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This is a Bad Hockey Team: Part 2

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Old
02-01-2013, 09:52 AM
  #301
BBKers
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Average icetime so far this year

Dan Girardi: 24:51
Ryan McDonagh: 24:31
Michael Del Zotto: 23:33
Marc Staal: 23:06
Rick Nash: 21:23
Brad Richards: 21:16
Ryan Callahan: 20:00
Marian Gaborik: 19:56

Torts is a fool
He did not see how this worked out last year?
These guys are gonna get so burned out...
This leaves less than 11 minutes per #5/#6 D on the ice per game
No other team overplays their top guys like this
Nobody
Despite playing the first liners so heavily - the past 4 games we have scored 8 goals in all and just 2 (out of 16 attempts) on the PP
Do the players stink so bad?

Or is it something else?

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02-01-2013, 09:56 AM
  #302
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I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt thus far, but I'm terrified of having Rupp & Asham earning 2.5m combined next year.

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02-01-2013, 10:01 AM
  #303
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I don't have time to calculate it, but is it me or as this team gotten old this year? I remember the last few years we would all boast how this team was young and only going to get better, but we have lost some young guys in Dubinsky and Anisomov, to get Nash and brought in older guys to replace in Halpern/Pyatt ans Asham. Not to mention old man Rupp. Plus everyone else has gotten older. To me this team looks old and slower. Just my 2 cents, but if someone has time to look up what the average age was 2 years ago and compare it to today, that would be great.

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02-01-2013, 10:02 AM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Dan Girardi: 24:51
Ryan McDonagh: 24:31
Michael Del Zotto: 23:33
Marc Staal: 23:06
Rick Nash: 21:23
Brad Richards: 21:16
Ryan Callahan: 20:00
Marian Gaborik: 19:56

Torts is a fool
He did not see how this worked out last year?
These guys are gonna get so burned out...
This leaves less than 11 minutes per #5/#6 D on the ice per game
No other team overplays their top guys like this
Nobody
Despite playing the first liners so heavily - the past 4 games we have scored 8 goals in all and just 2 (out of 16 attempts) on the PP
Do the players stink so bad?

Or is it something else?
We have no depth.

Who should be getting more ice time? Bickel? Boyle? Rupp?

One of the major drawbacks of the Nash trade was that it gave us less depth, and now we don't have as much cap space to improve the bottom six or find a sixth defenseman. I don't like the idea of overusing our top guys but our other options are so lousy that I can't blame torts for doing so, especially with Cally out.

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02-01-2013, 10:08 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
I don't have time to calculate it, but is it me or as this team gotten old this year? I remember the last few years we would all boast how this team was young and only going to get better, but we have lost some young guys in Dubinsky and Anisomov, to get Nash and brought in older guys to replace in Halpern/Pyatt ans Asham. Not to mention old man Rupp. Plus everyone else has gotten older. To me this team looks old and slower. Just my 2 cents, but if someone has time to look up what the average age was 2 years ago and compare it to today, that would be great.

Yes. They didn't add any younger players. The last few years the Rangers would add a couple of prospects to their roster. Not this year.

The 3rd & 4th line have older players. Asham, Rupp, Halpern, Pyatt will bump the avg. roster age.

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02-01-2013, 10:34 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Nyrvana View Post
Reality:

Played the Pens twice, Bruins twice, Flyers twice, Maple Leafs once.

3 of those teams will be in the top 6 of the Eastern Conference.

Anyone that expected to come hot out of the gate is dillusional with the changes that we made over the last year and Hank not playing during the lockout.

We will win 9 out of the 12 games in February with the only "tough" games being the Devils, Bruins again, and the Senators. All those games are away. Have to figure we win at least one of those 3 and lose one of the games we should win.


Give the team some time, and don't be that fan that jumps ship just because we look bad against 3 very good teams.
agreed

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:36 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
2 Posts and bad mental errors at the wrong time.

Sure, they didn't play a great game - but neither did Pittsburgh. To me its been more about mental errors, PP play and sustaining their battle level that's been evident in most of the losses. Those things are correctable and come with time.

Of course it hurts losing Cally, some guys are under performing not putting the puck in the net and they could use another deft forward, but I dont think they are a bad hockey team - especially when 80% of the team is back from last year and they added Nash.

It would be nice if this was happening in a full season instead of shortened one. I really think a Torts' style team relies heavily on a full training camp and when you dont have that you build as you go. We may see 2 good games followed by a dud, and then 3 or 4 decent ones followed by another. I think a lot of teams are going through that.

Its going to be a battle all season, just get to the dance.
100 percent agree....It is all mental. Even simple recognition of an open lane and just skating to it to give a passing option, or (Boyle) not covering for stall when crosby gets his breakaway, or (Stall) on 3rd goal instead of trying to one hnad chip it out of the zone he could have just picked the puck up and skate it down our boards behind the net. I mean there were tons of mental mistakes in that game.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:37 AM
  #308
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I called it out prior to the season. They lack an identity. The 1st line is all offense. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines are grinders who are a mix of super speedsters and lumbering giants. The mix isn't working all that well as of yet.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:40 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I called it out prior to the season. They lack an identity. The 1st line is all offense. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines are grinders who are a mix of super speedsters and lumbering giants. The mix isn't working all that well as of yet.
Kind of difficult to find an identity with a 7 day training camp only 7 games into the season.

Last year's team's identity was basically that they were going to come out, play hard every shift, block every shot, and grind the opposition into the ground. That should be every team's identity at it's core.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:40 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I called it out prior to the season. They lack an identity. The 1st line is all offense. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines are grinders who are a mix of super speedsters and lumbering giants. The mix isn't working all that well as of yet.
Understandable.

Still, where's the forecheck? It was absolutely non-existent last night.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:41 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Agree that the team looks lethargic. Yes, we lost a lot of gritty players. Yes, we were without Callahan tonight.

But that's no excuse as to why the players on the ice tonight, and for much of the season, have lacked intensity. Many of the players look disengaged. It's almost as if they mentally checked out and assumed the season would be cancelled and they are just going through the motions now.
Or they think they're going to just stroll into the post season because of the success they had last yr. and THEN they can start working... Which is more likely.

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02-01-2013, 10:46 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
We have no depth.

Who should be getting more ice time? Bickel? Boyle? Rupp?

One of the major drawbacks of the Nash trade was that it gave us less depth, and now we don't have as much cap space to improve the bottom six or find a sixth defenseman. I don't like the idea of overusing our top guys but our other options are so lousy that I can't blame torts for doing so, especially with Cally out.
Let's be realistic for a second. Talking about forward depth specifically, Erixon being a dman and not entirely NHL ready still, doesn't really count. We traded two forwards and got one back. Yes, of course 2 for 1 means less depth, but is that what caused this lack of depth? Really? Being one man down after the trade?

No. The poor choice of signings is what caused it. Rupp was a poor signing two years ago. He barely played last year and we had depth to bury him behind, so it didn't matter. Now he's a regular.

The depth that we lost, ignoring Dubinsky and Anisimov, was Prust, Fedetenko, Mitchell, Christensen. Let's say we replaced Dubi and Arty with Nash and Kreider. We replaced Prust with Asham. Big downgrade. We replaced Mitchell with Halpern; big downgrade. Mitchell killed penalties, was given a lot more ES time and actually could put up points. We replaced Fedetenko with Pyatt. You could call it a lateral move but Fedetenko was a bit quicker (scary, I know) and the overall better player, especially defensively. And Christensen... we couldn't stand him, but who would you rather have when injuries happen and we need someone to slot in? Christensen or Bickel? Or Newbury? And Kreider, for the time being, is a big downgrade from both Dubinsky and Anisimov. In the end, what do you get? A roster that upgraded one position while downgrading 4-5 others in a SIGNIFICANT way.

But how many of those downgrades are a direct result of the Nash trade and how many are poor decisions from Sather and Torts? Fedetenko signed in Philly for 1.75M. We paid him 1.5M the year before. Why would we elect not to bring him back at that price? John Mitchell had a .99M cap hit last year and makes 1.1M in Colorado. Why not bring him back at that price? Why did we make unnecessary changes to a team that was in game 6 of the ECF? I understand pulling the trigger on the trade, especially after Kreider's playoff performance makes it look like he can replace one of the two guys, but Fedetenko, Mitchell and even Prust (I'm sure we could have gotten him to take 2M or 1.9M or something - and yes, he'd be overpaid, but we would be SO much better) should all have been brought back, no brainer. We could have kept all three and only given a raise to Prust, and it would have only been a ~1M raise. 1.25M more on the cap to keep all three is not much. This team would have a lot more heart, a lot more cohesion and a Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line would get 12+ minutes a game without fail, giving the other guys a rest.

Moveover, we kind of lost the identity that made the team so lovable in the first place.

Last Year:
Callahan
Dubinsky
Anisimov
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Hagelin
Boyle
Prust
Fedetenko
Kreider
Mitchell
Rupp

This Year:
Callahan
Richards
Gaborik
Nash
Stepan
Hagelin
Pyatt
Boyle
Halpern
Kreider
Asham
Rupp
Ferriero

Should Be:
Callahan
Richards
Nash
Gaborik
Stepan
Hagelin
Kreider
Boyle
Prust
Fedetenko
Mitchell
Rupp



How much better does that look? Just by choosing to keep Prust, Fedetenko and Mitchell (only Prust of whom got a significant raise) over Pyatt, Halpern, Asham. We went from this tight knit, homegrown, young, high energy team that grew up in the system (or became what they are: Boyle + Prust in the system) to a top heavy junk yard team. After the first 5 names our roster is a bunch of scraps now.


Last edited by SERE 24: 02-01-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old
02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
Let's be realistic for a second. Talking about forward depth specifically, Erixon being a dman and not entirely NHL ready still, doesn't really count. We traded two forwards and got one back. Yes, of course 2 for 1 means less depth, but is that what caused this lack of depth? Really? Being one man down after the trade?

No. The poor choice of signings is what caused it. Rupp was a poor signing two years ago. He barely played last year and we had depth to bury him behind, so it didn't matter. Now he's a regular.

The depth that we lost, ignoring Dubinsky and Anisimov, was Prust, Fedetenko, Mitchell, Christensen. Let's say we replaced Dubi and Arty with Nash and Kreider. We replaced Prust with Asham. Big downgrade. We replaced Mitchell with Halpern; big downgrade. Mitchell killed penalties, was given a lot more ES time and actually could put up points. We replaced Fedetenko with Pyatt. You could call it a lateral move but Fedetenko was a bit quicker (scary, I know) and the overall better player, especially defensively. And Christensen... we couldn't stand him, but who would you rather have when injuries happen and we need someone to slot in? Christensen or Bickel? Or Newbury? And Kreider, for the time being, is a big downgrade from both Dubinsky and Anisimov. In the end, what do you get? A roster that upgraded one position while downgrading 4-5 others in a SIGNIFICANT way.

But how many of those downgrades are a direct result of the Nash trade and how many are poor decisions from Sather and Torts? Fedetenko signed in Philly for 1.75M. We paid him 1.5M the year before. Why would we elect not to bring him back at that price? John Mitchell had a .99M cap hit last year and makes 1.1M in Colorado. Why not bring him back at that price? Why did we make unnecessary changes to a team that was in game 6 of the ECF? I understand pulling the trigger on the trade, especially after Kreider's playoff performance makes it look like he can replace one of the two guys, but Fedetenko, Mitchell and even Prust (I'm sure we could have gotten him to take 2M or 1.9M or something - and yes, he'd be overpaid, but we would be SO much better) should all have been brought back, no brainer. We could have kept all three and only given a raise to Prust, and it would have only been a ~1M raise. 1.25M more on the cap to keep all three is not much. This team would have a lot more heart, a lot more cohesion and a Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line would get 12+ minutes a game without fail, giving the other guys a rest.

Moveover, we kind of lost the identity that made the team so lovable in the first place.

Callahan
Dubinsky
Anisimov
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Hagelin
Boyle
Prust
Fedetenko
Kreider
Mitchell
Rupp


Callahan
Richards
Gaborik
Nash
Stepan
Hagelin
Pyatt
Boyle
Halpern
Kreider
Asham
Rupp
Ferriero



We went from this tight knit, homegrown, young, high energy team that grew up in the system (or became what they are: Boyle + Prust in the system) to a top heavy junk yard team. After the first 5 names our roster is a bunch of scraps now.
Hagelin, Boyle, and Kreider are all scraps?

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #314
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Kind of difficult to find an identity with a 7 day training camp only 7 games into the season.

Last year's team's identity was basically that they were going to come out, play hard every shift, block every shot, and grind the opposition into the ground. That should be every team's identity at it's core.
I agree. Unfortunately with Callahan now out and the loss of so many players it is going to take time for them to grasp everything. They have shown it in glimpses, which is good. They just need to bring it every night.

I am not all THAT worried. Just need time. I still like the team in general. There are obviously a few things I would look to improve but that's what the deadline is for.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:56 AM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
We have no depth.

Who should be getting more ice time? Bickel? Boyle? Rupp?

One of the major drawbacks of the Nash trade was that it gave us less depth, and now we don't have as much cap space to improve the bottom six or find a sixth defenseman. I don't like the idea of overusing our top guys but our other options are so lousy that I can't blame torts for doing so, especially with Cally out.
He does this regardlessly. He did it last year. And the year before. And he did it in Tampa. With a freak cup homerun as a result - until he got run outta Dodge...
Maniac
Reminds me of a crazy coach I had in juniors that always won the league every year but our top guys were so gassed in the playoffs that we never went more than a round. He was a creepy guy too, slept with his eyes open... It was so frustrating (me being a goalie ) to get this deja vu feeling here again.
Regarding the icetime - if there were to be any kind of accountability - he should NOT PLAY the top 3 guys now on the PP with what they are putting up there. Play anyone and everyone else. Results could hardly could get worse there anyways. Pretty sure Rupp, Halpern & Asham would have scored as many goals on the 5 on 3 that our big guns have racked up. That might send them a wakeup signal too - no? I am dead serious.
There may be flaws in the lineup, but I see more coaching flaws than roster flaws here! Using Girardi on the PP instead of Stralman is just one thing of very many...

1st line
Rick Nash 21:23 (1:44 PK) (3:57 PP)
Brad Richards 21:16 (4:32 PP)
Marian Gaborik 19:56 (3:58 PP)

2nd line
Carl Hagelin 16:28 (1:44 PK) (1:20 PP)
Derek Stepan 18:06 (2:09 PK) (3:04 PP)
Ryan Callahan 20:00 (3:26 PK) (4:17 PP)

3rd liners
Taylor Pyatt 14:39 (1:51 PP)
Brian Boyle 15:03 (3:46 PK)
Chris Kreider 9:22 in 3 games or
Benn Ferriero 11:11 in 3 games

4th liners
Mike Rupp 6:30
Jeff Halpern 8:54 (3:05 PK)
Arron Asham 4:56 in 4 games or
Brandon Segal 5:21 in 1 game or
Kris Newbury 5:00 in 1 game

#1/#2 D
Ryan McDonaugh 24:31 (4:46 PK) (0:41 PP)
Dan Girardi 24:51 (4:49 PK) (2:15 PP)

#3/#4 D
Marc Staal 23:06 (2:43 PK) (0:34 PP)
Michael del Zotto 23:33 (2:43 PK) (4:07 PP)

#5 D
Anton Stralman 13:02 (0:52 PK) (1:24 PP)

#6 D
Steve Eminger 5:52 3 games
Stu Bickel 5:23 3 games on D
Matt Gilroy 10:26 1 game


Last edited by BBKers: 02-01-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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02-01-2013, 10:59 AM
  #316
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Hagelin, Boyle, and Kreider are all scraps?
Hagelin has half a year in the NHL where he scored well, but that may not turn out to be his average production. I love Hagelin. I'm not calling him scraps to insult him, but he's realistically a very speedy, high motor third line guy. Kreider is scraps until he proves anything in the NHL. Obviously he's valuable, but as far as what he has been able to provide, he could be any, average third line player. Boyle is a player I love but he's an okay third line/great fourth line center. Not exactly a diamond in the rough. My point wasn't to insult these players but that they aren't anything special (right now, in the case of Kreider or Hagelin outside of his speed) and that, yes, our roster looks a LOT uglier overall. Moreover, way to hone in on and pick out the absolute LEAST relevant part of my post; the way I worded a single sentence.

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02-01-2013, 11:06 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by NY Lito View Post
Hagelin, Boyle, and Kreider are all scraps?
Boyle is a scrap. The sooner Torts figures it out the better the team will be. Hags is a player and he's starting to perform. Jury still out on CK.

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02-01-2013, 11:06 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
Hagelin has half a year in the NHL where he scored well, but that may not turn out to be his average production. I love Hagelin. I'm not calling him scraps to insult him, but he's realistically a very speedy, high motor third line guy. Kreider is scraps until he proves anything in the NHL. Obviously he's valuable, but as far as what he has been able to provide, he could be any, average third line player. Boyle is a player I love but he's an okay third line/great fourth line center. Not exactly a diamond in the rough. My point wasn't to insult these players but that they aren't anything special (right now, in the case of Kreider or Hagelin outside of his speed) and that, yes, our roster looks a LOT uglier overall. Moreover, way to hone in on and pick out the absolute LEAST relevant part of my post; the way I worded a single sentence.
A LOT uglier? The "pretty" players we lost were Prust, AA, and Dubi. I miss the hell out of Prust, and I think Dubi would make a difference on this team. AA was someone who needed a move to reach his potential IMO.

Fedotenko wasn't much of a loss. Surprisingly I think we should have re-signed Johnny Malkin, we actually miss his ability to carry the puck.

Overall the roster doesn't look as lovable as last year's, but it's still way early. If we're still hovering around .500 come March then yes it's time to criticize but I still have faith in the roster.

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02-01-2013, 11:08 AM
  #319
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Boyle is a scrap. The sooner Torts figures it out the better the team will be. Hags is a player and he's starting to perform. Jury still out on CK.
Boyle is an excellent 4th line center and a great PKer. Many teams would love to have him.

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02-01-2013, 11:09 AM
  #320
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For such a "scrap", I think Boyle has looked pretty damn good this year.

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02-01-2013, 11:11 AM
  #321
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Is it just me or has Hagelin really not been taking advantage of his speed nearly as much as he did last year? Seems like the team isn't putting the puck into open spaces and letting him beat everyone else to it. He's shown more energy the last couple games, but his explosive speed has not been showcased.

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02-01-2013, 11:14 AM
  #322
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A LOT uglier? The "pretty" players we lost were Prust, AA, and Dubi. I miss the hell out of Prust, and I think Dubi would make a difference on this team. AA was someone who needed a move to reach his potential IMO.

Fedotenko wasn't much of a loss. Surprisingly I think we should have re-signed Johnny Malkin, we actually miss his ability to carry the puck.

Overall the roster doesn't look as lovable as last year's, but it's still way early. If we're still hovering around .500 come March then yes it's time to criticize but I still have faith in the roster.
I don't know what this "pretty" BS is. Swapping Prust, Fedetenko, Mitchell and Dubinsky for Asham, Pyatt, Halpern and Kreider (who right now might as well be Halpern without PKing) are all big time downgrades and take away from the identity that drove this team. Only Dubinsky was part of the trade for Nash. There's no reason we shouldn't have kept the Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line together. I understand not wanting to pay Prust 2M but we did not find an adequate replacement, whatsoever. Fedetenko should have stayed because he's a cheap vet who played the system to a T, PKd well and had chemistry with his line. Mitchell should have stayed at the same price he was earning. Why sign a 36 year old and inferior Halpern over him? I'm not talking about aesthetics here, in case you're lost. The roster lost cohesion, lost depth, lost players we KNEW we could rely on, and lost identity. That's ugly. The collection of scraps we brought in to fill the holes is a problem.

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02-01-2013, 11:15 AM
  #323
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RRReeee-lax. This team has new pieces, no camp, and a tough system. I'm sort of glad that they're going to have to overcome some early adversity...we'll see if it brings them together or splits them apart. My vote is they'll gel, then bond, then kick some ass. We're only 2 NYR wins / 2 Ott losses out of 2nd in the conference. Things can swing very quickly this early in the year. Remember 0-3 last year...don't jump off the ledge just yet.

LGR!

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02-01-2013, 11:16 AM
  #324
Bob Richards
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The more I think about it, the more I realize how ridiculous it was to let Feds go. I've grown more comfortable with the Halpern signing but Asham was a ****ing waste.

I do miss Prust but not for the money he wanted.

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02-01-2013, 11:18 AM
  #325
SERE 24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
For such a "scrap", I think Boyle has looked pretty damn good this year.
It's not meant as an insult. I like Boyle fine. But he is what he is. The point was that outside of a few standout names, a team that was very deep and cohesive is now a team with a first line and then a bunch of "odds and ends" (there, do you like that wording better than "scrap"? You can have a good odd or end). The point is it's like a barrel of random players with no design on how they fit together. Guys who were perfect fits were arbitrarily cut loose in favor of new odds and ends without any real logic behind it. Boyle can look 'pretty damn good' all he wants (and I agree) but it's NEVER going to win you a hockey game. I'd give a toe to have Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko getting 12 minutes a night ES right now.

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