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01-21-2013, 08:22 AM
  #326
Mr Jiggyfly
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Jiggy, I want to cover the three highlighted items in your post, because I actually agree with all of it:

1. I agree completely with your assessment that Tangradi is doing it all by the Bylsma book. I really, really wish he'd just play his game and make the mistakes that inevitably happen with any young player (see Despres, where you're getting the bad, but you're also getting a lot of solid glimpses as to why you're going to be really happy in April that he's getting a chance now). He's really in a catch 22. He needs to earn Bylsma's trust to feel comfortable enough to play his game, but he needs to show you on the ice what's only going to come from playing his game to earn Bylsma's trust. When I've been talking about 'hoping' it works out, I think that what I'm really saying is that I hope he magically finds a way out of that dilemma.

2. I'm commenting here in a +/- for ONE GAME. I think most people, even those more critical of Tangradi last night, still take the perspective that he's got to get a real, genuine, prolonged opportunity here.

3. I also agree that Malkin is NOT a good choice for breaking in a green rookie, at least not this green rookie who has to date been so mis-handled by the coaching staff. I mean, if Tangradi weren't afraid to play his game, then I think it COULD be a different story. But, where Tangradi is approaching each shift as if 'playing by the Bylsma book' is all that matters, then it's a horrid match with Malkin and Neal, because those two improvise a ton. As you've often said-- and I agree-- Sid is a better fit, because his game, improvisations notwithstanding, is played far more consistently by the Bylsma book in the offensive zone.
The reality is quite clear for Tangradi... His chances of playing with Sid are nil, let's get that off the table. So if he wants to stick, he has to play this big man game DB and Shero want him to play. Then if he can adapt to that and prove over time he can be reliable with the puck, he will be given more leeway to freelance and create. That is the reality and it isn't going to change.

I shake my head every time I read comments about how he needs to be more creative (ya if he wants a seat on the bench). Or how he needs to put players through the glass every shift... He isn't Vitale. He didn't cut his teeth that way. Vitale has played this way his whole life, as he said. Tangradi IS a skill player being moulded into a mean, physically imposing PF. It is a long process that is just starting. I've said that before... The process won't start UNTIL he gets regular NHL minutes.

It takes time to learn how to line up NHL players... How to leverage yourself on the boards... How to keep your footing in front of the net and keep your stick free... That **** is HARD. Now add the pressure of playing with one of the best players in the world (who ignores you) and being afraid of being benched.

People don't get how hard it is to go out there and get the hell beat out of you in front of the net shift after shift. It blows, trust me. He is literally being used as a battering ram and a punching bag. People need to watch how much abuse he is actually taking on that second line. If the Pens can get him to play like the PF they hope, it will pay off huge, especially in the playoffs. However, he isn't a PF right now. He is a skilled kid being told to do a specific job, which basically means he is going to get the hell beat out of him every game.

Instead of people being patient and giving this kid credit for changing his game and absorbing the physical punishment he has to endure, he gets ragged on and put down. I'd love to see these people take one of his shifts to see how hard it is. I'm sure that would shut them up real quick.

The team is winning and doing well. Tangradi should not even be such a major focus. Jesus.

Let the kid learn and grow without all of the nasty remarks. It's so lame bro.

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01-21-2013, 08:22 AM
  #327
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And if Tangradi doesn't do anything with Sid we can create a 5th line and see how he does there.

In all honestly I'm kidding, but you've got to admit this is kind of insane. All some of us want him to do is show something regardless of what line he plays on and what DB tells him. If he's worth anything that shouldn't be a tall order. Just make SOMEthing happen and no, a pedestrian play like tying up a Dman on the boards and another forward grabbing the puck doesn't count.
He has played two games in this role. Why shouldn't the little things be counted as accomplishments?? The kid improved from game one to game two.

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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
If in 5-7 games we don't see any production out of Tangradi with the best one-two punch in hockey, then he needs to be traded. Package him in something for Sid. I really don't see Tangradi working in our Top 6. He does have the wheels for a big man, but he just doesn't do anything Tanner Glass doesn't, or Craig Adams doesn't, or Dustin Jeffrey doesn't. His frame sets him apart ... and everyone on here talks about it. He doesn't use it effectively. I can't see DB allowing him to fail with Geno-Neal and then giving him another 5-7 games with Sid. Hate it for him, but we need two lines with a one-two punch.
5 to 7 games and then trade him? Are we so spoiled by superstars that we have no clue how normal players develop?

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01-21-2013, 08:24 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
Yep. Sure do. Tangradi is a very like-able guy (love following him on Twitter). I just hope he starts playing with a chip on his shoulder.

Side Note - How about this Paul Martin guy? 3 apples in 2 games. Is it just me or does his shot look like an actual weapon this season?
Nah, it's you. When he winds up to shoot, he presses the fast forward button . . .

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01-21-2013, 08:25 AM
  #329
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Yep. Sure do. Tangradi is a very like-able guy (love following him on Twitter). I just hope he starts playing with a chip on his shoulder.

Side Note - How about this Paul Martin guy? 3 apples in 2 games. Is it just me or does his shot look like an actual weapon this season?
His mustache has added at least 10 man points to his game

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01-21-2013, 08:27 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The reality is quite clear for Tangradi... His chances of playing with Sid are nil, let's get that off the table. So if he wants to stick, he has to play this big man game DB and Shero want him to play. Then if he can adapt to that and prove over time he can be reliable with the puck, he will be given more leeway to freelance and create. That is the reality and it isn't going to change.

I shake my head every time I read comments about how he needs to be more creative (ya if he wants a seat on the bench). Or how he needs to put players through the glass every shift... He isn't Vitale. He didn't cut his teeth that way. Vitale has played this way his whole life, as he said. Tangradi IS a skill player being moulded into a mean, physically imposing PF. It is a long process that is just starting. I've said that before... The process won't start UNTIL he gets regular NHL minutes.

It takes time to learn how to line up NHL players... How to leverage yourself on the boards... How to keep your footing in front of the net and keep your stick free... That **** is HARD. Now add the pressure of playing with one of the best players in the world and being afraid of being benched.

People don't get how hard it is to go out there and get the hell beat out of you in front of the net shift after shift. It blows, trust me. He is literally being used as a battering ram and a punching bag. People need to watch how much abuse he is actually taking on that second line. If the Pens can get him to play like the PF they hope, it will pay off huge, especially in the playoffs. However, he isn't a PF right now. He is a skilled kid being told to do a specific job, which basically means he is going to get the hell beat out of him every game.

Instead of people being patient and giving this kid credit for changing his game and absorbing the physical punishment he has to endure, he get ragged on and put down. I'd love to see these people take one of his shifts to see how hard it is. I'm sure that would shut them up real quick.

The team is winning and doing well. Tangradi should not even be such a major focus. Jesus.

Let the kid learn and grow without all of the nasty remarks. It's so lame bro.
Hasn't he had 3 years to work on this? I'm down for about 5-7 more games. As long as he shows improvement, I say let him keep working. However ... if Tangradi was a true "skill" player, then I think we would at least see a glimpse of this (like with Despres' bank pass to Vitale yesterday). I see a few small things, but nothing that has me excited about the next 5-7 games (and I'm cheering for him).

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01-21-2013, 08:28 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The reality is quite clear for Tangradi... His chances of playing with Sid are nil, let's get that off the table. So if he wants to stick, he has to play this big man game DB and Shero want him to play. Then if he can adapt to that and prove over time he can be reliable with the puck, he will be given more leeway to freelance and create. That is the reality and it isn't going to change.

I shake my head every time I read comments about how he needs to be more creative (ya if he wants a seat on the bench). Or how he needs to put players through the glass every shift... He isn't Vitale. He didn't cut his teeth that way. Vitale has played this way his whole life, as he said. Tangradi IS a skill player being moulded into a mean, physically imposing PF. It is a long process that is just starting. I've said that before... The process won't start UNTIL he gets regular NHL minutes.

It takes time to learn how to line up NHL players... How to leverage yourself on the boards... How to keep your footing in front of the net and keep your stick free... That **** is HARD. Now add the pressure of playing with one of the best players in the world (who ignores you) and being afraid of being benched.

People don't get how hard it is to go out there and get the hell beat out of you in front of the net shift after shift. It blows, trust me. He is literally being used as a battering ram and a punching bag. People need to watch how much abuse he is actually taking on that second line. If the Pens can get him to play like the PF they hope, it will pay off huge, especially in the playoffs. However, he isn't a PF right now. He is a skilled kid being told to do a specific job, which basically means he is going to get the hell beat out of him every game.

Instead of people being patient and giving this kid credit for changing his game and absorbing the physical punishment he has to endure, he gets ragged on and put down. I'd love to see these people take one of his shifts to see how hard it is. I'm sure that would shut them up real quick.

The team is winning and doing well. Tangradi should not even be such a major focus. Jesus.

Let the kid learn and grow without all of the nasty remarks. It's so lame bro.
Preach on preacher man

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01-21-2013, 08:29 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The reality is quite clear for Tangradi... His chances of playing with Sid are nil, let's get that off the table. So if he wants to stick, he has to play this big man game DB and Shero want him to play. Then if he can adapt to that and prove over time he can be reliable with the puck, he will be given more leeway to freelance and create. That is the reality and it isn't going to change.

I shake my head every time I read comments about how he needs to be more creative (ya if he wants a seat on the bench). Or how he needs to put players through the glass every shift... He isn't Vitale. He didn't cut his teeth that way. Vitale has played this way his whole life, as he said. Tangradi IS a skill player being moulded into a mean, physically imposing PF. It is a long process that is just starting. I've said that before... The process won't start UNTIL he gets regular NHL minutes.

It takes time to learn how to line up NHL players... How to leverage yourself on the boards... How to keep your footing in front of the net and keep your stick free... That **** is HARD. Now add the pressure of playing with one of the best players in the world and being afraid of being benched.

People don't get how hard it is to go out there and get the hell beat out of you in front of the net shift after shift. It blows, trust me. He is literally being used as a battering ram and a punching bag. People need to watch how much abuse he is actually taking on that second line. If the Pens can get him to play like the PF they hope, it will pay off huge, especially in the playoffs. However, he isn't a PF right now. He is a skilled kid being told to do a specific job, which basically means he is going to get the hell beat out of him every game.

Instead of people being patient and giving this kid credit for changing his game and absorbing the physical punishment he has to endure, he get ragged on and put down. I'd love to see these people take one of his shifts to see how hard it is. I'm sure that would shut them up real quick.

The team is winning and doing well. Tangradi should not even be such a major focus. Jesus.

Let the kid learn and grow without all of the nasty remarks. It's so lame bro.
Did I suggest once that the kid hasn't been completely ****** by the organization in terms of his handling, that he shouldn't have gotten his shot after the camp the Pens won the cup (when he killed it in preseason with Sid and Kunitz and when Geno could've used Guerin at RW with Talbot out), that he's not in a near impossible situation right now, or that he doesn't deserve a minimum of 20 games as a basis for evaluation this time around?

And, no offense, but it's not unreasonable to ask you to remember that this is a +/- thread for ONE GAME. It's possible for a lot of us here to make a critical comment (even a crack) without losing sight of or wavering on the belief that there's got to be a genuine chance this time.

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01-21-2013, 08:30 AM
  #333
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He has played two games in this role. Why shouldn't the little things be counted as accomplishments?? The kid improved from game one to game two.


5 to 7 games and then trade him? Are we so spoiled by superstars that we have no clue how normal players develop?
How are we going to upgrade Sid? I am fine with giving up one D prospect, but what goes with that? Tangradi has value to other teams ... after 5-7 games of nothing (or 10-15 with some small improvements), then what do we do? Craig Adams on our 4th line has given us better production over the past two seasons.

I'm not spoiled by our superstars. I'm frustrated with our organization's lack of developing skill forwards.

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01-21-2013, 08:32 AM
  #334
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Nah, it's you. When he winds up to shoot, he presses the fast forward button . . .
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His mustache has added at least 10 man points to his game
I guess he was serious about improving over the past two seasons. #veterantricks

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01-21-2013, 08:32 AM
  #335
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Hasn't he had 3 years to work on this? I'm down for about 5-7 more games. As long as he shows improvement, I say let him keep working. However ... if Tangradi was a true "skill" player, then I think we would at least see a glimpse of this (like with Despres' bank pass to Vitale yesterday). I see a few small things, but nothing that has me excited about the next 5-7 games (and I'm cheering for him).
He has not. the role he is being asked to play simply didn't exist in wbs. He had to be the Guy down there. There is just no learning how to play an NHL power forward position without doing it against NHL competition.

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01-21-2013, 08:34 AM
  #336
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Hasn't he had 3 years to work on this? I'm down for about 5-7 more games. As long as he shows improvement, I say let him keep working. However ... if Tangradi was a true "skill" player, then I think we would at least see a glimpse of this (like with Despres' bank pass to Vitale yesterday). I see a few small things, but nothing that has me excited about the next 5-7 games (and I'm cheering for him).
No, they've pretty much beaten the natural instinct to play with some skill and creativity out of him. Three years ago, the kid reminded me of a young Malone . . . all the tools to play like a physical force out there but with an under-appreciated level of skill and creativity. He's afraid to show any glimpses of that now, because you may get what you're getting with Despres (flashes of brilliance and young player mistakes) and, in his experience, making a mistake means a one way ticket to the press box.

I'd be inclined to go more than 5-7 games. I figured 20 games in the beginning. At 10 games, evaluate. Unless he's totally played himself out of it (i.e., plays noticeably worse than he did this past weekend), then give him another 10 games. BUT, at 20 games, you've got to see some real progress IMO.

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01-21-2013, 08:35 AM
  #337
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He has not. the role he is being asked to play simply didn't exist in wbs. He had to be the Guy down there. There is just no learning how to play an NHL power forward position without doing it against NHL competition.
Like I said earlier, I'm fine with 5-7 more if there is no improvement. I'll go up to game 20 if we see some more improvement. Hell ... I'll go the whole 48 if he just gives us some production. I just want some instances like Despres last night. Show us that it is there big boy! All of us on here want to root for him.

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01-21-2013, 08:35 AM
  #338
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I am actually surprised that Tangradi still has his defenders here. Guy has done basically nothing for the big club so far this season and last season. He was awful in AHL as well this year. He was playing with Neal and Geno these 2 games and I canīt even remember the one single moment when he did something positive with the puck. Heīs there only for some shadowing, Malkin and Neal donīt even want to give him the puck and itīs understandable.

Heīs close to being useless. Kunitz would be much better there. We really need another Top6 winger with some talent for Crosby and then we can give Kunitz back to Neal & Geno.

Or try Bennett in Top6. Tangradi is not the solution and if we go to the playoffs with him in our Top6, Iīll be so furious. Just no!

Other than Tangadi and maybe that Crosby line, Iīm delighted with the way we are playing. Defense is very solid and that bottom6 is just awesome.

Niskanen deserves more praise. Yeah, he got some, but I think heīs excellent for us. Man, that Goligoskiīs trade looks unreal for us. Neal is crazy and I absolutely love Nisky. Amazing stuff.

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01-21-2013, 08:36 AM
  #339
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Hasn't he had 3 years to work on this? I'm down for about 5-7 more games. As long as he shows improvement, I say let him keep working. However ... if Tangradi was a true "skill" player, then I think we would at least see a glimpse of this (like with Despres' bank pass to Vitale yesterday). I see a few small things, but nothing that has me excited about the next 5-7 games (and I'm cheering for him).
He has played three years in the NHL? When?

5-7 more games? Is that a joke? It is going to take months, going into years before he is the player people want to see. This is the NHL.

The A is not the NHL. Why do people have trouble grasping that?

Tangradi has zero problems muscling guys in the A and playing his game.

Once again, did you see how poorly B Schenn and Kreider looked? Anyone want to argue they are better prospects than Tangradi?

Aside from the Pens series, Schenn has been a hot mess most of last season. The two games this season, he has struggled.

Tangradi isn't turning into a mean PF in 5-7 games. I mean... Honestly, I can't believe people think this way.

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01-21-2013, 08:36 AM
  #340
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How are we going to upgrade Sid? I am fine with giving up one D prospect, but what goes with that? Tangradi has value to other teams ... after 5-7 games of nothing (or 10-15 with some small improvements), then what do we do? Craig Adams on our 4th line has given us better production over the past two seasons.

I'm not spoiled by our superstars. I'm frustrated with our organization's lack of developing skill forwards.
Ray Shero has more cap space and organizational assets than he did when he got Hossa and Gill in 2008. I'm not worried about Sid being taken care of. If Shero is willing to make a short term deal, he's got the pieces.

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01-21-2013, 08:36 AM
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Crosby might be the only guy in the league who goes two games without a goal and is deemed to be "struggling to score".

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01-21-2013, 08:36 AM
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How are we going to upgrade Sid? I am fine with giving up one D prospect, but what goes with that? Tangradi has value to other teams ... after 5-7 games of nothing (or 10-15 with some small improvements), then what do we do? Craig Adams on our 4th line has given us better production over the past two seasons.

I'm not spoiled by our superstars. I'm frustrated with our organization's lack of developing skill forwards.
So when they finally have a kid here who they want to develop you suggest trading him if he doesnpt immediately blossom into a productive NHL player

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01-21-2013, 08:37 AM
  #343
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No, they've pretty much beaten the natural instinct to play with some skill and creativity out of him. Three years ago, the kid reminded me of a young Malone . . . all the tools to play like a physical force out there but with an under-appreciated level of skill and creativity. He's afraid to show any glimpses of that now, because you may get what you're getting with Despres (flashes of brilliance and young player mistakes) and, in his experience, making a mistake means a one way ticket to the press box.

I'd be inclined to go more than 5-7 games. I figured 20 games in the beginning. At 10 games, evaluate. Unless he's totally played himself out of it (i.e., plays noticeably worse than he did this past weekend), then give him another 10 games. BUT, at 20 games, you've got to see some real progress IMO.
It really does suck that he has to look over his shoulder, but I wish that would drive him. I hated seeing the quotes from DB about Jeffrey.

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01-21-2013, 08:37 AM
  #344
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He has played three years in the NHL? When?

5-7 more games? Is that a joke? It is going to take months, going into years before he is the player people want to see. This is the NHL.

The A is not the NHL. Why do people have trouble grasping that?

Tangradi has zero problems muscling guys in the A and playing his game.

Once again, did you see how poorly B Schenn and Kreider looked? Anyone want to argue they are better prospects than Tangradi?

Aside from the Pens series, Schenn has been a hot mess most of last season. The two games this season, he has struggled.

Tangradi isn't turning into a mean PF in 5-7 games. I mean... Honestly, I can't believe people think this way.
Should we see some real progress at 20 games? That's my standard. Is that also unreasonable?

Frankly, I think it's moot. No way Bylsma gives him that long.

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01-21-2013, 08:39 AM
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Crosby might be the only guy in the league who goes two games without a goal and is deemed to be "struggling to score".
Yeah.

I think it's three games for Geno.

****, Geno seems like he's struggling to shoot.

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01-21-2013, 08:41 AM
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Should we see some real progress at 20 games? That's my standard. Is that also unreasonable?

Frankly, I think it's moot. No way Bylsma gives him that long.
I saw progress this weekend already

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01-21-2013, 08:41 AM
  #347
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So when they finally have a kid here who they want to develop you suggest trading him if he doesnpt immediately blossom into a productive NHL player
Tangradi has to show signs of improvement ... as I said earlier. Up to game #20 if he is improving and starts producing on the line. I think after 20 games we'll know if there is promise with his game and improvements, or that we need to explore other options. We do know that Tangradi doesn't provide anything that we don't already have on our 4th line.

I suggest trading if they don't produce and other teams see his as value. No reason to add to the resume that he doesn't produce at the NHL level.

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01-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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What I'd love to see is some analysis from somebody who has regularly seen ET play in the AHL. Because, I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that many of the folks pontificating on this actually have. No offense to anyone.

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01-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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Tangradi has to show signs of improvement ... as I said earlier. Up to game #20 if he is improving and starts producing on the line. I think after 20 games we'll know if there is promise with his game and improvements, or that we need to explore other options. We do know that Tangradi doesn't provide anything that we don't already have on our 4th line.

I suggest trading if they don't produce and other teams see his as value. No reason to add to the resume that he doesn't produce at the NHL level.
He has shown signs of improvement already so I guess that's good

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01-21-2013, 08:47 AM
  #350
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Did I suggest once that the kid hasn't been completely ****** by the organization in terms of his handling, that he shouldn't have gotten his shot after the camp the Pens won the cup (when he killed it in preseason with Sid and Kunitz and when Geno could've used Guerin at RW with Talbot out), that he's not in a near impossible situation right now, or that he doesn't deserve a minimum of 20 games as a basis for evaluation this time around?

And, no offense, but it's not unreasonable to ask you to remember that this is a +/- thread for ONE GAME. It's possible for a lot of us here to make a critical comment (even a crack) without losing sight of or wavering on the belief that there's got to be a genuine chance this time.
People can say what they like, it's a free board to voice your opinion. But this is more than one game and has been going on forever.

I came into this thread expecting to read about Vitale, Sutter's unreal defensive prowess, Martin being a rock, Neal getting off to a hot start, etc. Then I find page after page ripping on Tangradi. I mean WTF?

The team is 2-0 and people just want their pound of flesh out of this kid.

Our fanbase has been spoiled rotten and have no patience and zero understanding of how long normal prospects take to develop. I have been watching rookies develop every year on other teams for years now and Tangradi's curve is the norm. People need to accept that.

The cry here has been for DB to play rookies, then when he does and they aren't stars after two games, they need sent to the A/traded.

Rookies make mistakes and need time to learn the game. Not everyone is Crosby, Staal, Malkin.

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