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01-21-2013, 04:47 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who understands the game (note: not EA Sports NHL dynasty owners) that would take Matt Duchene over Ryan O'Reilly. Nevermind two or three years ago, I'm talking about now and the future. O'Reilly has strengths in his game that Duchene does not even comprehend how to perform at a respectable level. Duchene may very well outscore O'Reilly in every season they play in this league(I don't think so), but O'Reilly is the much better hockey player... and his camp knows that.

$3.5m - $4m, after giving Duchene $3.25m, is basically a slap in the face to Ryan O'Reilly. I personally don't give a crap where they were drafted.

5 x 5. Get it done already, it's going to suck seeing him carry another organization on his back.



Interesting take on it, but certainly incorrect in this day and age.
TPS, given how the negotiations have gone, and you saying you'd be surprised if Ryan plays another game in an Avs uniform, are you in a position to tell us any info on the following:

Has Ryan expressed any desire to not play for the Avs since the negotiations have turned a bit sour? Or is he, as far as you know, more of the mindset that it's just business and it's getting a bit unseemly?

If you don't want to answer publicly you could PM me, but if you're not in a position to say I understand

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01-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #177
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Hell, at this point I'd give him the 5x5 and trade his ass.
agreed. sign him to it and move him.

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01-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #178
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5 x 5 would be a great deal if ROR keeps progressing. The issue is that there is no way to be sure that he will. If his point totals had gone 26 - 45 - 55, I would be much more likely to want to sign that deal. As it sits now he had one good offensive season, and there still is a lot unknown about how he will progress. I don't mind paying him more than Duchene at all. On a 2 year deal I think it would be okay to do 4-4.5 per. On a 5 year deal there is just too much risk that he regresses, the Avs got burned by Stastny (who is a $5m center not a 6.6m) and are understandably gun shy about the long term deal.

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01-21-2013, 05:07 PM
  #179
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I won't discuss this topic further here, I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my opinions and some of the info I've gotten. If it was up to me... O'Ry/Winny/TJ/Sauce/etc. would all have lifetime contracts from me. I can't be neutral here so I'll shut up.

However, I will say this though...

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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
I always thought that ROR played hockey the right way. I always thought he would be the quiet heart and soul of this team going forward. But it does not look like he values being a member of this team anylonger. He is hurting this team big time right now with his behavior.
...I'd like to see how people here would deal with this situation themselves. It's easy to say "sign the contract, you're a millionaire either way." This is somebody's life, not just their profession. Everybody is entitled to go and get the absolute top dollar they can, be it a sports athlete or a newspaper boy who's offered a dollar more to take the busy route.

Nothing about this has changed the way Ryan O'Reilly plays hockey, pushes himself to the extreme, carries massive expectations of himself, and would go through the freakin' wall for his teammates. They(his teammates) know that, so why can't we accept that as fans?

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01-21-2013, 05:15 PM
  #180
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The agent for Avalanche center Ryan O'Reilly on Monday said the restricted free agent is not asking for a short-term contract at $5 million annually, but declined to specify what has been offered or how far apart the sides remain.

"People report numbers without any mention of term and it is just as important a consideration," agent Mark Guy wrote in a text message.

Last week, an NHL source told The Denver Post that O'Reilly, 21, was seeking $5 million a year and turned down two deals: two years, $7 million ($3.5 million average) and five years worth $17 million ($3.4 million average) .

But Guy said a salary of that amount would only apply to O'Reilly if signed to a long-term deal that brought him past unrestricted free agency at age 27. He turns 22 on Feb. 7.

"It is not accurate to say a player wants X dollars without factoring the term (and) any suggestion that Ryan is asking for $5 million on a deal similar to (Matt) Duchene is completely inaccurate," Guy said.
http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/...mpaign=twitter

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01-21-2013, 05:20 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
Nothing about this has changed the way Ryan O'Reilly plays hockey, pushes himself to the extreme, carries massive expectations of himself, and would go through the freakin' wall for his teammates. They(his teammates) know that, so why can't we accept that as fans?
He is, no matter how much you like him, trying to blackmail the team here. He is doing it during a season when the team was supposed to take the next step. Of course that is going to create some fan backlash.

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01-21-2013, 05:22 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I won't discuss this topic further here, I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my opinions and some of the info I've gotten. If it was up to me... O'Ry/Winny/TJ/Sauce/etc. would all have lifetime contracts from me. I can't be neutral here so I'll shut up.
However, I will say this though...



...I'd like to see how people here would deal with this situation themselves. It's easy to say "sign the contract, you're a millionaire either way." This is somebody's life, not just their profession. Everybody is entitled to go and get the absolute top dollar they can, be it a sports athlete or a newspaper boy who's offered a dollar more to take the busy route.

Nothing about this has changed the way Ryan O'Reilly plays hockey, pushes himself to the extreme, carries massive expectations of himself, and would go through the freakin' wall for his teammates. They(his teammates) know that, so why can't we accept that as fans?
I mean this in the most positive way. But of course you can't remain unbiased. As you said, these guys are your friends. I know myself I stand by my friends through thick and thin.

But I hope the negativity won't stop you from posting here, believe me, your insight is valuable to some people here.

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01-21-2013, 05:24 PM
  #183
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Completely disagree. ROR and his agent are standing in Russia, cupping their own balls. They have no leverage -- which is why they have no NHL contract.
Right now it's true , but the table could turn if the avs starts the season on a losing streak. Let say that we start 0-5 or something like that and the fans start chanting : we want Radar ... That would be a whole new ball game .

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01-21-2013, 05:25 PM
  #184
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Imagine if HF had been around when Sakic signed the Rangers offer sheet? That would have been fun.

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01-21-2013, 05:25 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Sounds like it is short term between 4 and 5 million (probably to the lower end), or long term at $5m.

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01-21-2013, 05:31 PM
  #186
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i agree that ROR plays the game right, i've said he's been our most complete player almost since he's been on the ice with the Avs.
but 4.25 mil should be the absolute cap on a deal with him right now.
he hasn't put together enough seasons nor flashed the franchise potential to command more than that. he should be a 3.5-3.8 mil guy but assuming a longer term and inflation of deals for similar guys in the future 4.25 is about right.

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01-21-2013, 05:31 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
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Of course he is gonna say that. He is trying to make him and the representatives of O'Reilly seem like the good guys.

But, I don't think anyone actually was saying that O'Reilly wants 5mil short term. I think we have only been thinking he wants 5mil/5+y, which is exactly what he is saying.

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01-21-2013, 05:33 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Sounds like it is short term between 4 and 5 million (probably to the lower end), or long term at $5m.
See if Im the Avs I give him these 2 offers right now:

3 Years 13 Million for a 4.33M cap hit, and still an RFA when his contract expires, OR 8 years 40 Million for a 5M cap hit.

Give him these 2 offers and say look, take it or leave that's the best you're getting from us. If he doesn't accept either of those deals, he's gone this time tomorrow.

No more games, one way or another we have a very valuable asset that could really be helping us sitting out right now. Whether that's Oreilly himself or the return we would get for him in a trade, whatever it is its not helping is right now at all. And in a shortened season like this every game means a lot, we cant afford to have such a valuable asset not in our lineup.

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01-21-2013, 05:43 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
See if Im the Avs I give him these 2 offers right now:

3 Years 13 Million for a 4.33M cap hit, and still an RFA when his contract expires, OR 8 years 40 Million for a 5M cap hit.

Give him these 2 offers and say look, take it or leave that's the best you're getting from us. If he doesn't accept either of those deals, he's gone this time tomorrow.

No more games, one way or another we have a very valuable asset that could really be helping us sitting out right now. Whether that's Oreilly himself or the return we would get for him in a trade, whatever it is its not helping is right now at all. And in a shortened season like this every game means a lot, we cant afford to have such a valuable asset not in our lineup.
This sounds about right to me. It would be a big leap to offer the 8 year deal, but there is enough incentive for both sides to seriously look at the 3 years deal. Arbitration is a scary proposition though.

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01-21-2013, 05:45 PM
  #190
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Just pay him already

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01-21-2013, 05:46 PM
  #191
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The Sakic situation is a bit different, every RFA is free to sign any deal offered by a team.. much in the same way I doubt many Predators fans hate Weber for signing a sheet. Even if Sakic had signed and we didn't match we would have gotten multiple draft picks.

In this case we're playing around with a guy who wants UFA/Big money deal without an NHL offer by anyone.

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01-21-2013, 05:52 PM
  #192
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I suppose I'm a fool for thinking so, but that makes me think they must be close. Then again, if they're that close, why don't we have a deal?

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01-21-2013, 05:53 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
This sounds about right to me. It would be a big leap to offer the 8 year deal, but there is enough incentive for both sides to seriously look at the 3 years deal. Arbitration is a scary proposition though.
Meh the way I see it 8 years at 5M has the potential to be an insanely good contract for the Avs. I mean say Oreilly signs that and then goes on to play at a 70-80 point pace for the next 4-5 years and wins a Selke or 2. If we signed him to a 5 year deal he would easily get 7.5M+ after 5 years with that type of production, by signing him to 8 years at 5M we could be looking at the best value for a player in the league.

And at worst, Oreilly is a very reliable 3C who should be good for at least 30 points a year, those guys generally make between 2.5-3.5M right now, so Oreilly would only be overpaid by about 1.5M if he were to regress and stay at that level.

The likely event is Oreillys offense develops maybe slightly more to say 60-65 points and his Defensive game is already elite. That type of player gets paid 5.5-6M in the league right now. So for 5M Oreilly would be a good contract.

I would rather sign him long term then short term. Short term has the potential to bite us in the ass a lot more then a long term deal. At least in my opinion anyway.

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01-21-2013, 05:57 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
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The agent for Avalanche center Ryan O'Reilly on Monday said the restricted free agent is not asking for a short-term contract at $5 million annually, but declined to specify what has been offered or how far apart the sides remain.

"People report numbers without any mention of term and it is just as important a consideration," agent Mark Guy wrote in a text message.

Last week, an NHL source told The Denver Post that O'Reilly, 21, was seeking $5 million a year and turned down two deals: two years, $7 million ($3.5 million average) and five years worth $17 million ($3.4 million average) .

But Guy said a salary of that amount would only apply to O'Reilly if signed to a long-term deal that brought him past unrestricted free agency at age 27. He turns 22 on Feb. 7.

"It is not accurate to say a player wants X dollars without factoring the term (and) any suggestion that Ryan is asking for $5 million on a deal similar to (Matt) Duchene is completely inaccurate," Guy said.

http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/...mpaign=twitter
Interesting, some new info finally.

We now know that he isn't asking for $5M on a two year deal. We don't however know that he wasn't asking for $4.75M or less, because he would have said that. In fact I would hazard a speculative guess that they were asking for $5M at one point, and have now softened to around $4.5-4.75M which is nearly impossible to do given Duchene's contract.

It also sounds like he probably is asking for $5M on a long term deal, because he made a point to emphasize that wasn't the number for the short term deal, instead of just saying he doesn't want $5M.

I'm reading into it a lot, but he kind of made things fairly clear with his words, and the numbers he picked.

Also funny that Guy complained the people reported the numbers without mentioning the term, when the Post has been doing exactly that for the last week.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 01-21-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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01-21-2013, 05:59 PM
  #195
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Rrrrrright.

I absolutely cannot stand it when people compare RFA signings to UFA signings. They are not comparable in any way. UFAs are almost ALWAYS paid more because of the asset management associated to it. If you dont give it to Jones, you end up giving it to some other UFA.

RFAs still stay within the system. Even if other teams want to poach RFAs, the team will always get compensation.

The leverage in each situation is not even remotely the same, as is the situation of each individual player. So comparing their salaries is beyond out to lunch.

Secondly, for you two criticizing management for not signing this guy, how can you possibly do so when you absolutely no idea what O'Reilly's camp is asking for?
What we do know is he signed a 2yr deal in Russia. What we do know is that he requires more than his KHL deal. What we know is that hes refused two different deals which payed 3.4M and 3.5M per year.

The avs are a team that is built through youth. That youth is developing, and, in time, lots of players will be needing new contracts.

The problem with O'Reilly is we still have no idea what to expect on an offensive level, consistently, nor Stastny, nor Duchene. And therein lies the major problem. If O'Reilly continues with 50-60 pts and Duchene starts reaching in the 70+, O'Reilly's contract will be a huge sticking point to Duchene's agents.

If O'Reilly is signed to a 5M+ deal, Duchene will easily be able to command 6+. How about Landeskog. Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does.

Yes, I agree with you guys. Lets completely overpay one of our centers just because we want him to play. BUT, lets completely disregard all problems that can arise from it, and just sign him. Because, Oreilly, and his petulant attitude, are the types of guys you win cups with.
Great post, and 100% true.

Look, this team as is simply isn't enough to win a stanley cup without some kind of miracle run with Varlamov on his head.. the D is awful outside of EJ.. I mean honestly we'd need to spend a good 10-15m on D just to be a real contender AND have our young core grow into stars.

I see this attitude of pay him whatever he wants, what's 1m when you have all this cap space.. soo Varly, Duchene, Landeskog, etc will all want to be overpaid and all the sudden that cap space (which is naturally going to go away when we have to sign these guys long term) is going to be tigher and tigher and you might lose one of them because of that, and the tank seasons were for nothing.

I understand why Avs fans are desperate to go for it, we're coming off a lockout, it's been a few years since we've been legit competitors for even the playoffs.. and yet here we are in maybe our most exciting and fresh look in years. We have a new captain, it looks like we finally found our #1 after years of trial and error in life after Roy.. that going without ROR seems deal breaking but they can't mortgage the future for one player.. hell the timing of it is what pisses me off the most.

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01-21-2013, 06:02 PM
  #196
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I still don't see how they can make a deal with ROR that pays him more than Duchene. Duchene takes a two year deal at 3.5 to prove himself, and then we just cash ROR out for his one good season? What the hell kind of message does that send? I personally think ROR can be a #1 center for us, and he probably will be worth the money he is asking for. However, that deal cannot happen after only one good season. He should take the same deal Duchene is getting, with the promise that if he continues to play like he did last season, which he probably would have no problem doing, then he will be hooked up with a huge deal.

Also, we should trade Stastny for another defenseman to play with EJ, bring Scarbossa up and try him out, and that way ROR and Duchene will be guaranteed 1st and 2nd line minutes.

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01-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #197
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I still don't see how they can make a deal with ROR that pays him more than Duchene. Duchene takes a two year deal at 3.5 to prove himself, and then we just cash ROR out for his one good season? What the hell kind of message does that send? I personally think ROR can be a #1 center for us, and he probably will be worth the money he is asking for. However, that deal cannot happen after only one good season. He should take the same deal Duchene is getting, with the promise that if he continues to play like he did last season, which he probably would have no problem doing, then he will be hooked up with a huge deal.

Also, we should trade Stastny for another defenseman to play with EJ, bring Scarbossa up and try him out, and that way ROR and Duchene will be guaranteed 1st and 2nd line minutes.
That's the problem. They can't. They just can't do it. One year with better numbers than an injured Duchene doesn't get you more money on the exact same term. I'm shocked Ryan would make it so obvious to his own teammate that he thinks he's worth more than him on the same deal. Ryan got suckered by his agent into signing this KHL deal because he thought that would force the Avs into giving him good money long term, and the Avs aren't being bullied by it.

The whole thing backfired, and there's very little way to resolve it now unless O'Reilly backs off his demands for a 3+ year deal, or the Avs trade him. A two year deal is probably out of the question because the Avs won't give him more than Duchene, and that won't be enough to break the KHL deal.

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01-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #198
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The Sakic situation is a bit different, every RFA is free to sign any deal offered by a team.. much in the same way I doubt many Predators fans hate Weber for signing a sheet. Even if Sakic had signed and we didn't match we would have gotten multiple draft picks.

In this case we're playing around with a guy who wants UFA/Big money deal without an NHL offer by anyone.
It's different, sure, but it's also the closest example that we Avs fans have to this situation.

There's no denying that the NHL, as it is today, has sort of shifted towards paying for potential. Do we have to like it? No.

But, at least for me, there's no denying the potential O'Reilly has. He was a surprise out of his first training camp, and he has improved each year. Has the improvement been in his scoring? No, not necessarily, if you're only looking at his first two years.

But his goal scoring was up in year 2, even if his assists were down, he managed the same Point Scoring output.

But, as much as we all like Landeskog, and he's a good player, I think we'd be naive to think that O'Reilly's season last year was JUST becasue he played with Landeskog. Let's not forget that Winnik played on that line, and as fine a player that Winnik is, and he's good at some critical things in playing hockey, offense is NOT one of his strong suits, and there were plenty of times that the offense just died on his stick.

I would hate to see us start turning on a player just because of a contract dispute, because again, the Sakic comparison CAN be applied here, because one could use the argument that the Offer Sheet he signed, was basically a ransom, the NYR designed it to be something that would destroy the Avalanche to match.

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01-21-2013, 06:10 PM
  #199
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I suppose I'm a fool for thinking so, but that makes me think they must be close. Then again, if they're that close, why don't we have a deal?
I got the opposite feeling. If they were close, his agent would have no reason to talk to the media about the contract and tell them they're not reporting the correct facts.

It also goes against everything we've seen from the Avs. They don't like to publicly talk about contracts and the agents they're dealing with play by their rules and we never hear anything. In this case we've heard Don Meehan go on Sportsnet and talk about O'Reilly's contract and now Mark Guy is texting reporters and telling them what he may or may not be asking for. Dater keeps saying it could get ugly between Sherman/Guy and I think this would only add to that.

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01-21-2013, 06:13 PM
  #200
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The thing I am getting nervous about (which I keep reading) is ROR seems like he wants a contract to take him to free agency. Something I have to side with the Avs with (keep him as a RFA or sign him long term). As TPS said, he is a character, heart, and soul player, but why does he want a contract to take him to free agency? Does he hate our team? Does he want to explore is options? Or does he want to go closer to home?

I still think we will see him in an Avs jersey, but that part is something I am definitely concerned with. I never have seen this from Stastny.

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