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Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 Penguins vs. Rangers

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:21 AM
  #376
wtbipyo
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
Tangradi is in no way a better prospect than either of those guys. I think that was Jiggy's point.

Honestly. I'm not sure what people expected. I think he's played well enough these first two games considering the type of player he naturally is compared to what he's being asked to do. It's also worth mentioning that being on a line like that one isn't always a blessing. Especially for a young guy trying to polish his game.

My only complaint is that his board work and puck retrieval seem very substandard for a big, strong guy, at times. He even seems a little adverse to contact. He's losing too many one on one battles in the tough spots of the ice. For now, I'm not so worried about the lack of offense, though. Overall he's helping to open up the ice just a little bit for the other two guys on that line... and that's a very good thing.
Completely agree. I don't expect offensive creativity or "superplay"s (haha!), but he has to do hockey things well. He has to win some battles on the wall to keep the puck in the zone for Geno-Neal.

Side Note - Does Neal look more comfortable with the puck this year? I see him making some Geno-esque passes with pressure this season. Tangradi being around these two can only be positive ... IF DB allows it ...

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01-21-2013, 09:24 AM
  #377
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You guys are ****ing insane

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01-21-2013, 09:25 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I hope that I saw it wrong.

And, that second goal was about three guys being fixated on Geno, I think.
Nah, ET hustled behind the net and 2 Rangers followed. But that's really a breakdown on defense. He didn't even have the puck, Geno did.

Edit: just sawcthe picture breakdown on the previous page. Yup.


Last edited by JQR: 01-21-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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01-21-2013, 09:29 AM
  #379
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You guys are ****ing insane


Next Topics -

#1) What in the world do we do with Dustin Jeffrey? Joey V is irreplaceable as our 4th line center. Our 3rd/4th lines are perfect presently.

#2) Cooke with Sid? Switch Duper and Cookie a few shifts on Wednesday??? Sid and Cooke had some great chemistry last year when Sid first came back.

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01-21-2013, 09:30 AM
  #380
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Tangradi, to me, seems invisible. Is that a good or bad thing? Both, probably. I'm going to give him some time before giving up on him, though.

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01-21-2013, 09:30 AM
  #381
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I'm a little bit on both sides in the endless Tangradi debate. From the eye test he's been pretty mediocre in my eyes. Doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time, is frequently a step or two behind the play, and has been pretty disappointing in terms of his ability to create any kind of offense. He just hasn't shown much at all that makes me think he's going to amount to anything over his 40 something odd games in the NHL.

With that said, he doesn't appear to be playing with any confidence and there is just something off about how he's playing. I can definitely buy into Jiggy's theory that he's trying too hard to mold his game into what the coaching staff wants and that's hampering his game right now.

Given the lack of options at the moment, I'd stick with him and see if he can figure things out. But I'm also not giving him the season to audition. I don't care about production right now, he just needs to start showing that he belongs at this level. If not, the experiment needs to come to a close and a legitimate top 9 guy brought in at the deadline.

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01-21-2013, 09:31 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
We've got ourselves a few strong Tangradi defenders in here but most posters seem to be reasonable about this topic. Give the dude more time and address the top 6 if needed when the time comes.

ET just needs to make a play or two once in a while and look like he's capable of contributing offense and not just keeping up with the play and doing grunt work. And if DB has really told him that if he handles the puck for another second in the offensive zone to make a play then he's going in the press box, well, I just don't think that's the case.

If a juicy rebound bounces to him in the slot right now, is anyone confident that Tangradi would score? Again, give him plenty of time but it's on him to show something as well.
That's pretty much how I see it too.

Good post.

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01-21-2013, 09:34 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
We've got ourselves a few strong Tangradi defenders in here but most posters seem to be reasonable about this topic. Give the dude more time and address the top 6 if needed when the time comes.

ET just needs to make a play or two once in a while and look like he's capable of contributing offense and not just keeping up with the play and doing grunt work. And if DB has really told him that if he handles the puck for another second in the offensive zone to make a play then he's going in the press box, well, I just don't think that's the case.

If a juicy rebound bounces to him in the slot right now, is anyone confident that Tangradi would score? Again, give him plenty of time but it's on him to show something as well.
Seems perfectly reasonable, though some here would say you're asking too much of him, which I really can't explain.

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01-21-2013, 09:39 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post


Next Topics -

#1) What in the world do we do with Dustin Jeffrey? Joey V is irreplaceable as our 4th line center. Our 3rd/4th lines are perfect presently.

#2) Cooke with Sid? Switch Duper and Cookie a few shifts on Wednesday??? Sid and Cooke had some great chemistry last year when Sid first came back.
1) A healthy scratch in the tank for injuries and Columbus-caliber games.

2) Kunitz-Malkin-Neal is our first line; Cooke-Crosby-Tangradi is our second line. Malkin's line is producing and should do even better with Kunitz. Crosby's line isn't working, Tangradi doesn't look good with Malkin, Cooke is historically great with Crosby. If you are going to force a line, I would think this would be the one to force. You are more likely to see Tangradi develop his actual strengths with Crosby than with whatever the hell the strategy is right now.

Flame on.

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01-21-2013, 09:45 AM
  #385
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Crosby plays against lesser defenders in a 3rd line role with Cooke while hes getting his legs back last season. Cooke capitalizes on Sid's ridiculous playmaking ability for a few games. Theres a difference between that and actually having chemistry with someone.

Cooke should be attached to Sutter's hip this year.

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01-21-2013, 09:45 AM
  #386
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On a side note... I've been extremely impressed with Kennedy's work in the early going. In all three zones. He looks like a very, very dangerous player from shift to shift and is providing a ton of energy to the lineup. I know he's always been a quick starter and then fades but he looks a little different, this year. He seems to be making a concerted effort to get his head up and survey his options instead of trying to force something.

This is the Kennedy that convinced me, several years ago, that he was getting shafted by not getting a legit shot in the top six. Hope he keeps it up.

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01-21-2013, 09:53 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I'm a little bit on both sides in the endless Tangradi debate. From the eye test he's been pretty mediocre in my eyes. Doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time, is frequently a step or two behind the play, and has been pretty disappointing in terms of his ability to create any kind of offense. He just hasn't shown much at all that makes me think he's going to amount to anything over his 40 something odd games in the NHL.

With that said, he doesn't appear to be playing with any confidence and there is just something off about how he's playing. I can definitely buy into Jiggy's theory that he's trying too hard to mold his game into what the coaching staff wants and that's hampering his game right now.

Given the lack of options at the moment, I'd stick with him and see if he can figure things out. But I'm also not giving him the season to audition. I don't care about production right now, he just needs to start showing that he belongs at this level. If not, the experiment needs to come to a close and a legitimate top 9 guy brought in at the deadline.
I'm confident I know more about his game than most posters here, having watched him a ton from jrs up.

He is a robot right now and it blows, but he has to do what he is told to stick. I said last year he needs regular NHL minutes on the third and fourth lines and to be brought along slowly. I wasn't happy when I heard he would be put with Malkin, but it was an opportunity so you just hope for the best.

People have claimed Glass can do the same thing as Tangradi on that line. Great. I say go for it DB.

Tangradi and Vitale have unreal chemistry together and caused absolute havoc in the A two seasons ago when they were on the third line together. Playing with Vitale grinding ****ers down and cycling the puck, without the pressure of playing with Malkin and Neal, is exactly what he needs to be doing right now. Vitale brings out the best in Tangradi and vice versa.

That is where I want him and where he will find his game. He and Vitale know how to support each other and they work the puck beautifully. He will actually touch the puck more in this role and make more plays. Get them together and get him the hell away from Malkin.

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01-21-2013, 09:53 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Schenn had a 20 game streak in Feb-March, getting regular minutes, where he had I believe one point.

Flyers kept playing him... He struggled right though April and found his game in the playoffs.

Now he is getting top line minutes and I watched both of his games this weekend and he is struggling.

This is one of the best fwd prospects in the game.. A kid who tore up the A.

Just a little perspective.
Schenn also was playing on the fourth line.

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01-21-2013, 09:54 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
People can say what they like, it's a free board to voice your opinion. But this is more than one game and has been going on forever.

I came into this thread expecting to read about Vitale, Sutter's unreal defensive prowess, Martin being a rock, Neal getting off to a hot start, etc. Then I find page after page ripping on Tangradi. I mean WTF?

The team is 2-0 and people just want their pound of flesh out of this kid.

Our fanbase has been spoiled rotten and have no patience and zero understanding of how long normal prospects take to develop. I have been watching rookies develop every year on other teams for years now and Tangradi's curve is the norm. People need to accept that.

The cry here has been for DB to play rookies, then when he does and they aren't stars after two games, they need sent to the A/traded.

Rookies make mistakes and need time to learn the game. Not everyone is Crosby, Staal, Malkin.
As I said, I hope you're not lumping anyone who dares to be critical about one game into that group.

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I'm so surprised by how much of a lightning rod Tangradi is in general, and season to date.

I am not ET apologist supporter basher hater etc.. but i just don't see what has happened so far that would warrant more than a "this could go either way".

I am going to give him a positive nod for games 1 & 2. He is new to everyday NHL work in the reg season, playing consistent minutes on the best line in the league. And thus far, the line has looked like the best in the league. So while he may not be setting the world on fire, he also isn't hurting effectiveness.

The analysts among us have highlighted areas he should improve. And certainly there have been some less than pretty moments, particularly on the breakout. But... i have seen him drive the net, open lanes, and create disruption on the forecheck. Now, disruption is not big hits. But, that line has caused a noticeably high rate of offensive zone (blue line in) turn overs in each game. Anyone who has played in basic systems knows forechecking is a unit job and not one guy. The first guy however, needs to be step one in forcing less desirable options (aka non clean breakouts). So far ET has been effective in disrupting the other team's first option, leading to mistimed passes which Geno and Neal are feasting on.

I have always said lets go 7 games, knowing there would be pluses and minuses. I will judge the need for change based on the effectiveness of the line overall. So far, i can't be real upset.

Other thoughts: TK. great start. not just the goals, but play in all 3 zones and making sure our 3rd line outperforms the other teams.

I will say the same for the bottom 6. My POV is "Did our bottom 6 do more to aide in victory than the other teams bottom 6?". I really like the play so far.

My biggest concern is Sid's line (in the near term). IF THERE IS ANY LINE TO DISCUSS it is Sid's line. they have not looked like a great 1st OR 2nd line thus far. Not creating chances. Not finding space. Def not looking dangerous every shift. Hopefully one good game turns it around.

PP: great job with Neal on the point. Actually plays the position well (PP perspective), making good pinches and decisions. His shot, and willingness to use it, makes our PP much more DIRECT and doesn't let the PK get set in perfect position.
Can't speak for anyone else, but that's where I'm at. That's where I was at yesterday morning. And, that's where I was at Saturday morning.

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01-21-2013, 09:57 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I realize using pictures to show something isn't ideal, but it should be adequate for this purpose.

To me it's quite apparent that Boyle drops his responsibilities for Neal and heads towards Tangradi. It can also be mentioned that Girardi is out of position behind the net because he followed Tangradi around the boards.



I appreciate the correction.

Can you next help me out with the Zapruder film?

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01-21-2013, 09:57 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
On a side note... I've been extremely impressed with Kennedy's work in the early going. In all three zones. He looks like a very, very dangerous player from shift to shift and is providing a ton of energy to the lineup. I know he's always been a quick starter and then fades but he looks a little different, this year. He seems to be making a concerted effort to get his head up and survey his options instead of trying to force something.

This is the Kennedy that convinced me, several years ago, that he was getting shafted by not getting a legit shot in the top six. Hope he keeps it up.
Kennedy has been great. I just disagree with the last part. This is the Kennedy that to me absolutely belongs on the third line to give that depth scoring

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01-21-2013, 10:00 AM
  #392
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The "win now" schtick is just that. It's something to keep young guys down and bring in veterans. So within the next, I don't know, 15 years, are the Pens ever going to not be in a "win now" mode to where they can actually bring young players along? As a great team, you have to find a way to fit in your young guys and let them develop.

As much as I hate Philly, they've done this phenomenally well over the years. They plug guys like Giroux in the lineup, and let him get comfortable. As he gets more comfortable they feed him more responsibility. They've done this with numerous players over the years. They give their young guys a great mix of comfort, shelter, and opportunity. Giving them all enough leash to succeed, but not enough to hang themselves with.


IF we're going to be a successful organization at developing talent, we need to be able to let our young guys play, and be able to put up with hiccups. A lot of people here have been jaded by the fact we've had some incredibly young players step in and play well almost immediately. Those guys are the exception...not the rule.
That's what Bylsma, IMO, is doing with Despres. If you think about it, that's how Therrien handled Staal.

With Tangradi, Bylsma jumped a couple of steps, never giving Tangradi a chance to grow and earn minutes like those kids with the Flyers everyone is talking about and now throwing him right into the fire by default. It's an unfair situation for him, but it is what it is.

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It's not a high horse to suggest people don't rag on a young kid and be patient with him while he learns.

Why should he be crucified because this team hasn't developed a top six guy in decades, outside of Malone? It isn't his fault, nor is it his fault Shero hasn't found better top six options.

This is exactly why people rag on him and are so impatient. If he was brought along on the third line and slowly worked his way up, people would still rag on him for not being good enough for the top six.

He can't win, no matter what he does. He basically has to magically skip the steep learning curve of a normal prospect to make people happy and that isn't happening.
But, again-- and here's where I find fault with your analogy-- he's not being put into a position to learn like all the guys you've been talking about. Unfair? Then and now, IMO. But, while I don't want to give Tangradi more short shrift, I don't want to leave him with Geno and Neal forever if we don't see real progress (not in a game, not in a month, but I want to see where he's at in 20 games).

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01-21-2013, 10:04 AM
  #393
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I missed yesterday's game so I didn't know about this new faceoff rule. What a stupid rule. What the hell is the point of that?

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01-21-2013, 10:05 AM
  #394
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Wow guys, enough with the Tangradi stuff. Aren't there more important topics to discuss haha.

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01-21-2013, 10:06 AM
  #395
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Crosby plays against lesser defenders in a 3rd line role with Cooke while hes getting his legs back last season. Cooke capitalizes on Sid's ridiculous playmaking ability for a few games. Theres a difference between that and actually having chemistry with someone.

Cooke should be attached to Sutter's hip this year.
Question: How were the Rangers defending Sid and Geno last night? It looked to me like Geno and Neal were drawing McDonagh-Girardi most of the time and that Staal-Del Zotto went with Sid. If that's the case, then Geno already is drawing the top defensive unit.

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01-21-2013, 10:06 AM
  #396
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Schenn also was playing on the fourth line.
Cuz, he was avg around 14 minutes a game. He was shifting all around the bottom 6.

During that scoreless streak he was routinely getting 15 and 16 minute nights.

I watched him a ton last year, trust me or go look up his TOI if you don't believe me.

Flyers kept feeding him minutes and he worked it out after a few months, just in time to kill the Pens.

Even the best prospects need regular minutes for many months to get going.

It's the nature of the game.

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01-21-2013, 10:06 AM
  #397
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I missed yesterday's game so I didn't know about this new faceoff rule. What a stupid rule. What the hell is the point of that?
They also have a 'you can't put your hand over the puck and pass it in one motion' rule. Richards got called for that one.

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01-21-2013, 10:08 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Cuz, he was avg around 14 minutes a game. He was shifting all around the bottom 6.

During that scoreless streak he was routinely getting 15 and 16 minute nights.

I watched him a ton last year, trust me or go look up his TOI if you don't believe me.

Flyers kept feeding him minutes and he worked it out after a few months, just in time to kill the Pens.

Even the best prospects need regular minutes for many months to get going.

It's the nature of the game.
Look, you're preaching to the choir here. I'm still going to comment on what I see in +/- threads for what I see in any one game. But, I don't know how I can be any clearer that my personal evaluation standards are not tied to the minutia of any shift, period, or even game.

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01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
  #399
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That's what Bylsma, IMO, is doing with Despres. If you think about it, that's how Therrien handled Staal.

With Tangradi, Bylsma jumped a couple of steps, never giving Tangradi a chance to grow and earn minutes like those kids with the Flyers everyone is talking about and now throwing him right into the fire by default. It's an unfair situation for him, but it is what it is.



But, again-- and here's where I find fault with your analogy-- he's not being put into a position to learn like all the guys you've been talking about. Unfair? Then and now, IMO. But, while I don't want to give Tangradi more short shrift, I don't want to leave him with Geno and Neal forever if we don't see real progress (not in a game, not in a month, but I want to see where he's at in 20 games).
I just said and keep saying, give him regular bottom 6 minutes and bring him along slowly.

People want Glass with Malkin, cool. The options are all shifty anyway, so I don't really care TBTH.

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01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
  #400
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I missed yesterday's game so I didn't know about this new faceoff rule. What a stupid rule. What the hell is the point of that?
They are trying to limit hand-play in general. You also are no longer allowed to cover the puck with your hand, which you use to see when guys were down and still battling for the puck, they would gobble it and slide it toward a teammate. The old rule was that you couldn't do this in the crease, now you can't do it at all. The other new rule is that you can't carry a puck after catching it; you have to either swat it down or immediately drop it.

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