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Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 Penguins vs. Rangers

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:43 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
I watched him quite often on the Leafs and he isn't that good. I like with he provides defensively and yes, he does use his body well, but so does Dupuis. Kulemin has better hands and a better offensive instinct them Dupuis, but he doesn't produce at a higher pace than Dupuis. I'm not against acquiring Kulemin and I'm aware he played with Malkin in Russia, but I just wouldn't be willing to sacrifice assets in order to acquire a guy that isn't that great.

If we could get him for free or cheaply in the offseason, why not, but I wouldn't pay a premium at the deadline for him. I'm prefer to get Sid a legit winger. Geno has Neal, getting him Kulemin isn't necessary.
Getting Sid a winger is a separate issue.

BUT, getting Geno and Neal a guy like Kulemin will be necessary for the playoffs depending upon how the Tangradi experiment pans out.

And, I really don't give a **** about Dupuis. I give a **** about the Malkin-Neal combo. I give a **** about giving them the perfect complement on a cap friendly deal. And, Kulemin IS the perfect complement.

I'll spare myself the aggravation of hearing what you think Iginla is worth if he ever hit the trade market.

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01-20-2013, 11:46 PM
  #252
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Getting Sid a winger is a separate issue.

BUT, getting Geno and Neal a guy like Kulemin will be necessary for the playoffs depending upon how the Tangradi experiment pans out.

And, I really don't give a **** about Dupuis. I give a **** about the Malkin-Neal combo. I give a **** about giving them the perfect complement on a cap friendly deal. And, Kulemin IS the perfect complement.

I'll spare myself the aggravation of hearing what you think Iginla is worth if he ever hit the trade market.
Iginla, now that's a guy I would gladly sacrifice assets to get... even as a rental. And I think he'd be worth a big big return. The Flames aren't too keen on trading him and if they decide to, there will be a bidding war.

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01-20-2013, 11:46 PM
  #253
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Why would we trade Vokoun? That makes absolutely no sense. We got a decent back up to give MAF some slack. Games like tonight are why we got Vokoun. Sure, he probably won't play in the playoffs, but I wouldn't sacrifice the security blanket he provides for a guy like Kulemin.
Yes I realize that it doesn't make much sense, but if we're not expecting him to play in the playoff's then his usefulness won't amount to much after the trade deadline, provided of course Fluery doesn't give the team any reason to be concerned. But then again if he has another series like last year then we'd better be considering other goaltending options and Vokoun is not a long term solution.

Of course if we could get Kulemin for prospects I'd prefer to go that route, but I get the feeling that won't cut it for the Leafs especially if he has a bounce back season. Caught a few Metallurg Magnitogorsk games during the lockout and the chemistry he had with Malkin towards the end there was pretty sick.

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01-20-2013, 11:47 PM
  #254
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Yes I realize that it doesn't make much sense, but if we're not expecting him to play in the playoff's then his usefulness won't amount to much after the trade deadline, provided of course Fluery doesn't give the team any reason to be concerned. But then again if he has another series like last year then we'd better be considering other goaltending options and Vokoun is not a long term solution.

Of course if we could get Kulemin for prospects I'd prefer to go that route, but I get the feeling that won't cut it for the Leafs especially if he has a bounce back season. Caught a few Metallurg Magnitogorsk games during the lockout and the chemistry he had with Malkin towards the end there was pretty sick.
And as someone else here noted, the chemistry he has with Neal is a lot like the chemistry he had with Mozyakin.

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01-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #255
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I've got news for you then. He DOES create space, he DOES forecheck well and he does go to the net more than sometimes. So far he has looked better than Glass. Where the disconnect is, is you think he hasn't done anything "noteworthy." I think your expectations with how you judge prospects is out of wack. For Tangradi right now, points dont matter. They will come once his linemates trust him to use him more, which isn't happening now. They will also come if he keeps playing the way he played tonight.

Don't even make me search for the post I made this summer detailing how mismanaged Tangradi was last season.
If he was on another team you're telling me he would stand out to you in any way shape or form if you watched him play the way he played these last two games? Come on. I'm trying to figure out how he was better tonight. He came down the offensive boards and got outmuscled (or straight up knocked down) multiple times again. He does not win 50/50 battles. He has trouble taking the puck off the boards in his own zone. He doesn't create anything in any zone on his own. I don't know what you're seeing honestly, but that's just me. As far as points mattering or not, they will before the year's out. By then TK will be on the line anyway no matter what anyone thinks of it.

His linemates don't trust him because they've seen him play enough to this point to know they probably won't get the puck back if they give it to him. There are reasons for this. It's the same reason the two skilled guys pass amongst each other in a beer league and ignore their linemate who just started playing last year.

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01-20-2013, 11:51 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EM71 View Post
Caught a few Metallurg Magnitogorsk games during the lockout and the chemistry he had with Malkin towards the end there was pretty sick.
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And as someone else here noted, the chemistry he has with Neal is a lot like the chemistry he had with Mozyakin.
Maybe Malkin just gets around.

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01-20-2013, 11:52 PM
  #257
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Getting Sid a winger is a separate issue.

BUT, getting Geno and Neal a guy like Kulemin will be necessary for the playoffs depending upon how the Tangradi experiment pans out.

And, I really don't give a **** about Dupuis. I give a **** about the Malkin-Neal combo. I give a **** about giving them the perfect complement on a cap friendly deal. And, Kulemin IS the perfect complement.

I'll spare myself the aggravation of hearing what you think Iginla is worth if he ever hit the trade market.
Yeah Kulemin brings that energy like a role player but has skill too. I actually wouldn't mind seeing Cooke fill in that roll for now with Tangradi getting some shifts too. I'm not the biggest Tangradi fan but if he goes to the net with Malkin and Neal shooting a lot he should be able to put in some garbage.

Another thing thats never talked about is finding Letangs partner. Its right up there with Sids winger IMO.

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01-20-2013, 11:53 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
If he was on another team you're telling me he would stand out to you in any way shape or form if you watched him play the way he played these last two games? Come on. I'm trying to figure out how he was better tonight. He came down the offensive boards and got outmuscled (or straight up knocked down) multiple times again. He does not win 50/50 battles. He has trouble taking the puck off the boards in his own zone. He doesn't create anything in any zone on his own. I don't know what you're seeing honestly, but that's just me. As far as points mattering or not, they will before the year's out. By then TK will be on the line anyway no matter what anyone thinks of it.

His linemates don't trust him because they've seen him play enough to this point to know they probably won't get the puck back if they give it to him. There are reasons for this. It's the same reason the two skilled guys pass amongst each other in a beer league and ignore their linemate who just started playing last year.
Harsh. Funny, but harsh.

Oh, and if TK is Bylsma's answer for 'if Tangradi doesn't pan out', then something tells me Geno and Neal will be longing for those beer league days after a shift or two.

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01-20-2013, 11:55 PM
  #259
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Yeah Kulemin brings that energy like a role player but has skill too. I actually wouldn't mind seeing Cooke fill in that roll for now with Tangradi getting some shifts too. I'm not the biggest Tangradi fan but if he goes to the net with Malkin and Neal shooting a lot he should be able to put in some garbage.

Another thing thats never talked about is finding Letangs partner. Its right up there with Sids winger IMO.
Letang's partner definitely is a need. But, given what's out there and given what the Pens will have available over the next few years, I think the better investment this year is to make sure that both Sid and Geno have two good (one second wheel, one third wheel) wingers each. That will make far more impact than any likely available defenseman.

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01-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #260
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+ Letang: Dude was flying, and all over the ice tonight. He is playing with confidence now, and if he continues to play with confidence, I think he'll end up being a Norris finalist. His own mind is all that's keeping him from being an elite, cream-of-the-crop D-man in this league.

+ Geno: He's in mid-season form. Wonderful to watch this dude's skating, passing, and play making abilities. I'm glad he played in the KHL, it got him into shape and got his timing down.

+ Neal: He's got one of the best shots I've ever seen. His quick release, the power behind it, and the accuracy are just awesome. The chemistry between Geno and Neal is something else, too. Best duo in the NHL.

+ Sutter: Making it a Hell of a lot easier for us to lose Staal. He might not have the offensive capabilities Staal began to show at the end of his time here, but he's just as good as Staal's ever been defensively, and he's a monster in the faceoff circle.

+ Vitale: Why would we ever scratch this guy again? He's a prototypical 4th line guy. Hits everything that moves, skates his ass off, is a good faceoff guy, and can chip in offensively from time to time as well. Jeffrey might be more flashy from time to time, but Vitale is what this team needs.

+ Vokoun: Trouble with rebounds, but solid game for a backup. I haven't had this much confidence in a backup in years.

+ Power play: Lots of movement, great passing and creativity. Still not exactly sold on Neal on the point, but it's working so far.

- Sid: He looks off. It's probably just rust, but he looks like he's doing way too much, and trying to force things. He'll be fine, just hasn't looked "Sid good" so far.

- Despres: Looked pretty terrible in his time up thus far. Let's just hope it's just growing pains. Someone said he was trying to be too much like Letang, and I think that's a fair assessment. He needs to go back to simple hockey.

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01-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #261
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At this point I don't think management considers Tangradi a long-term solution and I think he's on the 1st line right now because he fills a short-term role on that line and because it will increase his value around the league.

That *might* apply to Despres too, but I'm not sure.

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01-21-2013, 12:00 AM
  #262
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At this point I don't think management considers Tangradi a long-term solution and I think he's on the 1st line right now because he fills a short-term role on that line and because it will increase his value around the league.

That *might* apply to Despres too, but I'm not sure.
I think management and coaches doubt that Tangradi is a long term solution. I think they have far more hope for Despres. But, I credit them for wanting to find out now, at the most appropriate time and when a genuine chance can be given to both, whether these guys can, in their opinion, make an impact in April.

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01-21-2013, 12:02 AM
  #263
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Bennett would probably look damn good alongside Crosby right about now.

Philly isn't afraid to play their rookies and recent draft picks, why can't we? Couterier last year, Laughton this year. Laughton has easily been one of Philly's best players over the first two games.

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01-21-2013, 12:03 AM
  #264
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At this point I don't think management considers Tangradi a long-term solution and I think he's on the 1st line right now because he fills a short-term role on that line and because it will increase his value around the league.

That *might* apply to Despres too, but I'm not sure.
I don't think it does with Despres. At least I hope not because I definitely think he could be very valuable as a long-term piece of our top 6.

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01-21-2013, 12:12 AM
  #265
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Before we start throwing Dupuis and Kunitz under the bus, let's realize that Sid's playing pretty poorly himself. He's rusty because he hasn't played a meaningful game of hockey in 9 months.

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01-21-2013, 12:14 AM
  #266
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Bennett would probably look damn good alongside Crosby right about now.

Philly isn't afraid to play their rookies and recent draft picks, why can't we? Couterier last year, Laughton this year. Laughton has easily been one of Philly's best players over the first two games.
I honestly don't think he would. Bennett's had a good 1/3rd start to his season, but he still has some things he needs to work on and playing with one of the top players in the game, and thus against the top defensive pairings of the opposition, that's a lot for anyone to handle.

Philly has thus far played Couturier, Schenn and Laughton in defensive, shut-down type roles because they're mature players that can contribute in that aspect. It remains to be seen, however, if that will end up retarding their development offensively.

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01-21-2013, 12:16 AM
  #267
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Bennett would probably look damn good alongside Crosby right about now.

Philly isn't afraid to play their rookies and recent draft picks, why can't we? Couterier last year, Laughton this year. Laughton has easily been one of Philly's best players over the first two games.
Philly is bringing their youngsters along smartly though. They don't throw them on the first two lines. They play limited minutes in specific roles and they increase their roles as they progress. They did that with Couturier and that's what they seem to want to be doing with Laughton.

Maybe we could bring Bennett up, play him with Sid and Kunitz 5 on 5 and give him second unit time. He is an offensive player, he should have an offensive role.

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01-21-2013, 12:19 AM
  #268
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I've been very clear that I'll be patient with Tangradi, but for every one shift he supported properly, there were three or four where he was running into Geno or Neal. I mean, Despres had a rough night, but he did some really, really good things too, the types of things that make you say 'o'k, I see the point here'. I didn't really see that with Tangradi tonight. Doesn't mean I won't see it against Toronto, but I didn't see it tonight.

Oh, as far as Sid and Kunitz go, Sid needs two third wheels even less than Geno needs a second wheel and a fourth wheel.
It's easy to watch him play and see he is doing exactly what he is being told to do. First on the forecheck, tie your man up until help gets there... Head to the net and take the strong side defender with you off the rush... Stay high on the forecheck when we have possession above the circles; get to the net when we have possession below the circles.

He is robotic and doing things by DB book. The last time he tried to be himself and hold the puck up high and create, he got a seat on the bench. I remember it quite clearly from last season. We also know a more talented kid like BB is being told N-S, don't slow the play down. Tangradi isn't stupid, he is actually a guy with a ton of hockey sense and he knows he has to do exactly as he is told to keep getting a regular shift.

When he is playing his natural game he makes himself an outlet, he trails the puck carrier or goes wide to the post and positions himself well to take passes. He isn't doing that and won't for quite some time until he earns DB trust and gets the green light to play his game.

As long as he doesn't do anything stupid and hurt the team, that is all I expect from him for now until he learns to play at this level. When he becomes comfortable and feels his job is safe, we will start to see his talent.

Until then expect to see robot Tangradi and all of the posts ragging on him. It is going to take a lot of time. He is not a superstar talent, but people think he should be (instant gratification generation).

He will be on the third and fourth line by the end of the month anyway and it will be better for him. Malkin isn't a good fit for a green rookie. He just isn't.


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01-21-2013, 12:24 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's easy to watch him play and see he is doing exactly what he is being told to do. First on the forecheck, tie your man up until help gets there... Head to the net and take the strong side defender with you off the rush... Stay high on the forecheck when we have possession above the circles; get to the net when we have possession below the circles.

He is robotic and doing things by DB book. The last time he tried to be himself and hold the puck up high and create, he got a seat on the bench. I remember it quite clearly from last season. We also know a more talented kid like BB is being told N-S, don't slow the play down. Tangradi isn't stupid, he is actually a guy with a ton of hockey sense and he knows he has to do exactly as he is told to keep getting a regular shift.

When he is playing his natural game he makes himself an outlet, he trails the puck carrier or goes wide to the post and positions himself well to take passes. He isn't doing that and won't for quite some time until he earns DB trust and gets the green light to play his game.

As long as he doesn't do anything stupid and hurt the team, that is all I expect from him for now until he learns to play at this level. When he becomes comfortable and feels his job is safe, we will start to see his talent.

Until then expect to see robot Tangradi and all of the posts ragging on him. It is going to a lot of time. He is not a superstar talent, but people think he should be (instant gratification generation).
I really like your imput on that matter, so I'll ask you a question: Do you think Bylsma as the right approach or should he let Tangradi be more himself? Or to be more precise: is it a better idea to make him learn some "automatics" before allowing him to use his instincts more?

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01-21-2013, 12:31 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's easy to watch him play and see he is doing exactly what he is being told to do. First on the forecheck, tie your man up until help gets there... Head to the net and take the strong side defender with you off the rush... Stay high on the forecheck when we have possession above the circles; get to the net when we have possession below the circles.

He is robotic and doing things by DB book. The last time he tried to be himself and hold the puck up high and create, he got a seat on the bench. I remember it quite clearly from last season. We also know a more talented kid like BB is being told N-S, don't slow the play down. Tangradi isn't stupid, he is actually a guy with a ton of hockey sense and he knows he has to do exactly as he is told to keep getting a regular shift.

When he is playing his natural game he makes himself an outlet, he trails the puck carrier or goes wide to the post and positions himself well to take passes. He isn't doing that and won't for quite some time until he earns DB trust and gets the green light to play his game.

As long as he doesn't do anything stupid and hurt the team, that is all I expect from him for now until he learns to play at this level. When he becomes comfortable and feels his job is safe, we will start to see his talent.

Until then expect to see robot Tangradi and all of the posts ragging on him. It is going to take a lot of time. He is not a superstar talent, but people think he should be (instant gratification generation).

He will be on the third and fourth line by the end of the month anyway and it will be better for him. Malkin isn't a good fit for a green rookie. He just isn't.
Was with you until the last sentence. If you believe everything before the last sentence, why do you believe the last sentence?

As an aside, and not directed at you: I would like to explore the meaning of the word patience while exhibiting anything but.

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01-21-2013, 12:31 AM
  #271
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Tangradi has to understand how short his leash is. He needs to run someone through the glass with that frame of his.
1000 percent correct! I absolutely hate how Tangradi pulls up and doesn't finish checks. Can we get Cookie and Glass to have a clinic with him? It's great to forecheck, but put some fear in people! I'd like to see him evolve into a better skating Hartnell, but he says away from the big "Free Candy" hits.

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01-21-2013, 12:35 AM
  #272
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I don't think i've ever seen Crosby play this bad in his career. I know he has not played in a while, but even coming back from injury he looked pretty damn good with no game expierience. I know it's only game 2, but it's a bloody short season. He's been one of our worse players in both games. Ohwell he's only human, can't always play at that level right off the bat.

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01-21-2013, 12:38 AM
  #273
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The 5 on 3 cuteness was inexplicable. And, the complete lack of movement (no moving screens) was pathetic. I'll chalk up the third period cuteness to trying to get Neal the HT.

Like many things, the new look PP is a work in progress.
Something I didn't understand : they had the whole intermission to think of what they were gonna try on the rest of that 5 on 3. And we ended up with Sid ripping up one timers and making shot passes from the point?
really?
Besides that's been a while since I've seen Sid try to force that many passes.
Oh well, no worries, only confirm that he's a slow starter, it will come eventually.

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01-21-2013, 12:41 AM
  #274
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I really like your imput on that matter, so I'll ask you a question: Do you think Bylsma as the right approach or should he let Tangradi be more himself? Or to be more precise: is it a better idea to make him learn some "automatics" before allowing him to use his instincts more?
I think Tangradi needs to be away from Malkin. Period. I hate the fit because Malkin holds the puck and doesn't give it up to players he doesn't trust. We saw it the last time they played together.

Tangradi rarely touches the puck with Malkin and it is just a bad fit. Crosby always gets the puck to Tangradi the rare times they are together. Crosby moves the puck quickly, Malkin likes to carry it.

Tangradi had his best shifts away from Malkin tonight. If he cant play with Crosby, he needs to be in the bottom six where he can relax and actually touch the puck more than ten seconds a night.

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01-21-2013, 12:48 AM
  #275
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Was with you until the last sentence. If you believe everything before the last sentence, why do you believe the last sentence?

As an aside, and not directed at you: I would like to explore the meaning of the word patience while exhibiting anything but.
I just don't think he will gel with Malkin.

If he was with Crosby I think he could stick in the top six. Crosby would get him the puck in all three zones, work the give and go with him, and bring up Tangradi's confidence. The more he has the puck, the more his game takes off. He wouldn't be a robotic mucker.

Crosby basically says, "ill get you the puck and we can work **** out together".

Malkin basically says "get the **** out of my way rookie".

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