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GDT: Liberal Debates

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Old
02-23-2013, 05:06 PM
  #101
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It's not so much anger but exasperation.

For every post about the actual debates - there's like 2 talking about Trudeau.

I think most of us who actually wanted to read opinions on the debates and candidates got it quite a long time ago.

To pick the biggest offender in my eyes: some of what Westcoaster writes makes sense but the reality of all his posts on Trudeau is that he throws as much **** as he can and hopes that some of it sticks with people here.

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02-23-2013, 05:40 PM
  #102
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I suspect this would be one of the attack lines against Garneau, he' s too accomplished, thus "not one of us".
That would be a horrible strategy from the CPC. Considering Garneau's military background I think the CPC can't attack his experience without offending their own supporters. Last thing you want after 10 years in power is an apathetic support base.

Ignatieff was easy to attack because his work is so abstract to the average Canadian, not to mention he was a poor politician anyway.

The only hope for Trudeau to win an election is if he can win huge in Quebec, he has zero chance to win anything out west, he's just too toxic out here. Personally I think Trudeau will put his foot in his mouth and the separatists will take advantage of this.

Garneau in my opinion can win more seats for the LPC in Quebec while withering away soft CPC support across the country.

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02-23-2013, 07:06 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Just look at how much Harper and the Conservatives owned Michael Iggnatief, a leader who had tons more political experience, ability, and credibility. If they were able to bury him like they did then imagine what will happen once they start on Trudeau? The only good thing that Trudeau will have for him is that he will have two years before he actually has to debate Harper, but even with those two years it will likely not be pretty.
That is how I read the tea leaves as well.

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02-23-2013, 07:11 PM
  #104
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Wait a minute , didn't you just say he's treated with kids gloves? It seems Garneau or Finley did not get your memo. Nor did pretty much every writer at National Post, with one of them comparing Justin and Trudeau "dinasty" with North Korea's Kims. By the way, how many hard questions did Garneau faced?

It really worked well last time Liberals went to eachother's throat in leadership debates, with one of the most effective Conservative adds against Dion being a clip from the Liberal debates with Ignatieff grilling Dion.
This was criticism is not only mild it is warranted and the LPC is setting its hair on fire.

The last LPC candidate (MHF) to criticize Justin was forced to apologize. Absurd.

If the LPC leadership race is to show who can stand the rigours of a political campaign and go head to head with the PM and Leader of the Official Opposition, this race is failing miserably.

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02-23-2013, 07:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by peon View Post
It's not so much anger but exasperation.

For every post about the actual debates - there's like 2 talking about Trudeau.

I think most of us who actually wanted to read opinions on the debates and candidates got it quite a long time ago.

To pick the biggest offender in my eyes: some of what Westcoaster writes makes sense but the reality of all his posts on Trudeau is that he throws as much **** as he can and hopes that some of it sticks with people here.
You are opposed to informed criticism? You must be a member of the LPC.

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02-23-2013, 07:57 PM
  #106
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That would be a horrible strategy from the CPC. Considering Garneau's military background I think the CPC can't attack his experience without offending their own supporters. Last thing you want after 10 years in power is an apathetic support base.
Yes, I agree with that. However I am sure they fill find something else to attack him, the Conservatives are a crafty bunch.

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The only hope for Trudeau to win an election is if he can win huge in Quebec, he has zero chance to win anything out west, he's just too toxic out here. Personally I think Trudeau will put his foot in his mouth and the separatists will take advantage of this.

Garneau in my opinion can win more seats for the LPC in Quebec while withering away soft CPC support across the country.
I think Liberals in general will have a tough time in the West, Trudeau or not Trudeau. There is this myth that Liberals misfortunes in the West are directly connected with old Trudeau. It is enough to look at the seat distribution of elections result after WW2 to see that this is simply wrong. I doubt the West will look more favorably on the Liberals because of Garneau alone.

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02-23-2013, 08:03 PM
  #107
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This was criticism is not only mild it is warranted and the LPC is setting its hair on fire.

The last LPC candidate (MHF) to criticize Justin was forced to apologize. Absurd.

If the LPC leadership race is to show who can stand the rigours of a political campaign and go head to head with the PM and Leader of the Official Opposition, this race is failing miserably.
Who forced MHF to apologize? She did so because what she said was downright stupid and reflected poorly on her. Frankly Justin responded pretty well to her criticism (it reminded me of a line from Gladiator :" I don't pretend to be a man of the people. But I do try to be a man for the people. " ) I'd like to see Conservative pull a similar type of attack as MHF so we'd have an excuse to dig into personal fortunes of Conservatives candidates. Somehow I doubt they are of modest means.

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02-23-2013, 08:14 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
Who forced MHF to apologize? She did so because what she said was downright stupid and reflected poorly on her. Frankly Justin responded pretty well to her criticism (it reminded me of a line from Gladiator :" I don't pretend to be a man of the people. But I do try to be a man for the people. " ) I'd like to see Conservative pull a similar type of attack as MHF so we'd have an excuse to dig into personal fortunes of Conservatives candidates. Somehow I doubt they are of modest means.
According to reports pressure was brought to bear on her by the LPC.

If Trudeau cannot take that jab (and it was true) then he is going to be cannon fodder for the CPC and NDP.

Basic message to Justin... suck it up princess. The roller coaster ride has not even begun.

Feel free to do so. Politics is a blood sport. If you think that Harper and Mulcair had the life of privilege of Justin, have at it.

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02-23-2013, 08:16 PM
  #109
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Double post.

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02-23-2013, 08:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
According to reports pressure was brought to bear on her by the LPC.
Link? Where is the proof of that?

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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
If Trudeau cannot take that jab (and it was true) then he is going to be cannon fodder for the CPC and NDP.

Basic message to Justin... suck it up princess. The roller coaster ride has not even begun.
I think he took the jab pretty well. He basically admitted of coming from a privileged life and said that this should not disqualify anyone for running for public office (and this is true). What would you have said in his place?


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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Feel free to do so. Politics is a blood sport. If you think that Harper and Mulcair had the life of privilege of Justin, have at it.
I was referring to all Conservatives candidates, not just the leaders. In fact I suspect many/most politicians are hardly "middle class", thus representative of the largest segment of the electorate.

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02-24-2013, 12:27 AM
  #111
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Link? Where is the proof of that?

I think he took the jab pretty well. He basically admitted of coming from a privileged life and said that this should not disqualify anyone for running for public office (and this is true). What would you have said in his place?


I was referring to all Conservatives candidates, not just the leaders. In fact I suspect many/most politicians are hardly "middle class", thus representative of the largest segment of the electorate.
Surely you can make the proper inference from her own statement. “There are some who believe that I overstepped a line in the leadership debate yesterday,” Hall Findlay wrote in a statement on her website.

Per the National Post:
The problem for Hall Findlay is that her party doesn’t want to hear it. When she offered her mild reproof of Trudeau — who screwed up his face at the indignity of being challenged — she was hooted down by the audience and had to talk over their jeers and boos. One would think Liberals who turn out to hear a “debate” would want just that — different viewpoints, forcefully put. If a candidate can’t stand up to other Liberals, do you want to push him or her out to face Stephen Harper or Thomas Mulcair, not to mention the attack dogs of Question Period? Hall Findlay even felt obliged to apologize the next day for her effrontery.
No Justin did not take it well, he screwed up his face like a petulant teenager.

Why would you refer to all Conservative candidates? We are dealing people seeking to lead the LPC.

And even if you were, you would find the vast majority candidates do not approach the lofty levels of the order of the silver spoon enjoyed by Justin. Most made it by dint of their own accomplishments and not because their father was famous.

My criticism of Justin is not that he was born into privilege per se but rather despite that head start he has done very little of note. He is famous for being famous because of his surname.

And here is what MHF had to say in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen.
“The party has to make a decision on far more substantial and fundamental decisions than celebrity,” she said. “There is no such thing as a silver bullet. This is a really big decision and it is absolutely a question of substance and experience. It’s also not about celebrity. Fame is fickle.”

“I have all sorts of respect for Justin and the celebrity he brings to the party is fantastic, but I wouldn’t be running for the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada if I felt he had enough experience and substance to be a prime minister.”

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02-24-2013, 02:55 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Surely you can make the proper inference from her own statement. “There are some who believe that I overstepped a line in the leadership debate yesterday,” Hall Findlay wrote in a statement on her website.

Per the National Post:
The problem for Hall Findlay is that her party doesn’t want to hear it. When she offered her mild reproof of Trudeau — who screwed up his face at the indignity of being challenged — she was hooted down by the audience and had to talk over their jeers and boos. One would think Liberals who turn out to hear a “debate” would want just that — different viewpoints, forcefully put. If a candidate can’t stand up to other Liberals, do you want to push him or her out to face Stephen Harper or Thomas Mulcair, not to mention the attack dogs of Question Period? Hall Findlay even felt obliged to apologize the next day for her effrontery.
No Justin did not take it well, he screwed up his face like a petulant teenager.

Why would you refer to all Conservative candidates? We are dealing people seeking to lead the LPC.

And even if you were, you would find the vast majority candidates do not approach the lofty levels of the order of the silver spoon enjoyed by Justin. Most made it by dint of their own accomplishments and not because their father was famous.

My criticism of Justin is not that he was born into privilege per se but rather despite that head start he has done very little of note. He is famous for being famous because of his surname.

And here is what MHF had to say in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen.
“The party has to make a decision on far more substantial and fundamental decisions than celebrity,” she said. “There is no such thing as a silver bullet. This is a really big decision and it is absolutely a question of substance and experience. It’s also not about celebrity. Fame is fickle.”

“I have all sorts of respect for Justin and the celebrity he brings to the party is fantastic, but I wouldn’t be running for the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada if I felt he had enough experience and substance to be a prime minister.”
Your criticism has more merit than what MHF actually said in that debate. And yeah, some did think MHF stepped over the line, so she apologized, not because she was forced, but because she wants a future in the party. She's free to say whatever she wants and apologize whenever she wants, and the party is free to not take her seriously when she can't even coherently attack a Justin Trudeau who is pretty easy to attack.

It's not a forced apology, your logic is as flawed as the logic Harper spewed in 2011 that coalition governments were somehow undemocratic and is also as flawed as the argument that Hillary was screwed in 2008 because she chose to invest resources in states which had no delegates on the line. Political Parties are free to ostracize members who have self-destructive tendencies.

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02-24-2013, 03:14 AM
  #113
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The Conservatives demonization of and crusade against coalition governments was really something to behold in the history of Canadian politics. It's pretty impressive to think just how completely wrong they were and yet nobody with any credibility even attempted to correct them.

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02-24-2013, 03:42 AM
  #114
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The Conservatives demonization of and crusade against coalition governments was really something to behold in the history of Canadian politics. It's pretty impressive to think just how completely wrong they were and yet nobody with any credibility even attempted to correct them.
That was cool to watch.


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02-24-2013, 10:51 AM
  #115
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The Conservatives demonization of and crusade against coalition governments was really something to behold in the history of Canadian politics. It's pretty impressive to think just how completely wrong they were and yet nobody with any credibility even attempted to correct them.
Harper was treating it like a travesty of King-Byng proportions when it's clearly standard parliamentary procedure. Such a disaster that no one called him out on that.

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02-24-2013, 11:06 AM
  #116
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Harper was treating it like a travesty of King-Byng proportions when it's clearly standard parliamentary procedure. Such a disaster that no one called him out on that.
And yet that issue resonated more with the voters than the Liberal attempt to focus on the alleged contempt of Parliament. The Liberals found that the claimed contempt had virtually no traction with the voters and abandoned that as an issue early on during the election.

In politics you do not have to be great, just better than the other guys.

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02-24-2013, 11:27 AM
  #117
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You are opposed to informed criticism? You must be a member of the LPC.
Informed? Like I said, you're a monkey - you throw ****, hope some of it sticks. There's no coherence or logic to your posts in this thread. It's just 'oh a negative news article on Trudeau - better post it and attempt to be witty', 'oh a positive news article on Trudeau - better post it, mock Trudeau'.

Edit: And beyond the most BASIC concepts of constitutional law you've proved time and again you're completely uninformed.

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02-24-2013, 12:01 PM
  #118
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And yet that issue resonated more with the voters than the Liberal attempt to focus on the alleged contempt of Parliament. The Liberals found that the claimed contempt had virtually no traction with the voters and abandoned that as an issue early on during the election.

In politics you do not have to be great, just better than the other guys.
So at the end of the day, lies or truths makes no difference. What matters is whether it resonates with the electorate. I am sure however if the tables were turned and Liberals came up with the 'undemocratic' bit about coalitions, you would have swamped the boards with endless quotes from legal documents to explain that they don't know how electoral system in Canada works.

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02-24-2013, 12:08 PM
  #119
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Informed? Like I said, you're a monkey - you throw ****, hope some of it sticks. There's no coherence or logic to your posts in this thread. It's just 'oh a negative news article on Trudeau - better post it and attempt to be witty', 'oh a positive news article on Trudeau - better post it, mock Trudeau'.

Edit: And beyond the most BASIC concepts of constitutional law you've proved time and again you're completely uninformed.
And you would be in error.

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02-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #120
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So at the end of the day, lies or truths makes no difference. What matters is whether it resonates with the electorate. I am sure however if the tables were turned and Liberals came up with the 'undemocratic' bit about coalitions, you would have swamped the boards with endless quotes from legal documents to explain that they don't know how electoral system in Canada works.
Nope, the electorate decides what matters to them and they saw through the claim of contempt of Parliament.

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02-24-2013, 12:16 PM
  #121
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Nope, the electorate decides what matters to them and they saw through the claim of contempt of Parliament.
You mean 'yes, lies or truths don't matter', because the assertion that coalition was undemocratic was an obvious lie. Anyways, that's water under the bridge. We'll have to see what new lies resonate with the electorate. Justin is the son of Satan? Actually, for some this would be true....

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02-24-2013, 02:53 PM
  #122
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You mean 'yes, lies or truths don't matter', because the assertion that coalition was undemocratic was an obvious lie. Anyways, that's water under the bridge. We'll have to see what new lies resonate with the electorate. Justin is the son of Satan? Actually, for some this would be true....
Nope, not what I mean.

In the words of The Great Communicator - Dubya.



And there is clear proof of this as the legendary Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine noted.


As noted at the end of this speech - Who can argue with that???

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02-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #123
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You mean 'yes, lies or truths don't matter', because the assertion that coalition was undemocratic was an obvious lie. Anyways, that's water under the bridge. We'll have to see what new lies resonate with the electorate. Justin is the son of Satan? Actually, for some this would be true....
Justin Trudeau is French, I mean he was literally born in France, I need to see a birth certificate.

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02-24-2013, 03:26 PM
  #124
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Justin Trudeau is French, I mean he was literally born in France, I need to see a birth certificate.
Actually Justin was born in Ottawa.

Margaret was primarily Anglo-Scots descent and Pierre was born of a French Canadian businessman and Scots/French-Canadian mother.

So Justin is a native Ontarian (like Harper) and not so "pur laine", eh?


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02-24-2013, 04:00 PM
  #125
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actually justin was born in ottawa.

Margaret was primarily anglo-scots descent and pierre was born of a french canadian businessman and scots/french-canadian mother.

So justin is a native ontarian (like harper) and not so "pur laine", eh?
suuuuuuuuurrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee...

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