HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Columbus Blue Jackets
Notices

What??? Luongo to Columbus??? Say it ain't so!!! (Rumor)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #26
Iron Balls McGinty
Registered User
 
Iron Balls McGinty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sec. 203/Worthington
Country: United States
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
Last year, I said on here that I'd be OK with trading for Luongo if it was for something like Mason + Methot.

Right now, I'd prefer to let Bob have a chance, but I'd probably pull the trigger if they were OK with Mason + Umberger. Umberger would have to waive is no-trade clause (the current hold up in the purported deal ?). Umberger's contract is the only one that would help to offset the monster one that would come with Luongo. It would be funny to see Kessler and Umberger together again.

I wouldn't even do the Brassard-Mason deal as that is alot of salary coming our way. I don't see Vancouver wanting a defenseman like Wiz, which would be about the only other option to balance salary somewhat. Under no circumstances, would I want Jenner included in the deal.

All that said, I think the only reason Gillis 'leaked' this deal was to try and force Toronto's hand. Personally, I hope it backfires and Gillis is left with both Schneider and Luongo for next season.
Umberger and Kesler on the same team is not going to happen.

Iron Balls McGinty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 11:40 AM
  #27
Nanabijou
Playoffs back at Nat
 
Nanabijou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,514
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Balls McGinty View Post
Umberger and Kesler on the same team is not going to happen.
Wouldn't be the first time that two players who disliked each other ended up on the same team.

Nanabijou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 11:50 AM
  #28
CrazyCanucks
Registered User
 
CrazyCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: India
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Hes got a No Trade clause. He wont waive it to come to a non contender this late in his career. Hes 33, he wants to to win now or in the near future. Not sure what the plan is in CBJ land, but I dont think that it would be to a team like Columbus. Gilles can say what he wants to the media, but the hammer is with Lu.

Gilles has backed himself into a corner big time. He should have taken the Kadri/Bozak deal when it was on the table.

CrazyCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:16 PM
  #29
Iron Balls McGinty
Registered User
 
Iron Balls McGinty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sec. 203/Worthington
Country: United States
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanucks View Post
Hes got a No Trade clause. He wont waive it to come to a non contender this late in his career. Hes 33, he wants to to win now or in the near future. Not sure what the plan is in CBJ land, but I dont think that it would be to a team like Columbus. Gilles can say what he wants to the media, but the hammer is with Lu.

Gilles has backed himself into a corner big time. He should have taken the Kadri/Bozak deal when it was on the table.
I agree. If the CBJ were a more established playoff contender, I could see him possibly agreeing to come here. Since we haven't established that yet, the only way I could see him coming here is if he wanted to coast and milk the remainder of his contract. The CBJ definitely doesn't want that.

It may take a year or two to establish but the CBJ need to show they are serious contenders before they can get a big star with a no trade clause.

Iron Balls McGinty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:16 PM
  #30
GrimReeper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 259
vCash: 500
We have some serious cliff jumpers here. We have had 2 games and only a week of preseason and we're offering our only consistent 20+ goal scorer as a contract dump? I didn't know we had such organizational depth at forward to trade our only proven (besides Prospal) forward for an overpaid backup goaltender.

Hopefully it's just an issue of getting his legs back.

GrimReeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:41 PM
  #31
Nanabijou
Playoffs back at Nat
 
Nanabijou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,514
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanucks View Post
Hes got a No Trade clause. He wont waive it to come to a non contender this late in his career. Hes 33, he wants to to win now or in the near future. Not sure what the plan is in CBJ land, but I dont think that it would be to a team like Columbus. Gilles can say what he wants to the media, but the hammer is with Lu.

Gilles has backed himself into a corner big time. He should have taken the Kadri/Bozak deal when it was on the table.
So Toronto and Florida are considered cup contenders?

Nanabijou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:52 PM
  #32
Crede777
Deputized
 
Crede777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 7,102
vCash: 500
It's important to have 2 solid starting goaltenders in this condensed season. So I doubt anybody would "carry the load" of 30+ games right now. Bob would likely still get 20+ starts even if Luongo were acquired.

It would stink for him going forward though. Play well in Philly. They go out and get Bryzgalov. Play worse. Go to Columbus. Play well in Columbus. They go out and get Luongo...

My personal completely uninformed guess would have been Detroit. Have him and Howard share time. They called up McCollum from the AHL but it's no secret he's just there in case of emergency. The team could use a wake-up and they are thin at goalie.

Crede777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:53 PM
  #33
bester vaive
Fear the Titan!
 
bester vaive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 254
vCash: 500
Agree that we don't need/want Luongo here, especially if Jenner is involved. Only scenario I want Luongo passing through Columbus is if it's part of a three-way deal that sends him somewhere for a forward with offensive prowess...Heck, I'm even more interested in seeing Mason play for us this year than Luongo. Steve is playing for his next contract (here or elsewhere), so we should see the best he has to offer in goal.

bester vaive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 12:56 PM
  #34
Iron Balls McGinty
Registered User
 
Iron Balls McGinty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sec. 203/Worthington
Country: United States
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
So Toronto and Florida are considered cup contenders?
Well, he can ride off into the sunset in Florida. He established his career there and they did win their division last year.

According the the hockey world, Toronto is the center of the hockey universe and everyone wants to play there.

Iron Balls McGinty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 01:33 PM
  #35
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,443
vCash: 500
This is the horror story known as Luongo's contract. He's essentially untradable, except perhaps for another team's nightmare contract.

http://capgeek.com/player/683

If Vancouver were to buy him out after this season using the traditional method, then this would be what they would be facing. 2030-31 cap year ramifications. Oh my.

http://capgeek.com/buyout-calculator/?player_id=683

This guy has "amnesty buy out" written all over him. He stands a good chance of being a free agent after June 15, 2013.

For anyone not familiar with capgeek.com, it's an easy to use site and a great source in the salary cap era.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 01-23-2013 at 01:40 PM.
Cyclones Rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 01:34 PM
  #36
Skraut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Enter city here
Posts: 10,344
vCash: 500
1/4th of the draft picks the Blue Jackets have made since 2010 have been used to draft goaltenders:

Mathieu Corbeil-Theriault
Martin Ouellette
Anton Forsberg
Oscar Dansk
Joonas Korpisalo

Combine that with the players still in the system such as York, and this isn't a team that goes out and trades for a goaltender with a 10 year contract.

And this completely ignores the fact that Louongo would never waive his NTC to come here.


Last edited by Skraut: 01-23-2013 at 01:55 PM. Reason: corrections
Skraut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 01:54 PM
  #37
CrazyCanucks
Registered User
 
CrazyCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: India
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
So Toronto and Florida are considered cup contenders?
Florida is home for him, so thats why they would even be considered.

Toronto different story. Yes they are not Cup contenders, but it is Toronto. You win a Cup there you would be considered god. They would make the playoffs with him there for sure. It would actually be less pressure for Lu to play in Toronto than here in Vancouver. This town is a killer for goalies. Watch once Schneider falls out of favour here, same thing will happen. It is a goalie graveyard for sure. I can guarantee you this, there would have been no way that Mason would have survived 3 losing seasons here in Vancouver if he played that way here. The media and fans after year one would have called for Gilles to find something else.

There is no way Mason plays for Van IF they swap goalies.

CrazyCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 02:09 PM
  #38
blahblah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanucks View Post
Hes got a No Trade clause. He wont waive it to come to a non contender this late in his career. Hes 33, he wants to to win now or in the near future.
So he'll go to Toronto? Many I've got to remember these guys are old as dirt at 33. He might only have 5 or 6 years left.

You've done an amazing job of reading into the thoughts of Luongo. It's a gift you got there. Mind reading. Not to mention the mind of a goal tender. Well done.

Feel free to point and laugh at us at the point that he declines to come to the CBJ. Until then, I've really got no interest in hearing about how unattractive our franchise is from yet another fan. The reality is that he is going to have a very limited amount of options if he has any interest in getting out of Vancouver. There is no guarantee that he will sniff a true contender.

Gillis knows that his hands are fairly tied on this deal. So do most other teams. However, there are a small handful of teams that might be desperate enough for his services, we'll see how it goes.

Frankly I would giggle to see Vancouver stuck with that contract going into free agency.


Last edited by blahblah: 01-23-2013 at 02:17 PM.
blahblah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 02:15 PM
  #39
CrazyCanucks
Registered User
 
CrazyCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: India
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
This is the horror story known as Luongo's contract. He's essentially untradable, except perhaps for another team's nightmare contract.

http://capgeek.com/player/683

If Vancouver were to buy him out after this season using the traditional method, then this would be what they would be facing. 2030-31 cap year ramifications. Oh my.

http://capgeek.com/buyout-calculator/?player_id=683

This guy has "amnesty buy out" written all over him. He stands a good chance of being a free agent after June 15, 2013.

For anyone not familiar with capgeek.com, it's an easy to use site and a great source in the salary cap era.
No way Vancouver buys him out even though they could afford to do it. Why would they buy him out? You lose assets coming back if you do that. That would be the dumbest move by the Canucks. Bryz will get bought out, but not Lu Hes a top goalie still on a lot of teams including the CBJ. Not sure why you would think that he would get bought out. He would get waived before getting bought out, and neither one will happen at all. If either one happens, then I will cancel my ticket package with the Canucks, and someone else on the 7000 person wait list will get my spot.
The only way that buying out Luongo makes sense is if he has no trade value whatsoever. As in, none. As in, the Canucks offered him up to the entire NHL for a 9th round draft pick and no one took them up on it, even though the draft doesn’t even have a 9th round anymore.

The Cap hit is 5.33 million, and lets agree that he will not even see the last 3 years. His contract is not as bad as you think with this new CBA. He will be placed on LTIR so the team that has him does not get penalized for it on the cap hit. That is the loophole Gary Bettman forgot to close on these owners. Also, you can bet there is going to be a new commish, and who knows what he might negotiate into the CBA regarding these long deals. All of these guys who signed the long deals will be on LTIR before they retire. There's your loophole out of the contract

Last 2 paragraphs: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...to-luongo.html
Quote:
I wasn't really tuned into the outside world today, but heard people were wondering if it made more sense for Vancouver to buy out Luongo. These figures make it seem non-sensical. First of all, with the opt-out clauses attached to the length of the new CBA, there's no guarantee the rules will be the same by the time the penalties are scheduled to take effect.

Second, there may just be a loophole. From what I understand, Long-Term Injury Reserve still exists. (For example, it allows Chris Pronger to come off the Philadelphia cap while he recovers from concussions).

God forbid Luongo (or anyone else) goes through that. But he will be 40 in the summer of 2019. Who knows what happens to a goalie's body by then? Maybe he's had enough and is battling some nagging groin or hip or knee problem. He goes on LTIR, still gets paid and neither Toronto nor Vancouver gets any kind of penalty.

CrazyCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 02:35 PM
  #40
CrazyCanucks
Registered User
 
CrazyCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: India
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
So he'll go to Toronto? Many I've got to remember these guys are old as dirt at 33. He might only have 5 or 6 years left.

You've done an amazing job of reading into the thoughts of Luongo. It's a gift you got there. Mind reading. Not to mention the mind of a goal tender. Well done.

Feel free to point and laugh at us at the point that he declines to come to the CBJ. Until then, I've really got no interest in hearing about how unattractive our franchise is from yet another fan. The reality is that he is going to have a very limited amount of options if he has any interest in getting out of Vancouver. There is no guarantee that he will sniff a true contender.

Gillis knows that his hands are fairly tied on this deal. So do most other teams. However, there are a small handful of teams that might be desperate enough for his services, we'll see how it goes.

Frankly I would giggle to see Vancouver stuck with that contract going into free agency.
I wasnt pointing and laughing at the CBJ. It could have been NYI, same thing. It was more of what Lu is going to do. Hes 34 now, and only has a few years left to win a cup. So his window is 4-5 years or so. Would you waive your no trade to go to a team that is clearly in rebuild mode after getting to Game 7 just 2 years ago? You dont have that time anymore.

If Vancouver doesnt get good anything for Lu, then trade CS instead. You know what you have in Lu and you might get more for CS instead. He hasnt been run out of town by the fans or media, or the team. He isnt sitting at home when he could have.
The Canucks will always be a cap team. And they singed that deal 3 years ago becuase they wanted to keep him long term.

CrazyCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 02:36 PM
  #41
cbjbluejackets61
This is neat!
 
cbjbluejackets61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Columbus
Country: United States
Posts: 222
vCash: 500
God no... slowly walk away from this. before we make a decision we regret.

cbjbluejackets61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 03:02 PM
  #42
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 17,039
vCash: 500
I'm trusting on Davidson with this one.

Meaning no thanks.

InjuredChoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 03:25 PM
  #43
blahblah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanucks View Post
I wasnt pointing and laughing at the CBJ. It could have been NYI, same thing. It was more of what Lu is going to do. Hes 34 now, and only has a few years left to win a cup. So his window is 4-5 years or so. Would you waive your no trade to go to a team that is clearly in rebuild mode after getting to Game 7 just 2 years ago? You dont have that time anymore.
So now you are comparing us to the NYI's (or putting us on the same level)? You really know how to push home your point while making friends in the process. With the defense we have assembled, I would say that stating we are in "rebuild mode" is kind of silly. For not pointing and laughing you are doing a great job of looking down on this franchise.

We aren't ready for a Cup run, but we are actually in better shape than what the fans of the league makes us out to be. We may not have your group of forwards, but there are bigger messes in the West than us.

As far as Luongo goes, you might be right. Having said that, it's quite possible you are dead wrong. You already illustrated that going home to Florida is OK. Toronto is probably further away than we are, however you seem to think he would be ok going there. By your own admission there are things that he might value more than winning a Cup before he retires.

You still never addressed the main point, there are few Cup contenders that will have any interest in Luongo. For example, good luck having Detroit spend more than 10 dollars on a goal tender. Columbus wouldn't be his first choice, but out of the teams that might make a legit offers we could end up being more attractive than you think. Obviously he could just sit on your roster and force a buy out. That would make me laugh so hard. He doesn't have to even provide his 5 team list this off season or next. He can wait until 2018. Talk about an amusing way to force your way into a new contract with the team of your choice. Great way to stick it to an owner after the lock out.

blahblah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 03:45 PM
  #44
cbjfaninmo
I know nut-ting
 
cbjfaninmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lake Ozark, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I'm trusting on Davidson with this one.

Meaning no thanks.
Howson: "Hey, JD how about trading for Rober..."

JD: "NO!, now go back to your corner"

cbjfaninmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 03:51 PM
  #45
CrazyCanucks
Registered User
 
CrazyCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: India
Posts: 2,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
So now you are comparing us to the NYI's (or putting us on the same level)? You really know how to push home your point while making friends in the process. With the defense we have assembled, I would say that stating we are in "rebuild mode" is kind of silly. For not pointing and laughing you are doing a great job of looking down on this franchise.

We aren't ready for a Cup run, but we are actually in better shape than what the fans of the league makes us out to be. We may not have your group of forwards, but there are bigger messes in the West than us.

As far as Luongo goes, you might be right. Having said that, it's quite possible you are dead wrong. You already illustrated that going home to Florida is OK. Toronto is probably further away than we are, however you seem to think he would be ok going there. By your own admission there are things that he might value more than winning a Cup before he retires.

You still never addressed the main point, there are few Cup contenders that will have any interest in Luongo. For example, good luck having Detroit spend more than 10 dollars on a goal tender. Columbus wouldn't be his first choice, but out of the teams that might make a legit offers we could end up being more attractive than you think. Obviously he could just sit on your roster and force a buy out. That would make me laugh so hard. He doesn't have to even provide his 5 team list this off season or next. He can wait until 2018. Talk about an amusing way to force your way into a new contract with the team of your choice. Great way to stick it to an owner after the lock out.
Ok your right I shouldnt have said same thing. with the NYI. I do like the CBJ and would like tyhem to do better in all areas. JD will finally bring some professionalism that is missing/needed. Good hire, good fans who have had 2 ****** GM's to put up with.
But my point was Lu has the hammer in deciding where to go. If Gilles and Howson make a deal, its not done without Lu's approval anyways.

By going to Toronto I was say the pressure might actually be less than here in Vancouver for Lu to win a cup, so he might actually fare better, even though he would be in teh eye of the storm in Toronto. He has already played in a canadian city, so he would be used to teh attention if he were to go to TO. He is a goalie, and goalies and Vancouver have had a rough ride the last couple of decades. You though Philly was bad on thier goalies? Even Burke said it was a goalie graveyard and that was when he was still the Nucks GM.
Florida is his home, so that is something noone could compete with. Philly might go this route if they tire of Bryz. Other teams in teh mix at one point were the the Oilers (all young kids and they need a G) and the Hawks as they need a G as well. So yes the cup contenders are low, but its up to Lu where he is going to go, not Gilles.

Noone said they have to trade him in either camp. It was the development of CS that made it so. They named him the #1 starter, not CS and not Lu. The team made this mess now they have to clean it up by trading Lu.

The owners could actually bury Lu and his contract in the minors if they choose to do so. They can afford it, but that would be a low move. The Canucks will not buy hiom out, it doesnt make sense for the team to do so when he is a viable asset still. Gilles is asking for too much, and is waiting it out till he gets another offer. Its no different than the Nash situation in that regards. But obv its not the same given the fact that its the team that wants this route not the player like Nash did.

Forget about what is happeneing with all the specualtion, what would be a fair trade between the 2 teams in your opinion if they were to make a deal?


Last edited by CrazyCanucks: 01-23-2013 at 04:00 PM.
CrazyCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:03 PM
  #46
CBJBrassard16
Sergei BobTrollsky
 
CBJBrassard16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12,652
vCash: 500
No thank you. He wouldnt waive here anyway

CBJBrassard16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:03 PM
  #47
Viqsi
carrying the flag
 
Viqsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Scary Internet
Country: United States
Posts: 20,384
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Viqsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbjfaninmo View Post
Howson: "Hey, JD how about trading for Rober..."

JD: "NO!, now go back to your corner"
Y'know, someday I fully expect that the "Howson" that some people see here is going to be cornered by a bunch of fans, and folks will abruptly realize it's not actually the real Scott Howson, and they'll pull off this mask and reveal...
"Old Man MacLean!"
"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you pesky kids!"

yep, let's just kick that particular scapegoating target upstairs

__________________
Remember - when you're a hockey fan, it's not "reckless driving", it's "good forechecking".
"Viqsi, you are our sweet humanist..." --mt-svk on the CBJ boards

Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
Viqsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #48
Viqsi
carrying the flag
 
Viqsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Scary Internet
Country: United States
Posts: 20,384
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Viqsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanucks View Post
The owners could actually bury Lu and his contract in the minors if they choose to do so. They can afford it, but that would be a low move.
It also wouldn't exactly save much on the cap under the new CBA.

Viqsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:12 PM
  #49
RDriesenUD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
1/4th of the draft picks the Blue Jackets have made since 2010 have been used to draft goaltenders:

Mathieu Corbeil-Theriault
Martin Ouellette
Anton Forsberg
Oscar Dansk
Joonas Korpisalo

Combine that with the players still in the system such as York, and this isn't a team that goes out and trades for a goaltender with a 10 year contract.

And this completely ignores the fact that Louongo would never waive his NTC to come here.
Yep. Good post.

RDriesenUD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:16 PM
  #50
Xoggz22
Registered User
 
Xoggz22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 4,201
vCash: 500
Everything from Davidson has been about building ("brick by brick", "Love having 3 first rounders", We're going to get younger"). Put Luongo in a sentence with "building" and it doesn't fit. I really like him but he isn't a fit in Columbus. We want to build a long term strong franchise that can compete for the cup and consistently make the playoffs. We're a couple years from that and that's right about the time Luongo finishes his usefulness.

Not a chance this is on the table in Columbus unless Vancouver is offering up 1st round picks to take him (not saying he's got no value but for Columbus to do this...he's got no value to us)

Xoggz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.