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Why so much scrutiny and hate for Kadri?

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01-21-2013, 08:49 AM
  #76
4evaBlue
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
It does bode the question; would Brayden Schenn be given the same treatment had he been drafted by Toronto in 2009. As crappy as it is to think, race and descrimination may have some underlying factor.
I believe Schenn would have been considered a bust as fast as Kadri has. I don't doubt that a very small minority of the fanbase may have some racial issues, but definitely not to this extent.

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01-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
If the 1st game was any indication it looks like this is one Prospect that was handled very well.
With all the concern over rushing prospects around here, you'd think people would be happy that they were patient with Kadri even if it meant playing lesser players until they felt Kadri was ready.

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01-21-2013, 09:08 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I believe Schenn would have been considered a bust as fast as Kadri has. I don't doubt that a very small minority of the fanbase may have some racial issues, but definitely not to this extent.
It certainly isn't. It's a disgrace to occassion Leafs Nation in this sweeping fashion. Opportunistic and frivolous aspersions seems to be acceptable to the point that contrary opinion is viewed as "hate"...Before you know it, the same logic will hold that to be a Leafs fan necessarily entails support for every other franchise but Toronto.

Self-hate? No thanks.

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01-21-2013, 09:20 AM
  #79
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This has started since he was drafted a few positions over where he was expected. His style of play also warrants some of it, even last game he gave a risky pass to Gunnarsson, and was checked in the neutral zone by Emelin. I feel though that it grew even further when Wilson kept bashing him for his defensive play, ignoring players on our team who are among the worst defensive players in the league. Now that I think back the way Wilson played favourites was aggravating.

I was always Kadri's fan (well a few moments after he was drafted, like a lot of the posters here I was surprised by the pick) I think Burke and Wilson were giving him the tough love. Who is to say that wasn't the right thing to do though? Kadri looks like a much stronger player and a faster player. Its not always the greatest thing in the world to gift wrap a position for someone, he's easily earned it now though.


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01-21-2013, 09:22 AM
  #80
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I honestly just don't know. The kid brings grit and skill, sure some young mistakes, but look at what system he had with Wilson when he was up and playing. Bouncing from that kind of game down to a more defensive aware coach like Eakins must have caused his game to create certain lapses. A guy like Carlyle will bring him into his own perfectly I think. Starting him at center is huge for him. Bold prediction, but I think he'll end up replacing Bozak by the end of this year.

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01-21-2013, 09:29 AM
  #81
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01-21-2013, 09:46 AM
  #82
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I'm a huge Kadri supporter and i've always been one. I think leafs management (Especially Wilson) did a poor job managing him. He impressed in his first training camp, and everytime he was called up he made something happen. Sure he may not have made something happen on every shift, or in every game, but there are few players who can do that in the league.

This team needs a Kadri. We need an offensive dynamite who can set up plays from nothing.

I think Kadri is going to be a great player in the years to come, and i'm thankful the leafs haven't traded him yet.

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01-21-2013, 09:52 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITM View Post
I think that's the truest thing you've posted here and in truth where any criticism for one player or another stops in Leafs Nation.

It's a hypervigilant, hypercritical fan-base starving for success where a player is a saviour one night and a scapegoat the next.

Exampling Kadri as a player who when he's received criticism as something disproportionate to say...every goalie the Leafs have had since Ed Belfour, or every center the club has iced since Sundin, or every prospect selected since Wendel Clark, or every deal made since Kurvers was acquired, obscures the at times harsh reality for any player (See Matt Stajan) who does not explode onto the scene with game changing effect.

If people are going to continue that Kadri has been victimized, then the same people better quickly defend those in the media (Don Cherry, etc) and those here who, while part of Leafs Nation and who also characterize our fanbase, have been consistent in their defence of him.

And while it's convenient to cite other fanbases on a one for one sampling, it does nothing to equate the unparalleled support the Toronto Maple Leafs enjoy because of it's dedicated, sometimes myopic fans.

And if the "haters" of Leafs Nation who call themselves Leafs fans can't see the forest from the trees, than perhaps Carolina or Phoenix could use your player above team and fan base support.

It's the NHL, it's the Toronto Maple Leafs, love it or leave it, but "you" are not going to highjack it's name, it's great fans and it's good future to come because of some perceived political slight that is entirely contrived and delusional given the kind of support the player has actually had the priviledge to enjoy.

Personally I'm not opposed to a piercing discussion where merit demands it, but it's frivolous and indulgent to steer this player and his experience into areas that have actually endured true prejudice.

The implication here against Leafs Nation disgusts me. That's what I "hate" and every self-respecting Leafs fan should too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Well hate happens to all players, there were some posts after the Habs game after Dion logged over 27mins, that he looked slow, was awful after a 2-1 win. You are not going to please all Leafs fans.
But we can try to educate them.

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01-21-2013, 09:58 AM
  #84
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If anything, the majority of fans have scrutinized Ron Wilson for not giving Kadri a legitimate opportunity to earn a spot on the Leafs with adequate linemates.

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01-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #85
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From the OHL to the NHL,and the time frame Kadri got here seems average for proper developement.Dallas training him with the Marlies will likely turn out 10 times better than anything Ron Wilson could have taught him ever.

I have never ripped Kadri for anything,and likely the way he is playing now can't see there being much chance i will in the future either. His skating was elite AHL skating,and i don't think he even showed it much against the habs,and looked as good/better than the rest.

Now he gets to develope a NHL game that his AHL days are behind him. So everybody can still lay off him for a couple years,and wait to see where this leads to as a NHL'er.

He will be a first line center in 2 years,and a very good one!

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01-21-2013, 10:36 AM
  #86
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To suggest that Schenn didn't get much scrutiny is wrong IMO. He received scrutiny from day one.

In his rookiee season he was our one ray of hope, which helped him out a lot in the hate department but it quickly deteriorated from there.

Heck, our best players in Kessel and Phaneuf get no respect from far too many people around here.

Its Toronto. If we're winning, players get put on a pedestal. If we're not, they all get roasted.

....and we haven't been doing a whole lot of that winning thing in the past few years.

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01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
  #87
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Regardless of what some posters are saying, Kadri has received a totally disproportionate amount of criticism compared to any leaf that I can recall. Twitter has been an endless spew of bust comments and racist tripe while Hfboards and plenty of other sports sites have laid into the guy big time. Obviously there are myriad reasons why Kadri is unliked by some but I'm guessing his public persona, particularly his confident interviews and sometimes asinine twitter updates, play the biggest role. His ethnicity is certainly a focal point for alot of haters, as you can see from regular racist tweets, and this fact shouldn't be swept under the rug.

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01-21-2013, 10:57 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
This is exactly what OP is talking about. You just trash him with all those things that are completely unwarranted.

-What has he done to earn the reputation of being selfish?
-Have you seen his defensive game with the Marlies and how much it has improved?
-Why don't you trash 90% of the offensively gifted kids that come into the NHL with flawed defensive games?

Facts:
-He's not small, he's average NHL size for his position, 6'0 and 185 lbs.
-He's much stronger on the puck than he used to be when he first came up, again like most rookies who have to adjust from playing against kids to playing against men.
-He is grittier than most players on the Leafs, and isn't afraid to throw the body. He had 4 hits in under 10 minutes of play against Montreal. If a player averages 4 hits per game, he likely leads the NHL in hits.

The problem is, you and many posters like you have these ignorant stubborn impressions that you refuse to adjust. If a guy happens to do something bad in the one game you pay attention, you will always point to that one bad example. Go take a look at how NHL prospects develop, it's a miracle Kadri is where he is today with all the negativity he's received.

You don't see this on any other team's forum, no other team has so many guys who continuously trash their best offensive prospect. Even guys with flaws are defended, to the point of blind homerism by their fans, except Kadri. Go to the Habs board and ask them why Lois Leblanc is where he is. Or to the Oilers board about MPS. Or to the Flyers board about Brayden Schenn. Or to the Islanders board about Neiderreiter. I could go on and on with examples. None of these guys are busts yet. And they will all support and defend their guys and tell you so.

I just can't wait until you and all the haters continue to eat crow.
Exactly. Thanks. Also, players Don Cherry likes: Jordan Staal, Spezza, Savard, Duchene....Kadri.

I guess many Leafs posters on here assume they know more about hockey than Cherry.

Another poster made a good point- if Detroit kept a prospect in the minors until 21/22 it's called good development. In Toronto, the player is called a bust.

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01-21-2013, 11:01 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
In some weird world, many people believe he was given a lot of chances and failed. he was a bust.

Cherry is correct, this is his first real chance. The Leafs have really screwed up with him badly.

He has a potential of being a very good second line Centre. The idea of switching him to the wing was asinine.
Burke & Wilson really screwed up with him badly.

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01-21-2013, 11:09 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
Burke & Wilson really screwed up with him badly.
If that's the case hopefully all the Prospects are "screwed up" as badly.

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01-21-2013, 11:34 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
Wilson really screwed up with him badly.
Correction.

Kadri needed to be humbled and now he's reaping the rewards.

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01-21-2013, 11:48 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Another poster made a good point- if Detroit kept a prospect in the minors until 21/22 it's called good development. In Toronto, the player is called a bust.
Excellent point. Although I wonder if Kadri could have made the jump sooner if not for Wilson's extended tenure.

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01-21-2013, 01:01 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Clark4Ever View Post
Excellent point. Although I wonder if Kadri could have made the jump sooner if not for Wilson's extended tenure.
I'm just as happy that he didn't,and learned to improve his game in a winning atmosphere.play-offs etc. Playing for the leafs is no place for a player to develope his deficiencies unless he is dominant either offensively/defensively.

He is a pretty well rounded player now that is not a liability in the knowledge of the NHL game. I'm just happy Wilson never got his hands on him more,because Carlyle would have to re-teach him if he had.

Kadri has 10 really good years left,no problem with that. Most likely he'll be still really good well into his 30's. Why care about anything Wilson.

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01-21-2013, 01:11 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by meng666 View Post
Regardless of what some posters are saying, Kadri has received a totally disproportionate amount of criticism compared to any leaf that I can recall. Twitter has been an endless spew of bust comments and racist tripe while Hfboards and plenty of other sports sites have laid into the guy big time. Obviously there are myriad reasons why Kadri is unliked by some but I'm guessing his public persona, particularly his confident interviews and sometimes asinine twitter updates, play the biggest role. His ethnicity is certainly a focal point for alot of haters, as you can see from regular racist tweets, and this fact shouldn't be swept under the rug.
I am not a daily reader here, but I recall similar amounts of over-analyzed super criticism directed at any number of first rounders the Leafs have drafted. First, drafted in the first round of a non-playoff year by the Leafs means you have to become a franchise player. Second, from day 1 of your career the clock is ticking for immediate results and every day you aren't winning the Leafs their cup is a day you, as a prospect, have utterly failed the team, its fans, and most importantly, the reporters who cover them.

This has been true of Kadri, but it was also true of Tlusty, Antropov, Steen, Hendrickson, Convery, whoever else I'm missing going back as far as you can go.

Do the harsh critiques throw in back-handed comments about race in Kadri's case? I haven't seen it, but I'll take your word for it. That still doesn't mean the bulk of it is racially motivated. Being a top prospect, especially a self-drafted one in TOR is ricockulous. I actually think it's funny people are surprised or angry about Kadri's treatment. What has happened in this market in the last 30 years to suggest anything else could possibly happen? The upside for Kadri is if he starts to play at all like a top 6 player with a little sandpaper on a non-horrifyingly bad team, he can have the hearts and adulation of our insane fanbase the way no one really has since Wendy got dealt for Sundin (with an asterisk for Dougie who probably made it that high too).

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01-21-2013, 01:14 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Exactly. Thanks. Also, players Don Cherry likes: Jordan Staal, Spezza, Savard, Duchene....Kadri.

I guess many Leafs posters on here assume they know more about hockey than Cherry.

Another poster made a good point- if Detroit kept a prospect in the minors until 21/22 it's called good development. In Toronto, the player is called a bust.
Wrong. What do you mean "exactly" and as if to prove your assertion, you cite Cherry as being supportive of Kadri, while lambasting Leafs fans en masse as, hmm, I don't know, something hateful about Nazem Kadri, something spiteful, blind to his skill, something non-hockey related...Bull...You willfully ignore where Cherry's oft voiced opinion REFLECTS like derision within Leafs Nation FOR Nazem Kadri and THAT is antithetical to your pot-stirring opportunistic thread starting post.

Then, you want to contrast Detroit and Toronto' s development as a punctuation to your point? Again, dead wrong. Couldn't be more wrong. I don't mind a blind assertion that eventually materializes into the point you perhaps wanted, or eventually stumbles across to reach it's desitination, but noting the difference in prospect development and a fanbase's valuation in boom/bust prospects generally, doesn't speak to your implied prejudicial focus on Nazem Kadri specifically...and don't for a minute say it did.

Detroit has recent organization success, front office stability the envy of any pro team in any sport and has since the 80s taken a patient approach to development A) Because it had to and B) Because the converse didn't make sense. Toronto on the other hand is everything Detroit hasn't been...A large Canadian, success starved market, where the appearance of hope is as valuable as the stabililty of success. Unfortunately, the former has outweighed the latter every single time...And non-hockey reasons, be they economic or social may have determined the once dearth Toronto experienced in a vertical sense, but NEVER in my lifetime could you point to Leafs Nation and wonder, hmmm...do they dislike such and such player for something other than non-hockey related reasons (racial, religious)?

Absolutely not. And to imply as much is to want it to be so. And that kind of contrived opportunism has no place in Leafs Nation.

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01-21-2013, 01:19 PM
  #96
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Kadri needed development time, and now we're going to give him time to adjust to the NHL. He has a chance now, watch him run with it.

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01-21-2013, 01:21 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
If that's the case hopefully all the Prospects are "screwed up" as badly.
Pretty much. Yes its been tough seeing Kadri going up and down the last 3 years but look at him now. He's a much improved player and its showing. Who's to say all that tough love isn't exactly what he needed to become the best possible player he can become? The stuff from the fans and the media can't be avoided when the market is as large as it is, there will always be criticisms, whether warranted or not. He has also had just as many fans as he has had "haters".

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01-21-2013, 01:33 PM
  #98
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Impatience.

He was viewed no differently than Schenn (many vocal critics and supporters). It doesn't help that HFBoards has this insidious obsession with draft picks and 19 year olds, where all prospects are held up against unrealistic benchmarks like Eberle and Skinner.

edit: Why would racism even come up? I guess some people need to see something sinister in every shadow. Do people not realize that fully half the population of Toronto wasn't even born in this country?

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01-21-2013, 01:35 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Exactly. Thanks. Also, players Don Cherry likes: Jordan Staal, Spezza, Savard, Duchene....Kadri.

I guess many Leafs posters on here assume they know more about hockey than Cherry.

Another poster made a good point- if Detroit kept a prospect in the minors until 21/22 it's called good development. In Toronto, the player is called a bust.
Just to extend your comparison with Detriot - if the Red Wings drafted Kadri, would his development/progress be much different than it is now?

I doubt it - I don't think Kadri makes the Red Wings until, well, now. Same timeline as he's been on as a Leaf.

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01-21-2013, 02:04 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Just to extend your comparison with Detriot - if the Red Wings drafted Kadri, would his development/progress be much different than it is now?

I doubt it - I don't think Kadri makes the Red Wings until, well, now. Same timeline as he's been on as a Leaf.
That's precisely the case. And then when players are brought up from GR, it's typically to play on the 3rd and 4th lines, until they are familiar enough with the defensive requirements necessary to play Red Wings hockey.

Successful clubs impose stages of development as the norm, precisely because that is the norm for an NHL professional. Rare is the player who is instantly prolific.

Hopefully Kadri's combination of AHL experience, renewed dedication to his fitness and nutrition equates to permanent position with the big club. But rightly so, it's ready when it's ready.

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