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Envy and ignorance of Canadiens haters.

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03-04-2005, 06:20 PM
  #1
Chet-Nick
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Envy and ignorance of Canadiens haters.

Time and time again, I've heard some Leafs and Bruins fans allege that Montreal's overall historical success is tainted. Their complaint being, the Canadiens had an exclusive monopoly on French-Canadian players from Quebec. This theory is somewhat correct and also very flawed.

Prior to 1963, all NHL teams operated sponsored junior clubs. There was no draft. Young players were signed during their teens and assigned to specific junior teams. First come, first served. The Amateur Draft (predecessor to today's Entry Draft) began in 1963 and that put an end to the previous system.

Granted, the Canadiens did have an OPTION to make these CULTURAL SELECTIONS. If they decided to utilize this option. Montreal would immediately FORFEIT their own first and second round picks. They could, however, acquire someone elses first round pick through a trade.

What many people don't realize is, out of the SEVEN drafts (1963-69) this unique rule existed. Montreal only exercised it TWICE. That being in 1968 (Michel Plasse/Roger Belisle) and 1969 (Rejean Houle/Marc Tardif).

During the 1950's and 1960's there were numerous French-Canadians who did NOT go through Montreal's impressive system. Instead, they were recruited by the other NHL clubs. This list includes Hall of Famers like Bernie Parent, Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, Pierre Pilote and Marcel Pronovost.

Other notable French-Canadians, from this era, that DIDN'T start their career with Montreal were Gilles Villemure, Jean Pronovost, Gilles "Captain Crunch" Marotte, Serge Bernier and Don Marcotte.

So, the next time some misguided and jealous Canadiens basher brings up this subject. Tell them to do their homework before they open their mouth.

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03-04-2005, 07:46 PM
  #2
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Well, what about the habs fans that bash the Leafs and Bruins all the time, when it really isn't warrented? What goes around, comes around.

Good post though.

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03-04-2005, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Well, what about the habs fans that bash the Leafs and Bruins all the time, when it really isn't warrented? What goes around, comes around.

Good post though.
There's no such thing as Leafs or Bruins bashing that isn't warranted, come on you should know that by now. :lol

Agreed though, nice history on the cultural draft. It was still unfair, no matter how you slice it.

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03-04-2005, 08:44 PM
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I`ve heard that same argument several times by Habs-bashers, the fact is that Selke and company worked their butts off to find the best players in Quebec and sign them; to say that`s unfair is like saying New Jersey`s success over the last 10 years is unfair because they`ve done a better job scouting.

BTW, i`m not a Montreal fan,in fact when i was a kid in the 70s i hated that dynasty with a passion, although now i count myself fortunate to have been able to watch them play.

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03-04-2005, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning
I`ve heard that same argument several times by Habs-bashers, the fact is that Selke and company worked their butts off to find the best players in Quebec and sign them; to say that`s unfair is like saying New Jersey`s success over the last 10 years is unfair because they`ve done a better job scouting.

BTW, i`m not a Montreal fan,in fact when i was a kid in the 70s i hated that dynasty with a passion, although now i count myself fortunate to have been able to watch them play.
I hope you weren't referring to me when you said we shouldn't say it was unfair.

How is it fair to have one team allowed to have a cultural draft, yet others not have one?

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03-04-2005, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
I hope you weren't referring to me when you said we shouldn't say it was unfair.

How is it fair to have one team allowed to have a cultural draft, yet others not have one?
Do you think it's fair that a player who grows up worshipping the Leaves is forced to play for a team like Florida for example? Fair is such a subjective term in this scenario. In this day and age I agree a cultural draft would be inappropriate, but remember the political environment back then was quite tense and concessions were made. History did show that no significant gains were made by Montreal during that period, so to say it was unfair is moot.

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03-04-2005, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by loudi94
Do you think it's fair that a player who grows up worshipping the Leaves is forced to play for a team like Florida for example? Fair is such a subjective term in this scenario. In this day and age I agree a cultural draft would be inappropriate, but remember the political environment back then was quite tense and concessions were made. History did show that no significant gains were made by Montreal during that period, so to say it was unfair is moot.
So at the time should the Leafs have gotten first crack at all Ontario born players?

I'm for equal treatment, not for special concessions to be made. I don't care if the players they took actually hurt them in the longrun, it's still unfair because of the potential gains it would have given them. Heck, they didn't even need to use the cultural draft to make it unfair. I'm not trying to blame the Habs for this, I say good for them for getting a leg up, but the NHL did a terrible thing by allowing that, in my oppinion.

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03-05-2005, 03:53 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
There's no such thing as Leafs or Bruins bashing that isn't warranted, come on you should know that by now. :lol

Agreed though, nice history on the cultural draft. It was still unfair, no matter how you slice it.
you should be a mod.... you're so classy with the way you get your points across..... Its my job to hate the leafs but its impossible to hate posters like you..... I know its off topic but that's something I've been meaning to say a while

good job

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03-05-2005, 10:26 AM
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Without a doubt the "cultural" entity was unfair to the other five teams. However, as I clearly mentioned, Montreal only used it TWICE during its SEVEN year existence.

Before the Amateur Draft, both Montreal and Toronto had a 50 km radius of territorial rights for any young hockey player. Why do you think the Leafs had two sponsored junior clubs, Toronto St. Michael's Majors and the Toronto Marlboros, stocked with their prospects?

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03-05-2005, 11:46 AM
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The simple truth is that people tend to hate the clubs in any sport that do well year after year, and although we've dropped down a tad over the last decade, we are on the rise again. The New York Yankees, Manchester United and the Montreal Canadiens. Pure dynasties!

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03-05-2005, 11:53 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13
The simple truth is that people tend to hate the clubs in any sport that do well year after year, and although we've dropped down a tad over the last decade, we are on the rise again. The New York Yankees, Manchester United and the Montreal Canadiens. Pure dynasties!
Well said.

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03-05-2005, 12:12 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Habs13
.... and although we've dropped down a tad over the last decade, we are on the rise again.
Only on fan based prospects lists are the Habs fortunes on the rise. The pros see it differently.

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03-05-2005, 12:26 PM
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Really? Not thay I treat The Hockey News "Future Watch" issue as gospel. However, Montreal's system was given a grade of C+. Not bad. That wasn't from a "fan based prospect list." The Hockey News compiled its information based on the comments of 16 NHL heard scouts.

When you look at the average age of the Canadiens. They're a relatively young group with some potential. Zednik, Souray, Theodore and Bonk are all entering their prime. Ryder, Markov, Ribeiro and Komisarek will hopefully keep improving. Out Montreal's key players, only Koivu can be labelled as "old." Funny thing is, Koivu's only 30. His nickname wold be "kid" on teams like Toronto, Detroit or Philadelphia. :lol

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03-05-2005, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chet-Nick
Koivu's only 30. His nickname wold be "kid" on teams like Toronto, Detroit or Philadelphia. :lol
Funny, but those three teams with their veterans usually finish with a higher record than the Habs and usually go deeper into the playoffs.....

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03-05-2005, 01:02 PM
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For the exception of Philadelphia. Detroit, Toronto and Montreal all went the same distance in the 2004 playoffs. The elderly Red Wings have at least won the cup in 1997, 1998 and 2002. I think Ilitch is content with their results. The pressure was one the Maple Leafs last year. You failed ... again. In life, you get so many chances. When you don't capitalize on them. God knows when your next opportunity will come. Bobby Clarke might feel the same heat. Although, his team was in the final back in 1997. And you?

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03-05-2005, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet-Nick
You failed ... again. In life, you get so many chances. When you don't capitalize on them. God knows when your next opportunity will come. Bobby Clarke might feel the same heat. Although, his team was in the final back in 1997. And you?
I failed? I only get so many chances? God only knows when I will get another opportunity? My team?

Sadly I don't receive a cheque from MLSE. I wish I did though because I am over 30 and would probably get a nice chunk of change.

Reality is, who knows what the NHL is going to look like hwne/if it reutrns. Chances are though, the Leafs will have quite an opportunity to re-stock their team. Salaries will be down, they will have few players left under contract and some wiggle room. Besides Messenger has a great plan to land Sidney Crosby and Jeff Carter

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03-05-2005, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
There's no such thing as Leafs or Bruins bashing that isn't warranted, come on you should know that by now. :lol

Agreed though, nice history on the cultural draft. It was still unfair, no matter how you slice it.
I don't think it's right of us to spend our time leaf bashing. We should be diverting our energy to the sterilization of said fans or of assuming child custody to prevent future generations from the same misguided devil worship.

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03-05-2005, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
I failed? I only get so many chances? God only knows when I will get another opportunity? My team?

Sadly I don't receive a cheque from MLSE. I wish I did though because I am over 30 and would probably get a nice chunk of change.

Reality is, who knows what the NHL is going to look like hwne/if it reutrns. Chances are though, the Leafs will have quite an opportunity to re-stock their team. Salaries will be down, they will have few players left under contract and some wiggle room. Besides Messenger has a great plan to land Sidney Crosby and Jeff Carter
I think he was talking about the Leafs man...chill

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03-05-2005, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett
you should be a mod.... you're so classy with the way you get your points across..... Its my job to hate the leafs but its impossible to hate posters like you..... I know its off topic but that's something I've been meaning to say a while

good job
Agreed here... but most Leaf fans are more like Carl O'Steen.

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03-05-2005, 02:35 PM
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tml_4ever
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I have nothing against the Habs and i agree they should be respected as worthy opponents. They are one of the best teams around, even today, and there are decades of history behind the logo.

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03-05-2005, 02:38 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13
The simple truth is that people tend to hate the clubs in any sport that do well year after year, and although we've dropped down a tad over the last decade, we are on the rise again. The New York Yankees, Manchester United and the Montreal Canadiens. Pure dynasties!
I don't want to sound mean, but there hasn't been a Montreal Canadiens dynasty since the '70's - 80's.

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03-05-2005, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
Only on fan based prospects lists are the Habs fortunes on the rise. The pros see it differently.
What pros? THN? You mean the list they produced with only 16 clubs returning their calls? All the guy said was that the Habs are on the rise. Not anywhere did he say anything about prospects. If you can deny that the Habs are only getting better, then be my guest and prove it. You Leaf fans sure are OBSESSED with the Habs farm system. Your penis envy getting of you? You guys talk about it even when its not mentioned anywhere.

Fact of the matter is, the Habs have plenty of depth on the farm to ice a very competitive team, added on to an already young core at the NHL level. In addition to having a roster taking up less than 30 million, they have PLENTY of cap room to make the right additions. Not our fault the Leafs have 21 million committed for next season on three players well past their prime (maybe Sundin is the exception but he is gonna be 35 also).

Quote:
Funny, but those three teams with their veterans usually finish with a higher record than the Habs and usually go deeper into the playoffs.....
The Habs went the same distance last season with a young team as did the Leafs with an over the hill gang worth close to $70 million.

Playoff series won over the last three years:
Leafs: 3
Habs: 2
(Honestly, nothing to beat your chest over, considering there is a combined $75 million payroll difference over those three years).

So what are you gonna say, try over six years? Then why not the last eight and include the two years the Leafs missed the playoffs in 97 and 98? While we're at it, why not twelve years and include the Cup win for the Habs? What is the relevant time frame to make a comparison?


Last edited by AH: 03-05-2005 at 02:52 PM.
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03-05-2005, 02:58 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by 19bruins19
I don't want to sound mean, but there hasn't been a Montreal Canadiens dynasty since the '70's - 80's.
You're right that is the truth. I dont care about the 70s, I didn't see it, but I did see the 86 and 93 wins first hand. Bruins fans simply hate us because we have their number while Leaf fans hate us because they can never erase 1967 from the books. While they were bad the Habs had dynasties. While we were bad over a 5 year period, the Leafs, for the most part, came crashing down in the first and second rounds in embarrassing fashion.

And us Habs fans take full marks for reminding them constantly of their futility.

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03-05-2005, 05:34 PM
  #24
JOHNNY V
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet-Nick
Time and time again, I've heard some Leafs and Bruins fans allege that Montreal's overall historical success is tainted. Their complaint being, the Canadiens had an exclusive monopoly on French-Canadian players from Quebec. This theory is somewhat correct and also very flawed.

Prior to 1963, all NHL teams operated sponsored junior clubs. There was no draft. Young players were signed during their teens and assigned to specific junior teams. First come, first served. The Amateur Draft (predecessor to today's Entry Draft) began in 1963 and that put an end to the previous system.

Granted, the Canadiens did have an OPTION to make these CULTURAL SELECTIONS. If they decided to utilize this option. Montreal would immediately FORFEIT their own first and second round picks. They could, however, acquire someone elses first round pick through a trade.

What many people don't realize is, out of the SEVEN drafts (1963-69) this unique rule existed. Montreal only exercised it TWICE. That being in 1968 (Michel Plasse/Roger Belisle) and 1969 (Rejean Houle/Marc Tardif).

During the 1950's and 1960's there were numerous French-Canadians who did NOT go through Montreal's impressive system. Instead, they were recruited by the other NHL clubs. This list includes Hall of Famers like Bernie Parent, Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, Pierre Pilote and Marcel Pronovost.

Other notable French-Canadians, from this era, that DIDN'T start their career with Montreal were Gilles Villemure, Jean Pronovost, Gilles "Captain Crunch" Marotte, Serge Bernier and Don Marcotte.

So, the next time some misguided and jealous Canadiens basher brings up this subject. Tell them to do their homework before they open their mouth.

We hate you, because Hab Fans smell like chou....

VIVA LA VACHON CAKES

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03-05-2005, 05:38 PM
  #25
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nobody is going to give the leafs good draft picks or good young players for a bunch of over the hill and alot of over-rated guys and there farm team is a bunch of career ahlers.imho.

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