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The Teemu Selänne evaluation thread.

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01-22-2013, 07:09 AM
  #1
Merya
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The Teemu Selänne evaluation thread.

We all like to talk about him. Many of us love him, many detract him. Couple years ago I said he should be in top 75 of all time hockey players. Now I think he is among the top 50 best to ever play the game. We'll see how this short season goes and whether or not he'll gain more respect. I know many hold his playoff record against him, but well, those statbased conclusions are totally distorted.
In any case, I hope this thread will serve for most of Teemu Selänne related thoughts.

ps. I don't think he's very much behind Jagr anymore. And I don't think anyone should anymore elevate Kurri above Selänne as the best ever Finnish Player. (Teemu has better peak, better prime and better career)


Last edited by Merya: 01-22-2013 at 05:26 PM. Reason: poor choice of words
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01-22-2013, 08:19 AM
  #2
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
We all like to talk about him. Many of us love him, many detract him. Couple years ago I said he should be in top 75 of all time hockey players. Now I think he is among the top 50 best to ever play the game. We'll see how this short season goes and whether or not he'll gain more respect. I know many hold his playoff record against him, but well, those statbased conclusions are totally distorted.
In any case, I hope this thread will serve for most of Teemu Selänne related thoughts.

ps. I don't think he's very much behind Jagr anymore. And I don't think anyone with half a brain will anymore elevate Kurri above Selänne as the best ever Finnish Player. (Teemu has better peak, better prime and better career)
Not to mention international play where it's a landslide...there Teemu is one of the greatest ever.

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01-22-2013, 12:28 PM
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the edler
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one issue with Selänne outside his playoff record is of course his one dimensionality, he was awesome offensively but pretty incompetent in his own zone

Pavel Bure was a better player defensively than Selänne, and i'm not even saying that as a hater, because he was

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01-22-2013, 12:49 PM
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Pavel Bure was a better player defensively than Selänne
Well, that is an utter nonsense. (Then again I don't like much Bure, so I leave this for somebody else.)

Btw, is there not a "general" Teemu Selanne thread -already? I doubt Selanne needs a new thread everytime he scores, whether he is 42, 43 or 50 year old while doing that.

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01-22-2013, 01:47 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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A good start would be to find his place among RW's first...

I would say he's for sure behind:
Howe, Richard, Jagr, LaFleur, Bossy, Cook, and Conacher

I would say he's for sure ahead of:
Iginla, Bure, Broadbent, Hextall, St. Louis, Martinec, and Dye

Here are the guys that he's close to that requires a more in depth comparison:
Makarov, Geoffrion, Bathgate, Mikhailov, Kurri, Hull

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01-22-2013, 02:05 PM
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the edler
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Well, that is an utter nonsense.
how is it nonsense? describe how Selänne's defensive game was better than Bure's

for example Bure played regularly on the PK on all his teams his whole NHL career while Selänne never was a PK regular, i know that's only one part of the game and far from the whole story but at least it's an indication of some sort of defensive capability

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01-22-2013, 05:27 PM
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Merya
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Originally Posted by Slapshooter View Post

Btw, is there not a "general" Teemu Selanne thread -already? I doubt Selanne needs a new thread everytime he scores, whether he is 42, 43 or 50 year old while doing that.
I tried to search for one, but didn't get proper results.

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01-22-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
A good start would be to find his place among RW's first...

I would say he's for sure behind:
Howe, Richard, Jagr, LaFleur, Bossy, Cook, and Conacher

I would say he's for sure ahead of:
Iginla, Bure, Broadbent, Hextall, St. Louis, Martinec, and Dye

Here are the guys that he's close to that requires a more in depth comparison:
Makarov, Geoffrion, Bathgate, Mikhailov, Kurri, Hull
That's a good start. Selanne has certainly placed himself in contention for the top 10 RW of all time. It isn't as if this isn't a very difficult list to crack in the first place. RW is very deep.

It's hard to see where he is with Makarov and Mikhailov but the other names you mentioned in that group are Bathgate, Geoffrion, Kurri and Hull. Now, I think the OP is wrong in thinking no one with a brain would put Kurri ahead of Selanne anymore. That just isn't true. Kurri certainly has a case to be made. But let's look at everyone in that group:

Brett Hull - Similar to Selanne in a way. Both were explosive goal scorers. Both seemed to do better with a certain linemate but still managed well on their own. Neither was great defensively although Selanne at least appeared to care about that aspect more than Hull. Both aged well. The only thing with Hull is that it can be argued he peaked higher, he was far better in the postseason regardless of which team he was on and he influenced team success better than Selanne. Also, Hull is a player who is at least at the same level as Selanne on an international scale.

Geoffrion - Another explosive goal scorer. Didn't age as well as Selanne but at his best was still at least as good. Won the Hart in 1961. Led the NHL in goals twice. Won the Art Ross twice. Won 6 Cups and was a lethal playoff performer. Yes, being in a 6 team league playing with the powerful Montreal Canadiens would boost anyone's Cup wins but Geoffrion was a fixture on that team. He had at least 10 points in 8 straight playoff years which would mean about 20 points in the modern days with 4 playoff rounds. Geoffrion probably wins the Smythe in 1957 if it had existed.

Kurri - Yeah I don't think it is unanimous yet and may never be to put Selanne ahead of Kurri. There are certainly cases to be made for both players. Kurri is one of the greatest playoff performers in hockey history. Period. To have watched him you wouldn't just put him as "Gretzky's sidekick". Obviously that helped his totals but he was elite defensively, led the NHL in goals once, won 5 Cups in which he had at least 25 points in each of the runs and two other years where he reached the final and got 23 and 17 points. He also led the playoffs in goals 4 times and shares the single playoff season goal lead with Reggie Leach at 19.

Bathgate - From a career standpoint Bathgate has similarities to Selanne. Both held up great as superstars for a while on their own. Bathgate probably had a nicer consecutive run near the top however. He also won a Hart in 1959. Perhaps didn't age as well as Selanne although when you look at his totals in the original 6 era it still wasn't too bad in his 30s. Like Selanne his playoff record isn't great. It actually is more like Dionne's than Selanne's which hurts Bathgate. He did win a Cup with Toronto in 1964 and he was a key member. Either way, very close to Selanne career wise.


That is pretty much where I put Selanne. Either one of Hull, Kurri, Bathgate or Geoffrion have a case against him. Still not too shabby for Teemu, those are some gaudy names.

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01-22-2013, 05:40 PM
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Merya
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Edited Opening post for poor choice of words. Apologies.

As for international competition, I don't think there are many who match Selänne. After all, he is the leading Olympic scorer, and those were best vs best olympics. Koivu is actually one of the closer matches. I don't know how Hull's international showing would be better, but I'm open for arguments.


Last edited by Merya: 01-22-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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01-22-2013, 05:44 PM
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Selanne is the man.

That is all.

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01-22-2013, 07:50 PM
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i'll say this one thing about selanne and then slink away: i was impressed at him taking face-offs on the PP the other night in vancouver. won one clean and set up a goal right off the draw.

for all the flak i've given him over the years for being one dimensional, i am impressed by him still adding little things like this to his game at his age when modano, roenick, recchi, mogilny, blake, and all the other stars from the '88 draft have all been retired for at least a whole year.

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01-23-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Edited Opening post for poor choice of words. Apologies.

As for international competition, I don't think there are many who match Selänne. After all, he is the leading Olympic scorer, and those were best vs best olympics. Koivu is actually one of the closer matches. I don't know how Hull's international showing would be better, but I'm open for arguments.
Only with best on bests (Canada Cup, World Cup, Olympics)

Hull - 31 points in 27 games
Selanne - 37 points in 39 games

If you throw in the fact that Hull was the best forward for the winning Americans and an integral part of the two second place finishes (1991, 2002) then I think you'd have to place Hull at least at Selanne's level for international play. Personally as a Canadian I felt Hull was far more dangerous internationally.

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01-23-2013, 03:15 PM
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how is it nonsense? describe how Selänne's defensive game was better than Bure's

for example Bure played regularly on the PK on all his teams his whole NHL career while Selänne never was a PK regular, i know that's only one part of the game and far from the whole story but at least it's an indication of some sort of defensive capability
Many coaches used Bure on PK as he was the best breakaway cherry picker in the world and even more quicker/faster than Selanne. Bure’s sole purpose on PK was to harass opposite powerplay to make a mistake and allow Bure to run with the puck and score a short handed goal. There is nothing wrong with that; many one dimensional offensive players has played similar role on the PK (occasionally Selanne too), but it has little to do with player’s defensive abilities.

On even strength I have never see any adult professional player on a regular basis to float and cherry pick breakways as much as Bure, with the exception of 1994 playoffs when he was not that bad. That does not make Selanne a good defensive player at all, but Selanne does not stand out as especially poor defensive player compared to similar offensive wingers. Especially not since 2006. Selanne certainly did/does back check more often than Bure did.

As for other comparisons between the two, Selanne is a far better playmaker while Bure was only marginally better goal scorer. Both were physically tougher than their reputation is.

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01-23-2013, 03:55 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Many coaches used Bure on PK as he was the best breakaway cherry picker in the world and even more quicker/faster than Selanne. Bure’s sole purpose on PK was to harass opposite powerplay to make a mistake and allow Bure to run with the puck and score a short handed goal. There is nothing wrong with that; many one dimensional offensive players has played similar role on the PK (occasionally Selanne too), but it has little to do with player’s defensive abilities.

On even strength I have never see any adult professional player on a regular basis to float and cherry pick breakways as much as Bure, with the exception of 1994 playoffs when he was not that bad. That does not make Selanne a good defensive player at all, but Selanne does not stand out as especially poor defensive player compared to similar offensive wingers. Especially not since 2006. Selanne certainly did/does back check more often than Bure did.

As for other comparisons between the two, Selanne is a far better playmaker while Bure was only marginally better goal scorer. Both were physically tougher than their reputation is.
not that it makes a huge difference in our evaluation of bure's defensive acumen, is the ability to put pressure on the point men and to intercept cross-blue-line passes not a defensive skill? the mere threat of pavel stealing the puck from the points changed oppositions' PP game plans.

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01-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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not that it makes a huge difference in our evaluation of bure's defensive acumen, is the ability to put pressure on the point men and to intercept cross-blue-line passes not a defensive skill?
Sure, and if we go to semantics a good offense is a good defense. Whatever.

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01-23-2013, 04:26 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Sure, and if we go to semantics a good offense is a good defense. Whatever.
except that bure literally disrupted opposing power plays with his speed and anticipation. he couldn't shadow someone like claude lemieux did obviously, but he was excellent at neutralizing the opposition's point men on the PK.

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01-23-2013, 04:27 PM
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I think Selanne vs Kurri vs Brett Hull will be a great discussion if we ever get around to doing a top RWs of all time on this board.

The thing with Selanne is that if you really want to talk about how great he is as an older player, you also need to talk about how lost he was for several years in between his peak and late career resurgence.

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01-23-2013, 04:47 PM
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I think Selanne vs Kurri vs Brett Hull will be a great discussion if we ever get around to doing a top RWs of all time on this board.

The thing with Selanne is that if you really want to talk about how great he is as an older player, you also need to talk about how lost he was for several years in between his peak and late career resurgence.
I think that these past 7 seasons and a cup have more than made up for 3 years of serious knee problems. It's funny how these things work, some players get the benefit of the doubt because of their injuries and some are just viewed as negative.

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01-23-2013, 04:50 PM
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I think that these past 7 seasons and a cup have more than made up for 3 years of serious knee problems. It's funny how these things work, some players get the benefit of the doubt because of their injuries and some are just viewed as negative.
I think that players who miss games but play well on a per-game rate get (way too much) "what if" credit here. While players who don't play so well when they are playing correctly have their lowered play taken into account, whether it was injury-related or not.

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01-23-2013, 05:04 PM
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I think that players who miss games but play well on a per-game rate get (way too much) "what if" credit here. While players who don't play so well when they are playing correctly have their lowered play taken into account, whether it was injury-related or not.
Selanne was so desperate for a cup that he didn't want to sit out a season for his reconstructive surgery when he finally had a decent team around him. Stupid decision, but in my opinion we shouldn't rate Selanne any lower because he played. Does Chelios's last 7 years somehow lower his value? Should he be ranked higher had he retired earlier?

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01-23-2013, 05:05 PM
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Selanne was so desperate for a cup that he didn't want to sit out a season for his reconstructive surgery when he finally had a decent team around him. Stupid decision, but in my opinion we shouldn't rate Selanne any lower because he played. Does Chelios's last 7 years somehow lower his value? Should he be ranked higher had he retired earlier?
Nope. But I don't think they add much either. And neither do Selanne's lost years.

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01-23-2013, 05:43 PM
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Nope. But I don't think they add much either. And neither do Selanne's lost years.
If you consider 2001-2004 as his "lost" years, he might have given up 60 goals/ 100 pts... which would raise him from 18th all-time in points to perhaps as high as 11th. But I guess the same could be put forth for all Bure's lost years to knee injuries or Lindros or Cam Neely or Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux for that matter. The records books would look completely different if not for injuries...

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01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
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i'll say this one thing about selanne and then slink away: i was impressed at him taking face-offs on the PP the other night in vancouver. won one clean and set up a goal right off the draw.

for all the flak i've given him over the years for being one dimensional, i am impressed by him still adding little things like this to his game at his age when modano, roenick, recchi, mogilny, blake, and all the other stars from the '88 draft have all been retired for at least a whole year.
in fairness to Recchi, he was 2 years older than all those guys (should have been drafted in '86) and played longer than all of them.

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01-24-2013, 06:15 AM
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Nope. But I don't think they add much either. And neither do Selanne's lost years.
Games played > Games not played

A few weeks before the 2001 playoffs Selanne had surgery to remove loose ligament from his knee. He played the playoffs with broken wrist and a broken thumb. He couldn't even shoot the puck properly. We should call him a warrior, but instead we call him a choker.

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02-02-2013, 03:20 AM
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Merya
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Teemu Selänne now shares the 17th place in all time points. His 3rd pass point of the game was just magical. Here we have a (almost) 43 year old ex-goalscorer that opposing teams still doubleteam. And then he has learned to use to pull his shadows along him to make passes to basicly empty nets.

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