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colorado goaltending?

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Old
09-23-2003, 10:11 AM
  #26
wazee
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Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
Do you base this on statistical analysis or watching him play? I'm curious why you believe he had a bad year.

This type of discussion should be a reoccuring theme during the season. I suspect it will mutate into a "wait until the playoffs start" doom and gloom prediction. Abby will do just fine in the regular season, in fact he may be very good with some impressive numbers. The question is and will always be with any goaltender, does he have "it" in the playoffs. You simply never know until the goaltender gets in that situation. He has the supporting cast, the attitude and the physical ability to do well in my opinion.
I am an Avs fan. I rarely miss a game on TV and take in 5-10 a year at the Pepsi Center. So, yes, I have watched Aebischer play. I have seen him have moments of brilliance. I have seen him when he could not stop a beach ball. Unlike the Avs fans who think Aebischer will do well in the starting role, I do not believe he has the mental makeup to become a starting goalie. I base that on the fact that he failed to step up in the Olympics and that he failed to hold the fort when the Avs needed him to hold the fort so Roy could rest his injured hip. He lost 4 in a row and Roy was forced back early.

My observation that he had a poor year last year is based simply on my memory. I do not remember him winning games against good teams last year. I remember him losing leads and losing games in overtime. As a starting goalie, he will be expected to steal a game now and then. To halt a skid with a spectacular performance. I have not seen any indication that Aebischer can do that. That is why I have zero confidence in him as a starter.

Let me ask you a few questions…Do you think that Aebischer gives the Avs the best chance to win a Cup this year? Do you think Pierre Lacroix believes that?

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09-23-2003, 10:40 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by wazee
Let me ask you a few questions…Do you think that Aebischer gives the Avs the best chance to win a Cup this year? Do you think Pierre Lacroix believes that?
No. I believe the best chance for the Avs to win the cup this year would be if we had Brodeur in net. But that would cost the Avs Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, and three first round picks while we ate up 20 million of their salaries. In a less exagerrated senario like trading for the usual suspects the Avalanche still have to give up depth. Any of the goaltenders that have been mentioned would cost the Avs a significantly higher salary with frankly just as big a risk as Abby at the lower price. None of the goaltenders in question are marked by playoff success.

Here's what I saw with Abby in net last year. I saw a goaltender that recieved no goal support against said lessor teams. I saw a goaltender who despite less goal support, got his team in OT. I saw a goaltender get hung out to dry in overtime by forwards and coaching that was desperate for points to win a division title. I saw numerous goals scored on Abby in overtime off rebounds after an initial save or off the regular 2v1 rushes against him. I saw a goaltender with good relfexes, excellent positioning and a competitive fire.

Was Abby having Turek type moments last year. Did he let in blue line shots, what about his GAME was so horrid? I mean scout his performance and tell me what he's doing wrong. I agree his Olympic performance is a great concern but it's still speculation. Speculation by it's very nature can never be wrong until proven. So, we will all just have to wait and see.

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09-24-2003, 06:26 AM
  #28
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look at his sv pct. last year and tell me again how he had an awful year.... .917??? .918????? Looks good to me. He played very well for the Avs last year, and it is not his fault that his team could not score any goals for him...

i'll admit my post about his value, was probably homeristic, but I only said that b/c in the unproven goaltenders or decent no. 1 goaltenders have went for a 2nd round pick. Aeb, would probably garner at the least a 4th rounder at this point in time IMO, if he was traded for fair value.

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Old
09-24-2003, 08:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
No. I believe the best chance for the Avs to win the cup this year would be if we had Brodeur in net. But that would cost the Avs Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, and three first round picks while we ate up 20 million of their salaries. In a less exagerrated senario like trading for the usual suspects the Avalanche still have to give up depth. Any of the goaltenders that have been mentioned would cost the Avs a significantly higher salary with frankly just as big a risk as Abby at the lower price. None of the goaltenders in question are marked by playoff success.

Here's what I saw with Abby in net last year. I saw a goaltender that recieved no goal support against said lessor teams. I saw a goaltender who despite less goal support, got his team in OT. I saw a goaltender get hung out to dry in overtime by forwards and coaching that was desperate for points to win a division title. I saw numerous goals scored on Abby in overtime off rebounds after an initial save or off the regular 2v1 rushes against him. I saw a goaltender with good relfexes, excellent positioning and a competitive fire.

Was Abby having Turek type moments last year. Did he let in blue line shots, what about his GAME was so horrid? I mean scout his performance and tell me what he's doing wrong. I agree his Olympic performance is a great concern but it's still speculation. Speculation by it's very nature can never be wrong until proven. So, we will all just have to wait and see.
First, I agree with the silly statement that the Avs would have to give up too much to get Brodeur or would have, if Brodeur were actual available. You and I differ in that I believe there are a number of goalies the Avs could get for a reasonable cost that would give them a far greater chance to win the Cup than does Aebischer. IMO, a goalie that has shown he is capable of being a starter in the NHL is a far less risky choice than Aebischer, who has not.

I am not a scout, nor do I pretend to be one. I have formed my opinion of Aebischer based on what I have seen of him. Where you see technical excellence and Terek moments, I see a goalie who has flashes of competence, costly lapses, and a failure to come up big when needed. You seem willing to excuse Aebischer’s losses because of lack of goal support. Will you be as willing to make excuses for him this year?

A starting goalie must sometimes lift his team by pitching a shutout or two when his team is not scoring. I have never seen Aebischer give his team a lift. That is the main reason I have no faith in Aebischer. IMO, he is more Shields than Turek.

You answered my first question. You actually do believe that Aebischer is the best candidate to backstop the Avs in their Cup run this year.

You did not answer my second question. Do you think Pierre Lacroix agrees with you?

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Old
09-24-2003, 08:54 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Enoch
look at his sv pct. last year and tell me again how he had an awful year.... .917??? .918????? Looks good to me. He played very well for the Avs last year, and it is not his fault that his team could not score any goals for him...

i'll admit my post about his value, was probably homeristic, but I only said that b/c in the unproven goaltenders or decent no. 1 goaltenders have went for a 2nd round pick. Aeb, would probably garner at the least a 4th rounder at this point in time IMO, if he was traded for fair value.
I am not going by stats. I am going by the fact that he did not step up when he was needed. That forced Roy to return from injury early last year. A starting goalie has to be able to stop a losing streak. You seem to be willing to blame his failures on the rest of the team. Are you going to be content with excuses when he loses this year?

A starting goalie has to be able to win a game when his team is slumping. Aebischer has never shown the ability to do that. IMO, that makes him a backup goalie, not the guy who should be in net for a team that says they are going for the Cup.

Ok...you will go downgrade Aebischer's value to a 4th. I will move mine up to a 6th...mostly because there is little differnce between a 6th round pick and a 9th round pick in terms of making in the NHL...

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09-25-2003, 12:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by monkey_00
Here's a name that nobody really seems to be bringing up as a possible Colorado Goalie..........How about Byron Dafoe?........He's over in Atlanta right now and they already have a great young Goalie over there and I feel if they offered Atlanta Alex Tanguay and a good young prospect that just might be enough to pry Dafoe away from there.........what do you all think?
who ? Dafoe don't worth much more than a 7th pick .... Dafoe is no longer a no1 goalie ... give Tangay and a prospect for him is just insane and useless for the Avs .

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09-25-2003, 06:03 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by wazee
First, I agree with the silly statement that the Avs would have to give up too much to get Brodeur or would have, if Brodeur were actual available. You and I differ in that I believe there are a number of goalies the Avs could get for a reasonable cost that would give them a far greater chance to win the Cup than does Aebischer. IMO, a goalie that has shown he is capable of being a starter in the NHL is a far less risky choice than Aebischer, who has not.

I am not a scout, nor do I pretend to be one. I have formed my opinion of Aebischer based on what I have seen of him. Where you see technical excellence and Terek moments, I see a goalie who has flashes of competence, costly lapses, and a failure to come up big when needed. You seem willing to excuse Aebischer’s losses because of lack of goal support. Will you be as willing to make excuses for him this year?

A starting goalie must sometimes lift his team by pitching a shutout or two when his team is not scoring. I have never seen Aebischer give his team a lift. That is the main reason I have no faith in Aebischer. IMO, he is more Shields than Turek.

You answered my first question. You actually do believe that Aebischer is the best candidate to backstop the Avs in their Cup run this year.

You did not answer my second question. Do you think Pierre Lacroix agrees with you?
Yes, I believe Pierre Lacroix believes Aebischer is qualified and capable of backstoping the Avalanche this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazee
That forced Roy to return from injury early last year. A starting goalie has to be able to stop a losing streak.
That is speculation, there's no proof of this. It's Roy who insisted against doctor's orders and Pierre's best advice to take an ambulence from a Montreal hospital back to the arena so he could play. Don't believe for a moment that it was against Roy's desire to play. It shouldn't be a suprise if it was at Roy's insistance.

He played in games like the one against the Capitals in which he lost with .929 save %, keeping the game 2-0 until the last minutes when Sakic scores a garbage goal to make it 2-1. Abby DID lift the team in many situations last year he carried them to OT. He's not perfect of course, but outside of a couple of losses it was constantly commented on by Avalanche media that he was strung out to dry. DeVries went up to Aebischer in overtime last year and told him that he was going to be hung out alone because they needed to push for the two points. Sure enough he was. Abby lost three games when Roy was out with an injury, not four. He lost to Vancouver, Ottawa and Anaheim (OT). In those three games the Avalanche were on the pentalty kill 17 times featuring the worst PK in the NHL against two of the best power plays in the NHL. Aebischer was named the second start against Anaheim despite the loss in overtime.

We obviously disagree on Aebischer's ability to perform for the Avalanche and be a quality starting goaltender. Assuming your evaluation is correct and I am wrong, who pray tell would you rather have? Which goaltender out there has proven success in the playoffs?
I think if you list the common names we've heard before you'll find that they are all unproven in that area.

I know there are a lot of people out there with your opinion and I understand why. But, Aebischer has never had a chance to play even four games in a row in the NHL as of yet. Here is a totally unfair comparison because these are hall of fame type goaltenders and they started in eras that were different, however it's interesting to compare nonetheless. Look at the first backup years of Hasek and Belfour when they were only playing around 25 games. Losing records with bad save percentages, very bad. I contend you know little about a goaltender until they get in the playoffs, let alone when they haven't been a starter at the NHL level. Abby may very well be a flop when we hit the playoffs and as I said I share you concern about the Olympics in this respect. But the rest of the case set against Aebischer I think is shallow and refutable.

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Old
09-25-2003, 09:12 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazee

Ok...you will go downgrade Aebischer's value to a 4th. I will move mine up to a 6th...mostly because there is little differnce between a 6th round pick and a 9th round pick in terms of making in the NHL...


OT losses have no meaning. It is getting to OT that matters. THe current system is set up so teams will go all out for the win in OT b/c a loss is the same as a tie. Can you grasp this???? His team left him hanging in OT b/c they wanted to get that extra point. If they played any remote style of defense, I'm sure most of those games would have ended up in a tie.

If you honestly think that Aebischer is worth nothing but a 6th round pick or 9th round pick, then there is no point in arguing with you. Basically, you think that Aebischer is a nobody and does not deserve to play in the NHL or has little chance of success if any in the NHL. At least that is what I'm assuming b/c a 6th - 9th round pick are people that have only a remote possiblity of cracking the lineups....This seems ridiculous to me considering the guy has 32w 25L 3ties 6SO 2.19 GAA .917 Sv. Pct. career stats. Regardless of the team, these are good numbers.

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Old
09-25-2003, 09:43 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Trottier
...or longer. Aebischer is yet to prove he is capable of #1 duties over the course of an entire regular season, let alone come playoff time. However, why is it simply assumed that he will fail? He certainly has not had ample time to prove that, either.
I have to disagree. He hasn't had the opportunity to prove whether he is a #1 or not, but I think that Colorado has too much on the line to let him prove it right now. They've got a lot of money tied up in their payroll right now, and given their team's age and contract situations, this team may disassemble quite a bit after this season. If there is an opportunity to improve the goaltending situation, I think they will take it.

That being said, I think Joseph will end up there. I think he has taken too much flak over Detroits playoff shortcomings this year, and that he still is a top 10 keeper. He's the best option available to Colorado, as he can be attained without weakening their current roster.

We'll have to wait and see though. The waiver draft is coming up, and that's when we'll know what PL's intentions are.

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09-25-2003, 10:09 AM
  #35
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I agree with DiscoStu. I know I'm likely to be disappointed, but when I am, and then the Avs have to deal a player off the roster to replace Abby, I'll point back to the waiver draft. This is not the year to wonder if the kid has it. Had Teemu and Paul not signed up I'd be willing to give it a go. Lacroix has a GM's wet dream on the top two lines right now, you don't squander that for half a year wondering if the kid can do the job. Though knowing Lacroix his ego will get in the way, he will. Come February we'll be saying good bye to a good player bringing a proven starter in. I'm not saying Abby hasn't paid the price, he has. But now isn't the time to give him a chance to do something he's never been given the chance to do.

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09-25-2003, 01:29 PM
  #36
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Just a hunch, but if/when the Avs trade for a goalie, I think Aebischer will be moved as part of the deal.

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09-25-2003, 01:45 PM
  #37
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Colorado has actually a lot of options to acquire a goalie:

Buffalo: Biron
Atlanta: Dafoe
Minnesota: Fernandez/Roloson
Phoenix: Burke/Bierk/Boucher
Toronto: Kidd ( )
St. Louis: Johnson ( )
Dallas: Tugnutt (Maybe, how is Baschichue doing or whatever his name is)

And then you could wind up doing a three way trade to get a team that has a capable backup ready for the big times and get a solid backup for another team.

 
Old
09-25-2003, 02:48 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
Colorado has actually a lot of options to acquire a goalie:

Buffalo: Biron
Atlanta: Dafoe
Minnesota: Fernandez/Roloson
Phoenix: Burke/Bierk/Boucher
Toronto: Kidd ( )
St. Louis: Johnson ( )
Dallas: Tugnutt (Maybe, how is Baschichue doing or whatever his name is)
I bout the Stars will give a good goalie to the Avs , also what's is about Johnson ? He's better than Dafoe and he don't have any next to his name .

And if Biron is not enuff good for the Sabres why would the Avs want him ? If Biron is outplayed by Noronen or Miller ( won't happen this year IMO ) he his not an upgrade over Aebischer .

Minessota will probaly keep his goalie duo , they did very well last year they are their breed and Jacques Lemaire is the butter .

The only option is Burke .

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09-25-2003, 02:51 PM
  #39
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Johnson has been given many chances to be a starter for the Blues and hasn't proven. He could pull a Giguere and start really heating up but I don't know.

Biron is the just the odd-man out. If you look at his stats, they are pretty good for a goalie that played on a weak team. He got injured last year also.I believe he would be an upgrade over Aesbischer because he has played as a starter and on a weak team.

Minnesota has a problem and that's the fact that one of their goalies is going up on the waiver.

 
Old
09-25-2003, 04:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jozeph_Balej
I bout the Stars will give a good goalie to the Avs
Yeah, but he didn't say a good goalie, he said Tugnutt.

Personally, I think Aebischer would be perfectly fine in the regular season. The danger isn't Aebischer/Suave failing in the regular season, it's whether or not they'll do the job in the playoffs.

One's been little more than a sometimes-excellent, sometimes-ordinary backup. The other is a complete rookie. How many teams who have won Cups did it with guys who fit either category at the beginning of their seasons? Not many.

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09-25-2003, 04:31 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by thestonedkoala

Biron is the just the odd-man out. If you look at his stats, they are pretty good for a goalie that played on a weak team. He got injured last year also.I believe he would be an upgrade over Aesbischer because he has played as a starter and on a weak team.
Biron is not on the market , and if the Avs want him it will coast more than a Tanguay or a Skoula .

The only viable option is Burke .

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09-25-2003, 05:52 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by mmbt
Yeah, but he didn't say a good goalie, he said Tugnutt.

Personally, I think Aebischer would be perfectly fine in the regular season. The danger isn't Aebischer/Suave failing in the regular season, it's whether or not they'll do the job in the playoffs.

One's been little more than a sometimes-excellent, sometimes-ordinary backup. The other is a complete rookie. How many teams who have won Cups did it with guys who fit either category at the beginning of their seasons? Not many.
fair appraisal and good points. Only PL knows what he wants to do

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Old
09-29-2003, 04:29 AM
  #43
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Aebischer is worth as much as Hurme was last year, and probably more. Hurme brought back two borderline prospects when Ottawa's hand was forced.

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09-29-2003, 06:52 AM
  #44
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I think the Avs will keep the Aebischer/Sauve tandem during the regular season and get Burke at the trade deadline for the playoffs.

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09-29-2003, 08:25 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
Johnson has been given many chances to be a starter for the Blues and hasn't proven.
Incorrect.

Johnson was given once chance as starter. He took advantage of that chance by playing well in the 2002 playoffs. He didn't falter until middle of last season where his game fell apart. 1 chance. Not many chances.

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09-29-2003, 08:29 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by flyrfan
I think the Avs will keep the Aebischer/Sauve tandem during the regular season and get Burke at the trade deadline for the playoffs.
burke for the playoffs? great idea...

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09-29-2003, 02:38 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kowloon
burke for the playoffs? great idea...
Yeah, if Burke doesn't get injured, he can be a great goalie.

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09-29-2003, 07:39 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Enoch


OT losses have no meaning. It is getting to OT that matters. THe current system is set up so teams will go all out for the win in OT b/c a loss is the same as a tie. Can you grasp this????
I am well aware of how points are calculated. Just because I disagree with you does not make me stupid. I do not agree that giving up a goal in overtime has no meaning. Giving up a goal in overtime means that you lost the chance to pick up an additional point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
His team left him hanging in OT b/c they wanted to get that extra point. If they played any remote style of defense, I'm sure most of those games would have ended up in a tie.
There is absolutely no way to know if those games would have ended in ties or losses. There is also no way to know if the Avs might have scored later in the overtime period had Aebischer not let in the goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
If you honestly think that Aebischer is worth nothing but a 6th round pick or 9th round pick, then there is no point in arguing with you. Basically, you think that Aebischer is a nobody and does not deserve to play in the NHL or has little chance of success if any in the NHL. At least that is what I'm assuming b/c a 6th - 9th round pick are people that have only a remote possiblity of cracking the lineups....This seems ridiculous to me considering the guy has 32w 25L 3ties 6SO 2.19 GAA .917 Sv. Pct. career stats. Regardless of the team, these are good numbers.
Actually, Aebischer was a 7th round pick. He made the roster. If we get a pick for him, perhaps that kid will make the roster too.

I have never said I think Aebischer is a nobody. I think he is a backup goalie. It is a giagantic leap between being a backup goalie and a starter. There has been absolutely no pressure on Aebischer during his first three years in the league. Being a starter on a contending team is a whole different level.

If it is any comfort to you, I do not see any goaltender in the league today who I would have wanted to trust the Avs to as a 1st year starter. However, there are at 20+ current NHL goalies that I would rather have in net for the Avs this year.

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