. Thanks to Ken Holland, that he has signed the right guys like Jim Nill to our management who did those latest great drafts.

Best GM's put the right personnel to right jobs. It's not just the roster building. It's also the staff around it.


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01-20-2013, 06:20 PM
  #23
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We've been "retooling" for 3 years now.

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01-20-2013, 06:26 PM
  #24
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Holland has been recognized as one of the best GM from hockey insiders--people who really know what it takes to run a club (unlike us). I think he deserves all the praise he's received purely based on that.

Having said that, everyone is human and everyone makes mistakes. I think Holland's biggest mistake recently is his approach to the cap. He has just become too conservative, too tentative. He misread how the league would come out of the lock-out, thinking teams wouldn't be nearly as flexible as they are ($64.3M cap, 2 buyouts, tradeable salary, etc). It's clear now that he was wrong on all fronts.

Regardless, Holland still has the skills and money to rebuild this roster. He just needs to stop fearing the cap so much and have some guts to make some moves.


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01-20-2013, 06:45 PM
  #25
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I don't believe that GM's have a legacy per-se... the GM position (and head coach, to a certain extent) is judged on the basis of "what have you done for me lately". Is Chuck Fletcher a better GM than Kenny? Most would say no, but the truth is, he got the result, Kenny didn't.

We can debate whether it was smarter to keep Franzen and lose Hossa a few years back, but that solves nothing. If you are a GM, you make a decision and it either works out splendidly or it doesn't. If Sammy, Tootoo and Colaiacovo tear it up this year, Kenny's a genius. A GM is only as good or bad as his last decision that worked out or didn't.

GM has to be one of the most pressure jobs out there. You can plan your heart out and things change suddenly due to market conditions, or hang on a decision by a particular player. You can pull off the most well-thought-out trade, and the guy gets injured in his first game and is never the same. But, whatever happens, it's perceived as your fault and you are judged as being good or bad at your job because of it.

I believe that Kenny's been good at managing the cap (he recognised the "Zetterberg dividend" a few years ago and brought in Hossa, and he's been good at reserving some of the cap now), and fair to good at personnel management (I think he leans too much on the veterans and tends rely too much on bringing back the band, but on the other hand, he shows loyalty becuase it has been shown to him). He's not a "blow it up and start over" GM, but he's an expert on reload, not rebuild, and I, for one, am very grateful for that.

There are flashier guys out there (Brian Burke) that wear out their welcome quickly, but most of the GM's out there are more in the Kenny mold, and of them, Kenny's pretty near the top of the pack.

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