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Mark Scheifele sent back to Barrie Colts (OHL)

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Old
01-28-2013, 07:38 PM
  #426
TroubaFan1
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
I don't see it myself. You have a specific example?
Id have to go look for a specific example. I just remember being in an argument about Pavs.

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01-28-2013, 07:53 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Gah too much anntimmitosittty <--- thats what I do when I forget how to spell something..just add more letters :p

Move along now people.......nothing to see here.

Let's wait and see what the org decides to do with Mark. Love to see him play a couple more games but if the Jets decide to send him to Barrie to finish up his season there then so be it.

I think I will revisit this thread at a later point in time lol
you spell like me

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01-28-2013, 07:56 PM
  #428
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you spell like me

he must be using my cell phone.

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01-28-2013, 08:11 PM
  #429
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To clarify my stance, I like Scheifele I hope he molds into the player we need, HOWEVER he is not ready at this time and needs to be a star in juniors for one more season.

The parent club won't do much for him but burn a season of his ELC.

Riding the pine OR top player? I know which one I would choose personally.

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01-28-2013, 08:21 PM
  #430
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But playing 10 minutes a night for 41 games is not "riding the pine"

He stands a good chance of getting more minutes in the nhl than playing 18 games in Barrie.

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01-28-2013, 08:42 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
I can't see this.

If Chipman was running the draft sure, but he has nothing to do with it. Even Chevy himself doesn't decide the picks.

Chevy had no prior affiliation with Jets 1.0 and therefore no affiliation with Dale. Plus it was our scouting staff (inherited from Atlanta) that were raving about him and they possibly have an affiliation (they've taken Barrie players before) but not with the implied "Dale's a former Winnipeg Jet affiliation".



It's become a new weird thing on here where people just keep backing themselves with "it's my opinion" as if it's a defense or replacement for factual information.



I saw some of the stats guys showing why Pavelec wasn't that great or why he didn't deserve the contract he got, but I've never seen anyone cheering on any failure for him. I think they want him to develop and succeed like the rest of us.
I was very careful to preface and end my Pav stat pieces with "I want him to he great." despite being nervous.

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01-28-2013, 09:39 PM
  #432
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Its has to be said, both Couturier(Philly) and Hamilton(Boston) are contributing more on better teams. Its hurts to think how we could have Hamilton in the lineup instead of Clitsome.


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01-28-2013, 09:53 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
Its has to be said, both Couturier(Philly) and Hamilton(Boston) are contributing more on better teams. Its hurts to think how we could have Hamilton in lineup instead of Clitsome.
Why does it have to be said?

That ship has sailed.

Do you think Islanders fans and Sens fans are dwelling on that fact?

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01-28-2013, 09:59 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
But playing 10 minutes a night for 41 games is not "riding the pine"

He stands a good chance of getting more minutes in the nhl than playing 18 games in Barrie.
And whom do you replace with him?

Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler = Don't Touch they are playing good.
Ladd - Antropov - Little = Don't Touch they are playing good.
Ponikarovski - Burmistrov - Wellwood = Maybe Wellwood, but he has played a bit better.
Thorburn - Slater - Wright = Maybe Wright, though I think he's playing much better than Scheifele has in the past.

Unfortunately within the big club there really isn't a "spot" for Scheifele currently, he needs to earn it and hasn't quite yet.

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01-28-2013, 10:30 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Unfortunately within the big club there really isn't a "spot" for Scheifele currently, he needs to earn it and hasn't quite yet.
Yet, he is still with the team, so the Jets management must feel differently as of right now as they've yet to draw the same definitive conclusion as have you, apparently. Heh. Oops.

That may or may not change. Why not just let it play out first prior to issuing final judgements?


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01-28-2013, 10:58 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
Its has to be said, both Couturier(Philly) and Hamilton(Boston) are contributing more on better teams. Its hurts to think how we could have Hamilton in the lineup instead of Clitsome.
you realize this literally happens every year to several teams? It's the nature of the draft. Someone, down the line will be better then those two as well and we'll all be left scratching our heads on how we missed that.

People can piss and moan about it, or they can get over it, nothing to be done for it now.
Quote:
To clarify my stance, I like Scheifele I hope he molds into the player we need, HOWEVER he is not ready at this time and needs to be a star in juniors for one more season.

The parent club won't do much for him but burn a season of his ELC.

Riding the pine OR top player? I know which one I would choose personally.
the issue here is its not an accurate representation of reality.

He sat for two games, is practicing with the big boys and has played almost 10 minutes a night (would likely see 10+ at home, less on the raod) in a worst case scenario when he draws into the line up. So even with say a sprinkling of sits, lets say 10 thats 36 games. more if they make the playoffs.

Where's if he was returned to barries he's only garaunteed 18. even a long playoff berth results in what...32? thats hardly the picture thats been painted here

further edit: i would support the decision to send him down, but i just want to point out it's not exactly the developmental "slam dunk" it gets presented as. there's plenty of reasoning to keep him up even if he only dresses for 30 games.


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01-28-2013, 11:30 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
And whom do you replace with him?

Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler = Don't Touch they are playing good.
Ladd - Antropov - Little = Don't Touch they are playing good.
Ponikarovski - Burmistrov - Wellwood = Maybe Wellwood, but he has played a bit better.
Thorburn - Slater - Wright = Maybe Wright, though I think he's playing much better than Scheifele has in the past.

Unfortunately within the big club there really isn't a "spot" for Scheifele currently, he needs to earn it and hasn't quite yet.
I said during the off-season that Wellwood's re-signing probably meant Scheifele was going back to Barrie. He's the victim of a numbers game. There are simply too many forwards on the team who are better than he is. That's a nice problem to have, compared to previous season when the cupboards were bare. If he had been this good last season, he'd have probably made the team. But given Wellwood's career year last season, and the additions of Jokinen/Ponikarovski/Wright, the bar is higher when it comes to making the team. And I do not think we should be burning a season or two off his ELC playing on a 4th line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Yet, he is still with the team, so the Jets management must feel differently as of right now as they've yet to draw the same definitive conclusion as have you, apparently. Heh. Oops.

That may or may not change. Why not just let it play out first prior to issuing final judgements?
League rules allow Scheifele to be suited up for 5 games this shortened season, without burning a year of his ELC. Management is probably keeping him around for a few reasons...
  1. the off-chance that he might impress enough to earn a spot on the team (not likely)
  2. just in case one of our top 9 forwards suffers a major injury early on, and we really need Scheifele, notwithstanding his rawness. That would involve rushing him a bit, but at least he'd be playing on a 2nd or 3rd line, rather than a 4th line.
  3. give him a taste of the NHL

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01-29-2013, 12:04 AM
  #438
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Imagine if Jets existed during the 06 draft. Chevy, an up and coming GM gets chance to pick the 8th overall pick for the Winnipeg Jets. Instead of picking the "safe, consensus" pick in James Sheppard he decides to go "off the board" and drafts kid by the name of Claude Giroux. Soon Sheppard is up playing in the NHL, certain Jets fans are furious, "look at Sheppard" they say, "He's already in the NHL where's Giroux the scrub is still stuck in the QMJHL". The next year Giroux gets sent back to the juniors again after getting a brief look while Sheppard plays another season in the NHL. Rage rises among a segment of Jets fans "Shoulda drafted Sheppard instead of Giroux the bust, told ya so", look where we are today.

I'm not saying that Scheifele is going to turn into a Claude Giroux, the point here is people will feel like idiots if Scheifele comes thorough on his potential. 19 yr olds don't typically play in the NHL, look at Strome and Zibenajad who were drafted ahead of Scheifele and are in the same boat as Scheifele when it comes to playing in the NHL. Do you see Isles and Sens fans declaring them busts?

Edit: Just read the last couple of pages of this thread and I must say that I'm very disappointed in certain people who seem to wanna do nothing but beat down on a 19 yr old prospect. It's a shame really


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01-29-2013, 12:18 AM
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
But playing 10 minutes a night for 41 games is not "riding the pine"

He stands a good chance of getting more minutes in the nhl than playing 18 games in Barrie.
Sorry, I don't think this math adds up:

Jets: 41 games * 10 min a night = 410 minutes

Colts: 20 games * 22 min a night (his average) = 440 minutes

Factor in that the Colts will project to play somewhere between 10 and 20 more playoff games than the Jets, and it's not even really close. On the off chance that the Jets are pushing for the Stanley Cup final, they could potentially bring him up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
Where's if he was returned to barries he's only garaunteed 18. even a long playoff berth results in what...32? thats hardly the picture thats been painted here
20 regular season games are guaranteed actually, and as the top team in the conference by a ways, the conference final seems like a forgone conclusion (at least 12 games). More than likely it will be more than 20 games for the Colts this playoff season, and maybe more at the Memorial Cup (that is pushing it, but a possibility).


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01-29-2013, 12:25 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Sorry, I don't think this math adds up:

Jets: 41 games * 10 min a night = 410 minutes

Colts: 20 games * 22 min a night (his average) = 440 minutes

Factor in that the Colts will project to play somewhere between 10 and 20 more playoff games than the Jets, and it's not even really close. On the off chance that the Jets are pushing for the Stanley Cup final, they could potentially bring him up.



20 regular season games are guaranteed actually, and as the top team in the conference by a ways, the conference final seems like a forgone conclusion (at least 12 games). More than likely it will be more than 20 games for the Colts this playoff season, and maybe more at the Memorial Cup (that is pushing it, but a possibility).
It would be 18 Colts games. He will play minimum 5 nhl games. He won't play in barrie's games on the 30th or the first. And really no way to know with playoffs.

It'll be close either way. I think he'd be better off playing and practising with pros in an intense schedule. But I'm not in charge here.

I also don't know if Noel is willing to shelter him

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01-29-2013, 12:35 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Scheifele is 19; his career is just beginning. The only way that one can claim right now that Couturier will definitively prove the better pick/player is if one assumes that careers are judged by their performances at 18/19 years of age. Here is a news flash; they aren't. Scheifele will be judged as a player based upon his body of work in the NHL. How about we let that play out for a few years prior to judging him? Just because Couturier may have been the more NHL ready player at 18 in no way means that he will prove the better player over time. That is yet to be determined... despite any claims made here on this board to the contrary.
Well said, Mark is going to be a fine NHL player. Comparing Q stats to OHL stats is a bit sketchy - scores and points seem to be inflated ther, but they don't necessarily turn out better talent. In fact, most of the best talent has historically come out of the OHL.

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Chevaldayoff has no connection to Hawerchuck...
Neither does the Atlanta scouting staff who were the people who pumped his tires...
No, but they did have a big connection to Barrie. Thrasher scouts were frequent visitors to Colts games (Little, Burmistrov, Scheifele).

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01-29-2013, 12:41 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
It would be 18 Colts games. He will play minimum 5 nhl games. He won't play in barrie's games on the 30th or the first. And really no way to know with playoffs.

It'll be close either way. I think he'd be better off playing and practising with pros in an intense schedule. But I'm not in charge here.

I also don't know if Noel is willing to shelter him
Pretty sure they expect him back in Barrie. As far as the playoffs go, it would be an absolute SHOCK if the Colts don't play at least 10 games this year with Scheifele. Even without him they are currently one of the top 2-3 hottest teams in the league. You rarely see 8 seeds knocking off 1 seeds in the OHL.

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01-29-2013, 12:49 AM
  #443
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It really doesn't matter if they expect him back in Barrie. Only people that know how this is gonna play out is jets management.

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01-29-2013, 01:02 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
It really doesn't matter if they expect him back in Barrie. Only people that know how this is gonna play out is jets management.
Do you think they keep their thoughts to themselves, or communicate with their Junior partners? Hmmm...

Can plans change? Of course, but it appears as though the Colts have had some indication that he will be back. People who are usually plugged in are starting to report that it is a matter of time.

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01-29-2013, 01:13 AM
  #445
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No, but they did have a big connection to Barrie. Thrasher scouts were frequent visitors to Colts games (Little, Burmistrov, Scheifele).
I was more showing how the Jets 1.0 connection that all the HFBoard members like to speculate is false. (I've seen it on here and the main boards LOTS)
The Colts connection I did know.

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01-29-2013, 01:14 AM
  #446
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Why would the Jets mention anything to Barrie, a team they have zero connection to?

Frankly I'm more inclined to believe Bob Mackenzie who has said the Jets are going to take their time before they make a choice.

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01-29-2013, 01:45 AM
  #447
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Why would the Jets mention anything to Barrie, a team they have zero connection to?

Frankly I'm more inclined to believe Bob Mackenzie who has said the Jets are going to take their time before they make a choice.
Why wouldn't they? They want to keep good relationships with junior teams. If it's the Oil Kings, I can understand why they wouldn't, but the Colts don't have NHL owners. They can either work with junior teams to help develop their players, or they don't...if it's the latter, when they're looking for some support with a prospect they can expect like treatment in return. I know factually that there is interaction between NHL and Junior teams. I've watched practices were it's been discussed on the ice (not with Mark and not this year, but I have witnessed it).

Guess we'll see. I'm indifferent as to what they do...I think there are pros and cons either way. At the end of the day Mark is going to be a good NHLer. I think the projections most have here are realistic - solid low end first line centre. As for the Colts, they have plenty of firepower & they are 5-1-0-1 since he left...they are going deep in the playoffs regardless, and centre ice isn't going to be the issue if they don't. From a personal point of view I moved to Edmonton last summer so it's not like I will have the pleasure of watching him play on a nightly basis anymore either way...

I do find some of the posts putting down the level of competition in the OHL humourous. For every "16 year old" there are two to three 21 year olds in the league and the former usually get the bulk of the minutes. Sure, it's not the NHL but there is something to be said for playing meaningful minutes there rather than 4th line scrub minutes in the NHL... It never hurt Corey Perry or Bobby Ryan to play their final year of OHL (or Bryan Little, or Alex Pietrangelo, or, or, or)...

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01-29-2013, 08:36 AM
  #448
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My concern with Scheiffle staying up is the lack of practise time in a compressed NHL schedule.

If he can get good practise, learn the NHL game, slowly earn minutes then it will bode well for his NHL career.

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01-29-2013, 08:52 AM
  #449
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Originally Posted by JetsFan815 View Post
Imagine if Jets existed during the 06 draft. Chevy, an up and coming GM gets chance to pick the 8th overall pick for the Winnipeg Jets. Instead of picking the "safe, consensus" pick in James Sheppard he decides to go "off the board" and drafts kid by the name of Claude Giroux. Soon Sheppard is up playing in the NHL, certain Jets fans are furious, "look at Sheppard" they say, "He's already in the NHL where's Giroux the scrub is still stuck in the QMJHL". The next year Giroux gets sent back to the juniors again after getting a brief look while Sheppard plays another season in the NHL. Rage rises among a segment of Jets fans "Shoulda drafted Sheppard instead of Giroux the bust, told ya so", look where we are today.

I'm not saying that Scheifele is going to turn into a Claude Giroux, the point here is people will feel like idiots if Scheifele comes thorough on his potential. 19 yr olds don't typically play in the NHL, look at Strome and Zibenajad who were drafted ahead of Scheifele and are in the same boat as Scheifele when it comes to playing in the NHL. Do you see Isles and Sens fans declaring them busts?

Edit: Just read the last couple of pages of this thread and I must say that I'm very disappointed in certain people who seem to wanna do nothing but beat down on a 19 yr old prospect. It's a shame really
Agree with the above and there are a substantial number of us who get it.
As for the people you refer to in your last paragraph, the ones who incessantly repeat the same negative mantra without evidence or justification... my approach is to simply ignore them (with mixed success)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Why wouldn't they? They want to keep good relationships with junior teams. If it's the Oil Kings, I can understand why they wouldn't, but the Colts don't have NHL owners. They can either work with junior teams to help develop their players, or they don't...if it's the latter, when they're looking for some support with a prospect they can expect like treatment in return. I know factually that there is interaction between NHL and Junior teams. I've watched practices were it's been discussed on the ice (not with Mark and not this year, but I have witnessed it).

Guess we'll see. I'm indifferent as to what they do...I think there are pros and cons either way. At the end of the day Mark is going to be a good NHLer. I think the projections most have here are realistic - solid low end first line centre. As for the Colts, they have plenty of firepower & they are 5-1-0-1 since he left...they are going deep in the playoffs regardless, and centre ice isn't going to be the issue if they don't. From a personal point of view I moved to Edmonton last summer so it's not like I will have the pleasure of watching him play on a nightly basis anymore either way...

I do find some of the posts putting down the level of competition in the OHL humourous. For every "16 year old" there are two to three 21 year olds in the league and the former usually get the bulk of the minutes. Sure, it's not the NHL but there is something to be said for playing meaningful minutes there rather than 4th line scrub minutes in the NHL... It never hurt Corey Perry or Bobby Ryan to play their final year of OHL (or Bryan Little, or Alex Pietrangelo, or, or, or)...
Agree with your comments and have made a similar case myself. The Scheifele situation has been beaten to death on this board and, by now, many with a balanced view have moved on.
The one 'new' thing that stands out for me in the Jets' current handling of Scheif is a positive one. By spreading his 5 games over a longer period, he gets to stay with the team, bond with them and, most importantly, PRACTICE with them. That's a lot more NHL minutes than some might appreciate and it sends this message to him: we value you and, though you may not quite be ready for prime time, you are a big part of this team's future.

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01-29-2013, 09:36 AM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post

.... Sure, it's not the NHL but there is something to be said for playing meaningful minutes there rather than 4th line scrub minutes in the NHL... It never hurt Corey Perry or Bobby Ryan to play their final year of OHL (or Bryan Little, or Alex Pietrangelo, or, or, or)...
while i do agree with the vast majority of your post, this is one little part i'm having a bit of an issue with.

It's not an extra season in the ohl

It is, by your own count, 68 games in the OHL with big minutes(maximum), versus 30 games in the OHL with big minutes + 38 games(minimum) in the NHL with smaller minutes.

I know its the start of the season, but its not September. He's already had half that season that bobby ryan, and corry perry and, and and, all benefitted from. It's impossible to say that had their final year of junio had the NHL season start half way through they wouldn't have been brought up.

Contract arguments (don't burn ELC, etc etc etc) should not be a consideration as well.

otherwise, i do agree, the signing of wellwood put the jets in a position that mark has to "force" his way on. At this point, i don't know if he has, i still feel he's right on the cusp, so if his last two games are productive, he'll stay.

I'll be fine with managements call as he's definitely close enough to go either way, just getting a little exasperated at this train of thought that being relegated to junior will somehow be magically much better for him when it's likely he'll he'd up getting the same amount of minutes (total) if he stays up.

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