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Paul Coffey

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Old
03-07-2005, 10:06 PM
  #26
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o really cant look at +- as a measuring point ok. Then Bobby Orr was one dimensional as well ur sayin??? he's _120 somethin doesnt count cuz u could have put a rock on that Bruin team and it could have been +60??? wow

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03-07-2005, 10:08 PM
  #27
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An interesting phenomenon with Coffey is that those who never saw him play can just look at his ridiculous offensive output and declare with great certainty that he was terrible in his own end. Well, I saw him and I can tell you, that assumption is incorrect. Would I choose him over Langway with the puck in my end and 10 seconds on the clock?? No, I would not. However, to paint a picture of him as some kind of liability simply because he didn't top out at 28 points a year is pretty silly.

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03-07-2005, 10:27 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
An interesting phenomenon with Coffey is that those who never saw him play can just look at his ridiculous offensive output and declare with great certainty that he was terrible in his own end. Well, I saw him and I can tell you, that assumption is incorrect. Would I choose him over Langway with the puck in my end and 10 seconds on the clock?? No, I would not. However, to paint a picture of him as some kind of liability simply because he didn't top out at 28 points a year is pretty silly.
Well said. In big games I've seen him go down to block shots, play pretty chippy in front of his own net, and stick up for players on his team. Of coarse I've also seen him not take a hit and give up the puck in a 7-3 game but does that really matter. When push came to shove he was a great competitor and did what it took to win.

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03-07-2005, 10:36 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok
by the way Mothra u can have your 20 + defenseman ... Ill get a team full of Orr's and Coffeys and school your anyday :lol
Putting Orr and Coffey in the same paragraph should be a crime

I still say it speaks volumes that he was traded 3 times in what would be considered his prime......im not saying he isnt a HOF player, his numbers put him in that group...but he never ever played "phenomenol defensive hockey" like you say he did....and the teams that traded him did better without him

again.....he was so important to the Oilers that after they traded him they won the Cup...twice

With Pit he misses the last half of the playoffs when they win the first Cup...traded before the 2nd Cup

Kings....bounced in first round then traded Coffey during the next season, advance to Cup finals that very season

Detroit, best record in NHL 2 years in a row but cant win Cup....trade Coffey and then win the next 2 Cups

Thats 4 teams that traded him and not only did they not miss a beat...they were better in some cases

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03-07-2005, 10:37 PM
  #30
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The reason the teams that traded Coffey succeeded is because of a) the talent that was already there and b) the players they acquired. Coffey was a key part of those first three Oiler Cups, but face it, they were so strong that you could remove any player from that team, except for Gretzky, and they still win those Cups. The Oilers acquired Craig Simpson for Coffey. Simpson went on to score 56 goals that season, and tied for the playoff lead in scoring in 1990, during the Oilers final Cup run. The Coffey trade also gave Steve Smith a chance to display a better offensive dimension, and he responded with 55 points.

Pittsburgh acquired Rick Tocchet for Coffey. Tocchet scored 30 points in 19 regular season games, and was critical in the Penguins' Cup victory.

Finally, Detroit acquired Shanahan, the final piece of the puzzle in the quest for the Cup. It was Shanahan that put Detroit over the top with his size, strength, grit, leadership and high skill level.

If those three teams acquired junk for Coffey, then the arguement would hold water. But they acquired three core players who combined for six Cups and multiple 40 goal seasons.

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03-07-2005, 10:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok
o really cant look at +- as a measuring point ok. Then Bobby Orr was one dimensional as well ur sayin??? he's _120 somethin doesnt count cuz u could have put a rock on that Bruin team and it could have been +60??? wow
Everytime you mention Orr and Coffey together it makes it clear that you never saw #4 play

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03-07-2005, 10:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok
o really cant look at +- as a measuring point ok. Then Bobby Orr was one dimensional as well ur sayin??? he's _120 somethin doesnt count cuz u could have put a rock on that Bruin team and it could have been +60??? wow
What? No you have to look at the player and not just the statistics. But if you really want to know how statistics can point you in the wrong direction (+/- stat) look no further than Mr. Marek Malik who had the best +/- last year.

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Old
03-07-2005, 10:52 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
they were so strong that you could remove any player from that team, except for Gretzky, and they still win those Cups.
actually they won without 99 too....

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Pittsburgh acquired Rick Tocchet for Coffey. Tocchet scored 30 points in 19 regular season games, and was critical in the Penguins' Cup victory.
you must factor in that Mark Recchi left Pit in that trade...the loss of Recchi was huge seeing how he lead the Pens the years of their first Cup in scoring (66 hurt) and was 2nd in playoff scoring....so the addition of Tocchet at best offset that loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Finally, Detroit acquired Shanahan, the final piece of the puzzle in the quest for the Cup. It was Shanahan that put Detroit over the top with his size, strength, grit, leadership and high skill level.
"size, strength, grit, leadership"...also known as 4 things Coffey doesnt provide...part off my point

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03-07-2005, 11:53 PM
  #34
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"size, strength, grit, leadership"...also known as 4 things Coffey doesnt provide...part off my point





Speed, Finesse, Excitement, Vision is also known as 4 things Tocchet, Shanahan doesnt provide.....Part of my point.


Oilers won the cup without Coffey and Gretzky .... so by saying they could have won without Coffey is kinda like well >>>>>> also by saying Detroit won the cup bcz they got rid of Coffey is asolutely absurd. They won the cup bcz Yzerman learned what it took to win the cup ... bcz Federov actually started to care about the team instead of himself. Shanahan was just the icing on the cake.

Pittsburgh won the cup because everyone else stepped up knowing Coffey was injured. When Coffey was back there that team was way too complacent. They would have won the cup regardless if Coffey was playing or not. Lemieux was destined to win.

Really people who didnt watch Coffey on a daily basis play are mere insinuators and write down what they feel. Maybe you should go to edmonton and get an opinion on Coffey. One of the greatest bar none.

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03-08-2005, 12:23 AM
  #35
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Well Paul Coffee wasnt a one dimensial player as far as im concerned because to be a one dimensional player you need to be someone who NEVER played defense. Now Coffee wasnt exactly the best defensive defenseman like Harvey or Orr or Robinson or Bourque or hell even Stevens but his offensive abilities were incredible. Yes he did play in a league where bad teams scored 300 goals a year it seemed and yes he was on a great Oiler team then a great Pens team but still he holds almost all the offensive records for defenseman. Most goals in a season, most asissts in a season, most points in a season, best ppg average in a season, most total points the playoffs, etc. Yes if Orr had been healthy he wouldnt have any of these records but fact is those records and stats make him the second best offensive dman ever. The guy was a tremendous passer. Gretzky who is considered by many as the greatest passer ever actually said that Coffee was the best long passer he has ever seen. That really and I mean really helped NO 99 and later no 66. He started the rush, skated smoothely into the rush and many times would end up finishing the rush. He was great in regular time, great on the PP, and even was on the PK many times with Gretz and later with Mario scoring or setting up shorthanded goals.

Now he wasnt the best defensevily I agree but the fact that he was that good offensively and average defensevily make him one of the best ever IMO. Top 15 is ridiculous. Coffee is in the top 10.

1- Orr
2- Harvey
3- Bourque
4- Shore
5- Robinson
6- Coffee

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03-08-2005, 12:51 AM
  #36
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Coffey never gets any respect why is that? Ask me this: Name one d-man who will ever get 48 goals in a season? You cant name one. In fact if you take Coffey's stats from '86 he had 48 goals that year. He would have led the league by a wide margin in goals last year, as a defensman! Yes it was the 80s but come on 48 goals for a defensman? That is sickening!

Yes he played on good teams but hey so did Denis Potvin. So did Orr, and Doug Harvey. Does that take away from the contribution they made? No. Coffey would still be the fastest skater in the league today if he were in his prime. He was just that fast and it was all effortless. And the response that someone said he'd take 20 defenseman of all time over Coffey I'd like to see him name them all. In his generation only Bourque was a better d-man. Yes I'm remembering Chelios, Leetch and Stevens. Look at Coffey's first and second all-star selections and tell me if he wasnt great in his generation.

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Old
03-08-2005, 12:56 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
What's more effective defense? Grinding in the corner, fighting with another player for the puck while 2 more of his teammates skate in to fight it out for the puck, or skating away with the puck to score? Yeah, checking, grinding, positioning are all important aspects of defense, but they aren't the only aspects of defense. Possessing the puck and being on offense means that the other team isn't possessing the puck and being on offense.
Paul Coffey played the Soviet style of hockey very well and to great success, control the puck and take the attack to opponent.

"Offensive operations, often times, is the surest, if not the only means of defense"
-- George Washington (1799)

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03-08-2005, 01:08 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Paul Coffey played the Soviet style of hockey very well and to great success, control the puck and take the attack to opponent.

"Offensive operations, often times, is the surest, if not the only means of defense"
-- George Washington (1799)
David Puddy............

Exactly........well said........one time a reporter was interviewing Glen Sather who was the coach of those high flying Edmonton Oilers and the reporter asked Sather; "How are you going to stop the other teams from scoring against your own hockey club with the type of defence you have there in Edmonton?"....Sather responded with; "A Great Offence is the Best type of Defence that there is.".........and that's what ANY military leader will tell you.

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03-08-2005, 01:23 AM
  #39
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20 defenseman over Coffey!!!!! that guy must be on crack. I still can't beleive he'd say something so fanboyish. Rod Langway over Paul Coffey guys hahahahahahahahahhahahaha. Dude Paul could probably skate faster then Langway with one leg. And then make a nice long pass up the ice better then Langway blind. Thanks come again. next

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03-08-2005, 02:13 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok
20 defenseman over Coffey!!!!! that guy must be on crack. I still can't beleive he'd say something so fanboyish. Rod Langway over Paul Coffey guys hahahahahahahahahhahahaha. Dude Paul could probably skate faster then Langway with one leg. And then make a nice long pass up the ice better then Langway blind. Thanks come again. next
off the top of my head and only going on guys I actually saw....

Orr
Park
Salming
Potvin
Robinson
Savard
Howe
Lapointe
Bourque
Chelios
Blake
Lidstrom
Pronger
Leetch
Macinnis
Niedermayer
Stevens

side note.....not sure I take Langway over Coffey, depends on the makeup of the roster....but your total lack of respect and juvenile attacks on a HOF, 2 time Norris Trophy winner speaks volumes.....I am sure you never saw him play, much less half the guys I mentioned. Yes, I think Coffey is the most over-rated player in my lifetime....I still say he is a HOF player (in this thread).....you make it sound like Langway cant play....I guess that what we should expect from someone who clearly is looking at stats and not someone who has watched.

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03-08-2005, 02:19 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
off the top of my head and only going on guys I actually saw....

Orr
Park
Salming
Potvin
Robinson
Savard
Howe
Lapointe
Bourque
Chelios
Blake
Lidstrom
Pronger
Leetch
Macinnis
Niedermayer
Stevens

side note.....not sure I take Langway over Coffey, depends on the makeup of the roster....but your total lack of respect and juvenile attacks on a HOF, 2 time Norris Trophy winner speaks volumes.....I am sure you never saw him play, much less half the guys I mentioned. Yes, I think Coffey is the most over-rated player in my lifetime....I still say he is a HOF player (in this thread).....you make it sound like Langway cant play....I guess that what we should expect from someone who clearly is looking at stats and not someone who has watched.
Mothra............

You have Borje Salming at the #3 position?...........interesting.

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03-08-2005, 02:27 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
off the top of my head and only going on guys I actually saw....

Orr
Park
Salming
Potvin
Robinson
Savard
Howe
Lapointe
Bourque
Chelios
Blake
Lidstrom
Pronger
Leetch
Macinnis
Niedermayer
Stevens

side note.....not sure I take Langway over Coffey, depends on the makeup of the roster....but your total lack of respect and juvenile attacks on a HOF, 2 time Norris Trophy winner speaks volumes.....I am sure you never saw him play, much less half the guys I mentioned. Yes, I think Coffey is the most over-rated player in my lifetime....I still say he is a HOF player (in this thread).....you make it sound like Langway cant play....I guess that what we should expect from someone who clearly is looking at stats and not someone who has watched.
Salming, Savard, Lapointe, Pronger, Blake, Neithermayer and Leetch were no where near the player Coffee was.Lidstrom, Chelios and Stevens are close but as good as they were defensively they werent as good as Coffee was at his personal strenght offense. Bourque, Robinson, Potvin and Orr you have a point. Oh and Park too you may have a point because that guy was really underrated. You also left out Harvey and Shore. So to arrange your list of who was better then Coffee of the players you listed are.

1- Orr
2- Bourque
3- Potvin
4- Robinson
5- Park

After that he's still the best. If you wanna add Shore and Harvey then he's about the 8th best but still he's top 10 for sure any way you look at it.

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03-08-2005, 02:37 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
Mothra............

You have Borje Salming at the #3 position?...........interesting.
no....that was in no order...

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03-08-2005, 03:20 AM
  #44
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Coffey was decisive in the Pens run as well. It seems to be forgotten.

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03-08-2005, 05:29 AM
  #45
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Mothra: You are absolutely embarrasing yourself on here trying to justify your lame reasons for disliking Coffey. Stevens?? Mcinnis??? Leetch??? Niedermayer??? Pronger??? **** you even included Blake in the same sentence as Coffey???? dude i think your the one you didnt watch hockey when Coffey was skating circles around the guys you mentioned. why your still on here trying to make a point against a defenseman who even Bobby Orr himself calls the most gifted defenseman since him himself. I mean we would understand if it was just your opinion .. but your actually trying to come up with these facts out of your a**. :lol .


anyways here how it goes in terms of defenseman:

Orr
Bourque
Coffey
Robinson
Potvin

top 5 in the past 30 years.

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03-08-2005, 05:44 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Salming, Savard, Lapointe, Pronger, Blake, Neithermayer and Leetch were no where near the player Coffee was.Lidstrom, Chelios and Stevens are close but as good as they were defensively they werent as good as Coffee was at his personal strenght offense. Bourque, Robinson, Potvin and Orr you have a point. Oh and Park too you may have a point because that guy was really underrated. You also left out Harvey and Shore. So to arrange your list of who was better then Coffee of the players you listed are.

1- Orr
2- Bourque
3- Potvin
4- Robinson
5- Park

After that he's still the best. If you wanna add Shore and Harvey then he's about the 8th best but still he's top 10 for sure any way you look at it.
I would put Red Kelly ahead of him too but thats it.

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03-08-2005, 09:38 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Coffey was decisive in the Pens run as well. It seems to be forgotten.
How is that? He missed the last 2 rounds of their first Cup and was traded before the 2nd......how is that decisive?

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03-08-2005, 10:08 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok
Mothra: You are absolutely embarrasing yourself on here trying to justify your lame reasons for disliking Coffey. Stevens?? Mcinnis??? Leetch??? Niedermayer??? Pronger??? **** you even included Blake in the same sentence as Coffey???? dude i think your the one you didnt watch hockey when Coffey was skating circles around the guys you mentioned. why your still on here trying to make a point against a defenseman who even Bobby Orr himself calls the most gifted defenseman since him himself. I mean we would understand if it was just your opinion .. but your actually trying to come up with these facts out of your a**. :lol .
Not sure whats so funny......between Stevens, MacInnis, Leetch, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake we have 6 Norris Trophies, 3 Conn Smythe's, and 1 Hart. Yes, I like D who actually play D and can hit. Of the above Leetch is the only one that wasnt/isnt at the very least very good in his own end....he was average (Coffey was very poor).

show me where Bobby Orr says this....lets have some link support on this claim....anything other is just you running your mouth. Maybe he did say it.....but I never saw that...and I am not taking your word for it

what "facts" am I making up? You are totally lost...I understand you dont agree...and thats cool.....but again, what facts are made up....all I pointed out was how he was traded, traded, and traded again from teams that didnt seem to miss him at all......and those teams did at least as good if not better without him

if you want to talk about making things up....how about this jewel of yours...you said one of the reasons Detroit finally started to win was..."Federov actually started to care about the team instead of himself"....in case you didnt realize it he won 2 Selke's, a Hart, and a Pearson before they won the Cups. How does a guy who only cares about himself win the best defensive forward trophy 2X, the leagues MVP, and the Most Outstanding player voted by his peers if he is the selfish player you claim him to be

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03-08-2005, 05:34 PM
  #49
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http://www.oilersheritage.com/memori...aulcoffey.html Anytime a player is compared directly to Bobby Orr it means that that player must be very talented. Mothra, you're probably right, it must have been hard for Coffey to play defense since he he was busy putting the puck in the other teams net so often.

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03-08-2005, 07:45 PM
  #50
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I can't believe there is people in here that are trying to take away from Coffee. Coffee in my books is second all time next to orr. Any defencemen who scores 48 goals and 90 assits in one season says enough. People can say he wasn't the best defencively which is debateable. But one thing is for certain. There would be no trap today that would contain Coffee's game in his prime. He was fast as lightning and his vision and passing was second to none. Try and find one player in todays game that you could compare to Coffey and you won't find one. I think his records are going to be arround for a very long time.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Paul Coffey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Larry Robinson
5. Denis Potvin

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