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Official All Time Draft #3 Thread.

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Old
06-01-2005, 08:20 AM
  #1351
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
I can give you 3 sources that have him at 6'1". I used Total Hockey as my main source, as it's the only single source that has most of the players taken in the draft. Anyway size is not your teams problem.

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06-02-2005, 01:49 AM
  #1352
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my siister bf is 6'1 and eddie towers over him

6 '3 sounds about right

my team has no problems u hang with fraser too much

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06-02-2005, 08:55 AM
  #1353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
my siister bf is 6'1 and eddie towers over him
So you have put them back to back before in order to judge how tall each of them are?

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06-02-2005, 11:17 AM
  #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
my team has no problems u hang with fraser too much
Since through 3 drafts you still haven't put together a checking line, I'm not really sure if you could see a problem if it bit you.

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Old
06-02-2005, 11:35 PM
  #1355
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Offensive Stats

I've put together some team-by-team statistics for the results of the last draft.
Please note that these numbers only take into account offense, and only take into account time spent in the NHL. (If you have a lot of players who never played in the NHL, sorry, but these numbers will undervalue your team).
I am using adjusted-for-era statistics, so that nobody is rewarded or penalized for playing in a certain time period.

Total Points
1 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 23,579 6,993 10,237 17,230
2 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 21,290 6,498 10,075 16,573
3 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 21,847 6,269 9,714 15,983
4 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 19,774 5,396 9,062 14,458
5 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 17,315 5,953 8,361 14,314
6 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 20,582 5,221 9,071 14,292
7 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 18,442 5,355 8,449 13,805
8 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 20,792 5,663 7,896 13,559
9 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 18,101 5,304 7,914 13,218
10 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 19,604 5,188 8,006 13,194
11 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 19,728 4,997 7,619 12,617
12 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 16,227 5,093 7,497 12,590
13 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 18,305 4,538 6,865 11,403
14 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 15,198 4,412 6,692 11,104
15 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 15,367 3,733 5,641 9,375

Highest Points Per Game
1 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 0.83
2 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 0.78
2 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 0.78
4 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 0.75
5 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 0.73
5 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 0.73
5 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 0.73
5 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 0.73
5 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 0.73
10 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 0.69
11 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 0.67
12 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 0.65
13 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 0.64
14 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 0.62
15 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 0.61

Most 100 Point Seasons
1 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 28
2 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 22
2 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 22
2 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 22
5 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 19
6 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 13
7 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 12
7 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 12
9 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 10
10 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 9
10 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 9
12 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 8
13 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 7
14 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 5
15 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 4

Highest Peak Value
(Peak value is the average points scored during a players best three seasons, which shows how dominant they were in their primes; I average the Peak Value of every player on each team)

1 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 80.8
2 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 80.6
3 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 79.6
4 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 77.0
5 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 76.7
6 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 75.9
7 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 75.5
8 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 75.3
9 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 74.0
10 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 72.9
11 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 71.3
12 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 69.6
13 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 66.7
14 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 66.4
15 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 62.6



Highest Plus/Minus
Team GP PM
1 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 18,432 3,768
2 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 13,699 2,578
3 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 16,510 2,333
4 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 16,625 2,024
5 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 11,457 1,985
6 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 16,494 1,768
7 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 12,363 1,635
8 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 12,820 1,492
9 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 13,469 1,407
10 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 8,518 1,256
11 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 9,048 1,080
12 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 8,369 925
13 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 4,421 815
14 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 6,566 755
15 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 12,649 66



-------

There are a lot of things this analysis can't tell us (defense, goaltending, non-NHL players). But I think it at least puts us in the ballpark as to how good a team's offense is.

Trivia: the highest-scoring undrafted players are Pierre Turgeon (1,293 total points), Joe Mullen (941) and Brian Bellows (916). The most dominant scorers not drafted are Pavol Demitra (100.7 points on average during his 3 best seasons), Alexei Yashin (98.6) and Pierre Turgeon (98.2).

Hope this was interesting. Thanks BM67 for giving me the list of rosters.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-05-2005 at 06:49 PM.
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Old
06-03-2005, 12:53 AM
  #1356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
So you have put them back to back before in order to judge how tall each of them are?
you can come when we do it and take your measuring stick

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Old
06-03-2005, 01:02 AM
  #1357
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Hockey Outsider, thanks for that information, it isn't a perfect list as you admit yourself. The main flaws have to be that it looks at the players stats on their own. You have players that well were in large parts products of their teams and their linemates, or at least had their point totals significantly increased due to the linemates. For recent examples all you have to look at is players such as Stevens in Pitsburgh. Great player don't get me wrong, but if he isn't riding shotgun for Lemieux the totals significantly drop.

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Old
06-05-2005, 08:50 AM
  #1358
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Total Points

Totalling the players Peak Value years would be a better indicator. Gretzky/Lemieux, Orr/Bourque are completely different comparisons on career levels, than on on-ice impact at their best.

Most 100 Point Seasons

Same goes here as for Total Points. You only get to put 1 Gretzky on the ice, so counting his multiple 100 point seasons isn't important. Is 20 100 point seasons by 4 players really better than 12 by 6 players?

Highest Plus/Minus
Team GP PM
1 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 18,432 3,768
2 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 13,699 2,578
3 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 16,510 2,333
4 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 16,625 2,024
5 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 11,457 1,985
6 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 16,494 1,768
7 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 12,363 1,635
8 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 12,820 1,492
9 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 13,469 1,407
10 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 8,518 1,256
11 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 9,048 1,080
12 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 8,369 925
13 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 4,421 815
14 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 6,566 755
15 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 12,649 66

Is this also an adjusted stat?

One thing that stands out to me is my teams low games played total. Dividing +/- by games played I rank only behind Spitfire_11 and Evil Sather.

I have to add that though this is additional info in the arsenal, it really isn't much use overall, since it was only tracked after 67. You only have +/- for a small fraction of Gordie Howe's career and none of Rocket Richard's.

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06-05-2005, 02:44 PM
  #1359
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NHL career stats of drafted goalies comparing regular season to playoffs.

Player - RSGP - POGP - RSW - POW - RSW% - POW% - Dif - RSGAA - POGAA - Dif Cups
Sawchuck - 972 _ 106 _ 446 _ 54 _ .560 _ .529 _ -.031 _ 2.51 _ 2.54 _ +.03 _ 4
Richter - 666 _ 76 _ 301 _ 41 _ .534 _ .554 _ +.020 _ 2.89 _ 2.68 _ -.21 _ 1
McLean 612 _ 68 _ 245 _ 34 _ .485 _ .500 _ +.015 _ 3.26 _ 2.84 _ -.42 _ 0
Hall - 906 _ 115 _ 407 _ 49 _ .545 _ .430 _ -.115 _ 2.49 _ 2.78 _ +.29 _ 1
Fuhr - 868 _ 150 _ 403 _ 92 _ .567 _ .648 _ +.081 _ 3.38 _ 2.92 _ -.46 _ 4/5
Osgood 568 _ 87 _ 305 _ 45 _ .617 _ .549 _ -.068 _ 2.44 _ 2.24 _ -.20 _ 2
Belfour - 856 _ 161 _ 435 _ 88 _ .593 _ .564 _ -.029 _ 2.43 _ 2.17 _ -.26 _ 1
Esposito - 886 _ 99 _ 423 _ 45 _ .566 _ .459 _ -.107 _ 2.92 _ 3.07 _ +.15 _ 0/1
Connell 417 _ 21 _ 193 _ 8 _ .544 _ .571 _ +.027 _ 1.91 _ 1.19 _ -.72 _ 2
Brimsek 514 _ 68 _ 252 _ 32 _ .568 _ .471 _ -.097 _ 2.70 _ 2.54 _ -.16 _ 2
Worsley 861 _ 70 _ 335 _ 40 _ .490 _ .606 _ +.116 _ 2.88 _ 2.78 _ -.10 _ 4
Worters - 484 _ 11 _ 171 _ 3 _ .440 _ .364 _ -.076 _ 2.27 _ 2.09 _ -.18 _ 0
Khabibulin 476 _ 57 _ 209 _ 31 _ .524 _ .554 _ +.030 _ 2.61 _ 2.23 _ -.38 _ 1
Kolzig 544 _ 45 _ 234 _ 20 _ .514 _ .455 _ -.059 _ 2.56 _ 2.14 _ -.42 _ 0
Plante - 837 _ 112 _ 435 _ 71 _ .614 _ .664 _ +.050 _ 2.38 _ 2.14 _ -.24 _ 6
Bower - 552 _ 74 _ 250 _ 35 _ .551 _ .507 _ -.044 _ 2.51 _ 2.47 _ -.04 _ 4
Gardiner 316 _ 21 _ 112 _ 12 _ .437 _ .643 _ +.206 _ 2.02 _ 1.43 _ -.59 _ 1
Parent - 608 _ 71 _ 271 _ 38 _ .562 _ .535 _ -.027 _ 2.55 _ 2.43 _ -.12 _ 2
Vachon 795 _ 48 _ 355 _ 23 _ .541 _ .500 _ -.041 _ 2.99 _ 2.77 _ -.22 _ 3
Roy - 1029 _ 247 _ 551 _ 151 _ .618 _ .616 _ -.002 _ 2.54 _ 2.30 _ -.24 _ 4
Giacomin 610 _ 65 _ 289 _ 29 _ .568 _ .453 _ -.115 _ 2.82 _ 2.81 _ -.01 _ 0
Moog 713 _ 132 _ 372 _ 68 _ .622 _ .544 _ -.078 _ 3.13 _3.04 _ -.09 _ 3
Vernon - 781 _ 138 _ 385 _ 77 _ .575 _ .579 _ +.004 _ 2.98 _ 2.68 _ -.30 _ 2
Thompson - 553 _ 44 _ 284 _ 20 _ .581 _ .455 _ -.126 _ 2.08 _ 1.88 _ -.20 _ 1
Kerr 427 _ 40 _ 203 _ 18 _ .565 _ .488 _ -.077 _ 2.15 _1.74 _ -.41 _ 1
Dryden - 397 _ 112 _ 258 _ 80 _ .758 _ .714 _ -.044 _ 2.24 _ 2.40 _ +.16 _ 6
Hasek - 595 _ 97 _ 296 _ 53 _ .591 _ .576 _ -.015 _ 2.23 _ 2.03 _ -.20 _ 1
Broda - 629 _ 101 _ 302 _ 60 _ .562 _ .606 _ +.044 _ 2.53 _ 1.98 _ -.55 _ 5
Joseph 798 _ 131 _ 396 _ 62 _ .569 _ .484 _ -.085 _ 2.75 _ 2.44 _ -.31 _ 0
Brodeur - 740 _ 144 _ 403 _ 84 _ .628 _ .583 _ -.045 _ 2.17 _ 1.87 _ -.30 _ 3
Chabot 411 _ 37 _ 201 _ 13 _ .564 _ .444 _ -.120 _ 2.04 _ 1.54 _ -.50 _ 2
Lumley 804 _ 76 _ 330 _ 29 _ .501 _ .382 _ -.119 _ 2.76 _ 2.50 _ -.26 _ 1
Durnan - 383 _ 45 _ 208 _ 27 _ .626 _ .600 _ -.026 _ 2.36 _ 2.07 _ -.29 _ 2
Benedict* 3620 _ 48 _ 191 _ 26 _ .568 _ .598 _ +.030 _ 2.30 _ 1.80 _ -.50 _ 4
Barrasso 777 _ 119 _ 369 _ 61 _ .563 _ .530 _ -.033 _ 3.24 _ 3.01 _ -.23 _ 2
Smith - 680 _ 132 _ 305 _ 88 _ .556 _ .710 _ +.154 _ 3.17 _ 2.73 _ -.44 _ 4
Cheevers - 418 _ 88 _ 230 _ 53 _ .658 _ .609 _ -.059 _ 2.89 _ 2.69 _ -.20 _ 2
Vanbiesbrouck 882 _ 71 _ 374 _ 28 _ .517 _ .424 _ -.093 _ 2.98 _ 2.68 _ -.30 _ 0
Lindbergh - 157 _ 23 _ 87 _ 12 _ .626 _ .545 _ -.81 _ 3.30 _ 3.11 _ -.19 _ 0
Hainsworth - 465 _ 52 _ 246 _ 22 _ .609 _ .471 _ -.138 _ 1.93 _ 1.93 _ 0 _ 2
Vezina* - 190 _ 26 _ 103 _ 16 _ .558 _ .654 _ +.096 _ 3.28 _ 2.78 _ -.50 _ 1(2**)

*Includes Stanley Cup Playoff Rounds in Playoff totals
** Won Cup while playing in NHA

Player GAADif
1. Connell -.72
2. Gardiner -.59
3. Broda -.55
4. Benedict -.50
4. Chabot -.50
4. Vezina -.50
7. Fuhr -.46
8. Smith -.44
9. McLean -.42
9. Kolzig -.42
11. Kerr -.41
12. Khabibulin -.38
13. Joseph -.31
14. Brodeur -.30
14. Vanbiesbrouck -.30
14. Vernon -.30
17. Durnan -.29
18. Belfour -.26
18. Lumley -.26
20. Plante -.24
20. Roy -.24
22. Barrasso -.23
23. Vachon -.22
24. Richter -.21
25. Cheevers -.20
25. Hasek -.20
25. Osgood -.20
25. Thompson -.20
29. Lindbergh -.19
30. Worters -.18
31. Brimsek -.16
32. Parent -.12
33. Worsley -.10
34. Moog -.09
35. Bower -.04
36. Giacomin -.01
37. Hainsworth 0
38. Sawchuk +.03
39. Esposito +.15
40. Dryden +.16
41. Hall +.29

Player - W%Dif
1. Gardiner +.206
2. Smith +.154
3. Worsley +.116
4. Vezina +.096
5. Fuhr +.081
6. Plante +.050
7. Broda +.044
8. Benedict +.030
8. Khabibulin +.030
10. Connell +.027
11. Richter +.020
12. McLean +.015
13. Vernon +.004
14. Roy -.002
15. Hasek -.015
16. Durnan -.026
17. Parent -.027
18. Belfour -.029
19. Sawchuk -.031
20. Barrasso -.033
21. Vachon -.041
22. Bower -.044
22. Dryden -.044
24. Brodeur -.045
25. Cheevers -.059
25. Kolzig -.059
27. Osgood -.068
28. Worters -.076
29. Kerr -.077
30. Moog -.078
31. Lindbergh -.081
32. Joseph -.085
33. Vanbiesbrouck -.093
34. Brimsek -.097
35. Esposito -.107
36. Giacomin -.115
37. Hall -.115
38. Lumley -.119
39. Chabot -.120
40. Thompson -.126
41. Hainsworth -.138

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06-05-2005, 06:31 PM
  #1360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Total Points

Totalling the players Peak Value years would be a better indicator. Gretzky/Lemieux, Orr/Bourque are completely different comparisons on career levels, than on on-ice impact at their best.
Agreed, I included it because I thought it would be interesting (though not particularly relevant). Looking at Peak Value is the best single indicator of offensive skill, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Most 100 Point Seasons

Same goes here as for Total Points. You only get to put 1 Gretzky on the ice, so counting his multiple 100 point seasons isn't important. Is 20 100 point seasons by 4 players really better than 12 by 6 players?
True, but there aren't a lot players with that many 100 pt seasons, aside from Gretzky (16) and Lemieux (9). Then we have Howe, Jagr and Espo with 7 each and Lafleur, Dionne and Sakic with 6 each. Still, Peak Value is the best thing to look at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Highest Plus/Minus
Team GP PM
1 Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 18,432 3,768
2 Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 13,699 2,578
3 VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 16,510 2,333
4 Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 16,625 2,024
5 John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 11,457 1,985
6 Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 16,494 1,768
7 Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 12,363 1,635
8 #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 12,820 1,492
9 Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 13,469 1,407
10 Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 8,518 1,256
11 kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 9,048 1,080
12 DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 8,369 925
13 BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 4,421 815
14 Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 6,566 755
15 Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 12,649 66

Is this also an adjusted stat?

One thing that stands out to me is my teams low games played total. Dividing +/- by games played I rank only behind Spitfire_11 and Evil Sather.

I have to add that though this is additional info in the arsenal, it really isn't much use overall, since it was only tracked after 67. You only have +/- for a small fraction of Gordie Howe's career and none of Rocket Richard's.
This isn't adjusted, and I know that it only goes back to 1967. Obviously it's of limited use but I thought it would be interesting anyway.

Here's a breakdown of Peak Value, team-by-team (NHL stats only):

Player Team PV3
Joe Sakic #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 121
Guy Lafleur #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 118
Teemu Selanne #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 117
Keith Tkachuk #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 93
Dickie Moore #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 93
Elmer Lach #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 88
Brian Leetch #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 87
Jean Pronovost #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 74
Hakan Loob #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 74
Bobby Holik #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 73
Danny Gare #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 71
Dale Hunter #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 66
Guy Lapointe #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 63
Ralph Backstrom #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 61
Reed Larson #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 58
Lionel Conacher #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 55
Vladimir Konstantinov #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 34
Mark Tinordi #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 29
Fern Flaman #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 29
Alexander Yakushev #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball*
Bill Durnan #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball*
Clint Benedict #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball*
Tom Barrasso #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball*
Al Arbour, Coach #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball*

Jaromir Jagr Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 143
Pavel Bure Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 106
Stan Mikita Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 104
Bobby Hull Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 104
Mark Recchi Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 102
Harvey "Busher" Jackson Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 92
Bernie Federko Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 84
Ebbie Goodfellow Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 82
Sid Abel Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 81
Igor Larionov Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 67
Claude Provost Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 65
Scott Niedermayer Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 61
Wade Redden Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 51
Bob Nystrom Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 50
Serge Savard Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 43
Ivan "Ching" Johnson Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 38
Vladimir Krutov Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces* 0
Anatoly Firsov Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Frantisek Pospisil Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Jiri Holecek Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Nikolai Khabibulin Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Olaf Kolzig Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Pat Burns, Coach Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*
Vladimir Lutchenko Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces*

Ron Francis Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 107
Alexander Mogilny Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 102
Pat Lafontaine Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 101
Bernie Geoffrion Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 93
John Bucyk Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 93
Dave Andreychuk Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 86
Jacques Lemaire Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 85
Ray Bourque Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 84
Rick Middleton Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 82
Albert "Babe" Siebert Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 78
John MacLean Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 71
Dave Keon Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 70
Syd Howe Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 67
Ken Linseman Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 67
Doug Harvey Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 60
Jack Darragh Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 46
Tom Johnson Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 36
Carl Brewer Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 32
Arthur Coulter Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 27
Red Horner Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven* 0
Glen Sather, Coach Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven*
Harry Lumley Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven*
Lorne Chabot Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven*
Martin Brodeur Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven*

Phil Esposito Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 140
Mike Bossy Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 106
Peter Stastny Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 101
Jeremy Roenick Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 94
Andy Bathgate Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 94
Frank Mahovlich Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 90
Al MacInnis Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 82
Steve Larmer Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 82
Alex Delvecchio Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 79
Pat Verbeek Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 78
Phil Housley Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 77
Garry Unger Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 71
Brian Sutter Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 66
Dean Prentice Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 65
Mike Peca Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 63
Chris Pronger Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 62
Doug Mohns Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 57
Steve Smith Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 47
Brad McCrimmon Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 38
Jeff Beukeboom Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles* 17
Dave Kerr Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles*
Mike Vernon Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles*
Scotty Bowman, Coach Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles*
Tiny Thompson Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles*

Bill Cook BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 102
Charlie Conacher BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 99
Jarome Iginla BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 93
Syl Apps Sr. BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 83
Frank Nighbor BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 82
Martin St. Louis BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 79
Bert Olmstead BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 79
Gary Roberts BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 76
Red Kelly BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 71
John Tonelli BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 70
Woody Dumart BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 64
Don Luce BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 62
Marcel Pronovost BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 38
Bill White BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 38
Slava Fetisov BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 35
Bill Quackenbush BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 35
Jack Stewart BM67 - Kansas City Scouts* 24
Chuck Gardiner BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Cyclone Taylor BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Hod Stuart BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Jacques Plante BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Johnny Bower BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Tommy Ivan, Coach BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*
Vladimir Petrov BM67 - Kansas City Scouts*

Mario Lemieux DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 158
Aurel Joliat DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 118
Gil Perreault DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 91
David "Sweeney" Schriner DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 87
Newsy Lalonde DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 86
Dave Taylor DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 82
Cam Neely DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 79
Nicklas Lidstrom DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 76
Larry Murphy DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 70
Buck Boucher DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 69
Neil Colville DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 66
Edgar Laprade DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 57
Ron Ellis DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 53
Vaclav Nedomansky DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 52
Kris Draper DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 41
Emile 'Butch' Bouchard DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 30
Frank Foyston DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers* 0
Alexander Ragulin DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Dan Bain DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Frank Brimsek DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Gump Worsley DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Roy Worters DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Valeri Vasiliev DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*
Wayne Gretzky, Coach DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers*

Peter Forsberg Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 115
Adam Oates Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 108
Ken Hodge Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 97
Kevin Stevens Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 95
Reg "Hooley" Smith Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 94
Peter Bondra Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 89
Denis Potvin Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 85
Steve Shutt Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 83
Bill Barber Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 77
Clark Gillies Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 72
Gary Suter Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 70
Sergei Makarov Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 70
Larry Robinson Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 68
Borje Salming Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 67
Brent Sutter Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 65
Mark Howe Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 63
Ron Greschner Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 56
Dirk Graham Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 53
Joel Otto Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 45
Kevin Lowe Evil Sather - New York Rangers* 33
Billy Smith Evil Sather - New York Rangers*
Gerry Cheevers Evil Sather - New York Rangers*
Jacques Lemaire, Coach Evil Sather - New York Rangers*
John Vanbiesbrouck Evil Sather - New York Rangers*

Cy Denneny Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 135
Frank Boucher Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 122
Gordie Howe Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 117
Marcel Dionne Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 113
Joe Primeau Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 110
Paul Coffey Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 104
Cecil "Babe" Dye Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 95
King Clancy Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 86
Doug Bentley Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 85
Charlie Simmer Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 82
Gordie Drillon Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 77
Steve Thomas Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 76
Craig Ramsay Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 60
Bill Gadsby Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 59
Bob Pulford Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 57
Sylvio Mantha Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 54
Jim Thomson Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 41
Ken Reardon Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 31
Gus Mortson Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues* 27
Alex Connell Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues*
Ed Belfour Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues*
Lester Patrick, Coach Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues*
Tony Esposito Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues*
Valeri Kharlamov Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues*

Howie Morenz John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 129
Eric Lindros John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 115
Denis Savard John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 101
Ted Lindsay John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 99
Jean Ratelle John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 94
Brendan Shanahan John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 93
Rod Brind'amour John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 88
Rick MacLeish John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 84
Mats Naslund John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 76
Eddie Shore John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 75
Harry "Punch" Broadbent John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 74
Brad Park John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 73
Bill Mosienko John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 68
Dave Poulin John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 61
Eric Desjardins John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 57
Craig Hartsburg John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 53
Sprague Cleghorn John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 51
Alexei Kasatonov John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 34
Petr Svoboda John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 32
Bryan Hextall Sr. John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers* 0
George Hainsworth John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers*
Georges Vezina John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers*
Ken Hitchcock, Coach John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers*
Pelle Lindbergh John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers*

Jean Beliveau kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 105
Nels Stewart kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 104
Jari Kurri kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 103
Max Bentley kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 87
Bill Cowley kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 87
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 84
Tim Kerr kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 80
Rick Martin kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 79
Ted Kennedy kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 74
Wayne Cashman kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 74
Peter McNab kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 73
Rick Vaive kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 69
Harry Cameron kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 59
George Armstrong kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 58
Paul Henderson kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 58
Rob Ramage kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 49
Tim Horton kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 40
Merv "Red" Dutton kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 39
Allan Stanley kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 36
Rod Langway kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans* 31
Dick Irvin, Coach kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans*
Ken Dryden kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans*
Percy LeSueur kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans*
Vladislav Tretiak kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans*

Bobby Orr Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 125
Paul Kariya Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 110
Brett Hull Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 107
Irvine "Ace" Bailey Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 104
John Leclair Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 104
Doug Gilmour Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 99
Todd Bertuzzi Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 94
Joe Thornton Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 94
Darryl Sittler Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 92
Vincent Damphousse Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 88
Rod Gilbert Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 86
Joe Nieuwendyk Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 84
Roy Conacher Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 79
Ed Litzenberger Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 78
Sandis Ozolinsh Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 64
Doug Wilson Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 62
Ed Jovanovski Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 53
Zdeno Chara Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 40
Derian Hatcher Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 35
Bill Barilko Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats* 18
Chris Osgood Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats*
Glenn Hall Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats*
Grant Fuhr Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats*
Punch Imlach, Coach Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats*

Wayne Gretzky Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 169
Bernie Nicholls Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 105
Theo Fleury Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 103
Zigmund Palffy Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 100
Luc Robitaille Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 100
Mike Modano Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 95
Henri Richard Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 84
Yvan Cournoyer Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 80
Mike Gartner Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 77
Clarence "Happy" Day Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 77
Trevor Linden Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 72
Sergei Zubov Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 70
Joe Malone Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 67
Scott Stevens Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 63
Teppo Numminen Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 56
Al Iafrate Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 54
Barry Beck Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 48
Bob Probert Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 44
Mattias Ohlund Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 41
Doug Jarvis Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires* 35
Fred Shero, Coach Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires*
Kirk Mclean Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires*
Mike Richter Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires*
Terry Sawchuk Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires*

Dale Hawerchuk Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 99
Doug Weight Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 95
Maurice Richard Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 92
Kent Nilsson Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 90
Glenn Anderson Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 83
Lanny McDonald Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 81
Toe Blake Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 78
Kirk Muller Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 77
Butch Goring Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 73
Reggie Leach Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 71
Steve Duchesne Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 66
Rob Blake Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 64
Wendel Clark Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 62
Pierre Pilote Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 62
J.C. Tremblay Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 51
Babe Pratt Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 48
Jean-Guy Talbot Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 36
Leo Boivin Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 27
Dave Brown Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 12
Alexander Maltsev Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers*
Bob Johnson, Coach Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers*
Curtis Joseph Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers*
Dominik Hasek Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers*
Turk Broda Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers*

Markus Naslund Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 109
Bryan Trottier Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 108
Sergei Fedorov Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 104
Mats Sundin Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 97
Patrik Elias Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 95
Michel Goulet Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 92
Pete Mahovlich Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 86
Norm Ullman Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 85
Milt Schmidt Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 83
Rick Tocchet Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 81
Sergei Gonchar Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 71
Chris Chelios Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 66
Don Marcotte Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 51
John Ferguson Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 51
Earl Seibert Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 44
Harry Howell Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 40
Jacques Laperriere Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 35
Ulf Samuelsson Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 31
Jim Schoenfeld Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers* 28
Andy Moog Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers*
Boris Mikhailov Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers*
Ed Giacomin Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers*
Patrick Roy Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers*
Toe Blake, Coach Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers*

Steve Yzerman VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 118
Mark Messier VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 102
Bobby Clarke VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 99
Dino Ciccarelli VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 83
Brian Propp VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 77
Claude Lemieux VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 66
Terry O'Reilly VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 66
Esa Tikkanen VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 65
Jere Lehtinen VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 58
Randy Carlyle VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 57
Guy Carbonneau VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 47
Dave "Tiger" Williams VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 47
Bob Gainey VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 35
Adam Foote VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 34
Mike Ramsey VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 30
Craig Ludwig VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 19
Bernie Parent VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Frantisek Tikal VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Jan Suchy VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Jiri Holik VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Josef Malecek VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Pat Quinn, Coach VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Rogie Vachon VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*
Vladimir Dzurilla VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats*

Edit: I realized the team-by-team peak values I had were incorrect for a few teams. Benton, Bergeron, and John Flyer Fan each move up a few spots.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-05-2005 at 06:50 PM.
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06-07-2005, 08:07 AM
  #1361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Looking at Peak Value is the best single indicator of offensive skill, in my opinion.

Teemu Selanne #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 117
Keith Tkachuk #66 - Les Royaux de Turnball* 93

Esa Tikkanen VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 65
Bob Gainey VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats* 35
A joke.

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06-07-2005, 08:20 AM
  #1362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
A joke.
Well that is a rating in terms of pure offensive production. If there was a way to properly gauge the completeness of a player, then I am sure you would see the rankings there come out much differently, but as it stands at the current time I would have to say that Gainey and Tikkanen didn't have the offensive potential in their primes that a Selanne or a Tkachuk had - and that is what the ranking is showing. I think there are some flaws, such as the impact of linemates on a players statistical output - but the examples you pointed out do not do anything to that effect.

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06-07-2005, 01:20 PM
  #1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
A joke.
Those numbers show offense only. They don't take into account defense, checking, etc. But I don't think it's surprising to say that Selanne and Tkachuk were better scorers than Gainey and Tikkanen.

Gainey's best seasons were 47, 45 and 43 points (37, 34 and 34 adjusted points)
Tik's best seasons were 78, 78 and 74 points (68, 66 and 63 adjusted points)

Tkachuk's best seasons were 98, 86 and 81 points (97, 92 and 90 adjusted points)
Selanne's best seasons were 132, 109 and 108 points (125, 116 and 111 adjusted points)

Gainey and Tikkanen were never in the top ten in any offensive category, even once; Tkachuk and especially Selanne were in the top ten numerous times.

I really don't think it's controversial to say that Tkachuk and Selanne were better offensive players than Gainey and Tiikanen.

Edit: Yes, I agree with Benton that there are certain flaws in the system, like the effects of linemates. But overall it's a fairer way of looking at how well players score relative to their peers.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-07-2005 at 03:19 PM.
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06-08-2005, 11:28 AM
  #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
I really don't think it's controversial to say that Tkachuk and Selanne were better offensive players than Gainey and Tiikanen.
In the playoffs? I don't think so.

Games in November and January are almost meaningless in the opinions of many great hockey players who know that the real season begins and ends with the postseason. Some players just don't get it done when it matters most, are entirely stoppable, casting doubts of the relevance of regular season efforts (to pad stats and get higher paycheques? or just simply incapable of producing offensively in the playoffs when the opposition is toughest?).

Any stat which places Tkachuk and Selanne so far ahead of Tikkanen and Gainey isn't worth putting much stock in. Even to determine offensive worth. Especially when some of these guys are NOT offensive producers when it matters most.

Tikkanen three times could have won the Conn Smythe, Gainey twice. Tkachuk and Selanne are two of the least deserving postseason heroes I've ever heard of among talented scorers... they just haven't gotten it done, and in fact have received a lot of bad press for choking in the playoffs. I was a huge Selanne fan but I've often seen him fail to rise to the challenge and gave up on him in San Jose, cursing at the tv screen one too many times in the postseason.


Last edited by VanIslander: 06-08-2005 at 11:50 AM.
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06-08-2005, 11:58 AM
  #1365
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Quote:
Looking at Peak Value is the best single indicator of offensive skill, in my opinion
My counter examples are evidence against this as the "best" indicator.

How about a weighted average of 50 % regular season production and 50 % postseason production?

Beating up on the Predators, Kings and Blackhawks wouldn't be weighted so heavily then, and the "peak" performance of playing with great line-mates for one season wouldn't distort the numbers so much.

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06-08-2005, 04:17 PM
  #1366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
How about a weighted average of 50 % regular season production and 50 % postseason production?
I would like to do this, but I don't know where to get the playoff stats from. If somebody could give me the data in Excel I could have it done in an hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Beating up on the Predators, Kings and Blackhawks wouldn't be weighted so heavily then, and the "peak" performance of playing with great line-mates for one season wouldn't distort the numbers so much.
There's some room for error here, but I'm not too concerned about it. Most years teams play similar schedules, so everyone has an equal chance of beating up on expansion teams. I use a three year average to try to get rid of flukes (or else Rob Brown would be one of the greatest scorers ever). It's true that your linemates effect your stats, but that's true for any statistic at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Games in November and January are almost meaningless in the opinions of many great hockey players who know that the real season begins and ends with the postseason. Some players just don't get it done when it matters most, are entirely stoppable, casting doubts of the relevance of regular season efforts (to pad stats and get higher paycheques? or just simply incapable of producing offensively in the playoffs when the opposition is toughest?).
The playoffs are obviously important, but the regular season is also important for a few reasons. 1) The regular season has a balanced schedule (or pretty close to it), so every player has a chance to score against the same opponents. In the playoffs, if you face New Jersey and Ottawa, no matter how great you are, you're going to have a tough time scoring. Look at Yashin--he's a bad playoff performer for sure, but every single opponent he's faced has been significantly above average in terms of defence/goaltending. Some players consistently go up against weak defence teams and inflate their stats. It's not always the basis for a fair comparison. 2) The regular season is a large sample size. In the playoffs, you can go on a 10-game hot steak and that will inflate all your stats. If a player only has one high-scoring postseason (ie Bob Gainey, Alyn McCauley, Phil Bourque, Mark Lamb) I'd consider it a fluke. Over an 82 game regular season flukes are much less common.

My point is, the playoffs are obviously important, but there are many factors that make it harder to use PO statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Any stat which places Tkachuk and Selanne so far ahead of Tikkanen and Gainey isn't worth putting much stock in.
You don't have to use it, but given what it's designed to measure, I'd say it does a pretty good job. Certainly it's better than using unadjusted stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
In the playoffs? I don't think so.
- Bob Gainey had one high-scoring postseason when he won the Smythe. Other than that, he scored at about the same pace as he did during the regular season. Pro-rate his playoffs to 82 games: other than 1979, his best postseason is 49 points in 1978, which is pretty much what he was scoring during his best offensive seasons during the regular season. Overall, during the regular season, Gainey averaged .43 ppg; during the playoffs he averaged 0.40. Seems pretty consistent.

- Tikkanen scored .71 ppg during the playoffs and .72 during the regular season. Also very consistent. He didn't score much in '86 or '87 (7th and 6th on the team). In fact in '87 his production dropped off quite a lot despite a high-scoring regular season. 1988 he had a good year (4th on the team, on pace for over 110 points). 1989 he had a bad year (all of the Oilers did). 1990 he had a good year and was again 4th on the team. 1991 he had an amazing playoff run. The rest of his career he didn't score much in the playoffs (in '92 and especially '94, both before he was 30), aside for a good run with the 1997 Rangers. If we look only at Tikkanen's offence, I don't think one can say that he's an elite playoff scorer. His ppg in the regular season and playoffs are almost identical, and, more importantly, for every high-scoring playoff he has, he also has one where he's been completely shut down ('87, '92, '94). Let's also remember that Tikkanen never had to face the opposition's best defence, who focused on shutting down Gretzky & Kurri, Coffey, Messier and Anderson (aside from 1991), or other stars like Vinny Damphousse, Adam Graves, Brian Leetch, etc., later on.

- Selanne has only been in 49 playoff games. That's not a big enough sample size to base any conclusions on. In his time in Winnipeg and Anaheim he was good when he was there (20 pts in 21 games, which is close to what Tikkanen did in his prime in a higher scoring era on a much better offensive team, though the sample size is too small). But I agree that he's been quite bad in San Jose and Colorado last year (though the sample size is again too small).

- Tkachuk hasn't been a great postseason performer but he does have a few big postseasons.

To sum up this long rant: Overall Gainey, Tiikanen and Selanne scored as well in the playoffs as they did during the regular seasons. Tkachuk hasn't.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-08-2005 at 04:27 PM.
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06-08-2005, 07:44 PM
  #1367
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Ok.

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06-08-2005, 09:58 PM
  #1368
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Goaltending best to worst. I didn't bother with a rating, the teams are pretty close for the most part. Lack of playoff success, at least compared to regular season success, is what really did in some of the teams.

BM67 - Kansas City Scouts: Jacques Plante - Johnny Bower - Chuck Gardiner
Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers: Dominik Hasek - Turk Broda - Curtis Joseph
Spitfire_11 - Hartford Whalers: Patrick Roy - Ed Giacomin - Andy Moog
Leaf Lander - Toronto St. Pats: Glenn Hall - Grant Fuhr - Chris Osgood
kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans: Ken Dryden - Vladislav Tretiak - Percy LeSueur
Bergeron47 - Ottawa Silver Seven: Martin Brodeur Lorne Chabot Harry Lumley
VanIslander - Victoria Aristocrats: Bernie Parent - Vladimir Dzurilla - Rogie Vachon
Monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires: Terry Sawchuk - Mike Richter - Kirk Mclean
#66 - Les Royaux de Turnball: Bill Durnan Clint Benedict Tom Barrasso
Hockey Outsider - Saskatoon Blues: Ed Belfour - Tony Esposito - Alex Connell
Evil Sather - New York Rangers: Billy Smith Gerry Cheevers - John Vanbiesbrouck
Benton Fraser - Quebec Aces: Jiri Holecek - Nikolai Khabibulin - Olaf Kolzig
John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers: Pelle Lindbergh - George Hainsworth - Georges Vezina
DrMoses - Cleveland Steamers: Frank Brimsek - Gump Worsley - Roy Worters
Bluebleeder - St. Louis Eagles: Mike Vernon - Tiny Thompson - Dave Kerr

Some thing to make you go hmm: Alex Connell won two Stanley Cups, but never won a playoff game in a year that he didn't win the Cup. 8-0-5 in 2 Cup years vs 0-5-3 in 4 non-Cup years.

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06-09-2005, 12:44 AM
  #1369
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Ohhh-Yaaaa, Finally near the top of the heap with something........

Curious to see Dr Moses rated so low with Brimsek & Worsley. Brimsek was an 8 time all-star and 2 time Vezina winner. Worsley was also a 2 time Vezina winner. Seems to me they'd be a pretty stout combination.

Outsider, while on the topic of peak value, puzzling to see the likes of Doug Weight above Rocket Richard, Kent Nilsson right there with him and Steve Duchense leading of all my defense?



Dale Hawerchuk Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 99
Doug Weight Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 95
Maurice Richard Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 92
Kent Nilsson Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 90

Steve Duchesne Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 66
Rob Blake Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 64
Pierre Pilote Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 62
J.C. Tremblay Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 51
Babe Pratt Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 48
Jean-Guy Talbot Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 36
Leo Boivin Murphy2 - Hamilton Tigers* 27

I dunno man, interesting as all get out and a ton of work on your end.

but sometimes you just got to scratch your head with these ratings and go WTF?

I still love my team though.

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06-09-2005, 08:26 AM
  #1370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2
Curious to see Dr Moses rated so low with Brimsek & Worsley. Brimsek was an 8 time all-star and 2 time Vezina winner. Worsley was also a 2 time Vezina winner. Seems to me they'd be a pretty stout combination.
I might have been a little harsh on Brimsek, but he does have a losing playoff record.

Worsley shared his two Vezinas and only played 91 of 144 games those years.

Of course, having a 5'3" third goalie didn't earn him any bonus points.

Even Vernon - Thompson - Kerr is "pretty stout", but just doesn't match up to the other teams.

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06-09-2005, 12:37 PM
  #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2
Curious to see Dr Moses rated so low with Brimsek & Worsley. Brimsek was an 8 time all-star and 2 time Vezina winner. Worsley was also a 2 time Vezina winner. Seems to me they'd be a pretty stout combination.
Agreed, I would move Dr Moses' team up a few spots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2
Outsider, while on the topic of peak value, puzzling to see the likes of Doug Weight above Rocket Richard, Kent Nilsson right there with him and Steve Duchense leading of all my defense?
I was a bit surprised by Richard's relatively low rating too, but there are a few reasons for that. First, he didn't get a lot of assists so even though he was an excellent goal-scorer, his low number of assists keeps his overall rating low (same thing happens for Charlie Conacher, Peter Bondra, Cam Neely, Tim Kerr, etc). Second, I think Richard's excellence was due more to consistency, rather than a few huge seasons. His best years are: 95, 90, 90, 87, 84, 83, 82, 80, 73, 69 and 68 points and 53, 52, 52, 52, 50, 49, 49, 40, 37, 35, 33, 32, 29 and 27 goals. Weight and (especially) Nilsson may have had a few huge seasons but they don't come close to Richard's consistent excellence year after year.

Peak Value, Goal-Scoring
Best 3 Years: Richard ranks 25th, averaging 52.4 goals
Best 5 years: Richard ranks 14th, averaging 51.8 goals
Best 7 years: Richard ranks 12th, averaging 51.1 goals
Best 10 years: Richard ranks 10th, averaging 47.0 goals
Best 15 years: Richard ranks 9th, averaging 40.9 goals

Richard was consistently excellent, and maintained this elite level of play over a long period of time.

-----

Duchesne is pretty much tied with Blake and Pilotte, a difference a 2 or 3 points isn't significant. I was surprised to see him rank so high but he's had some excellent offensive seasons: 82 pts in 1993 (4th among defencemen), 75 pts in 1989 (2nd among defencemen), on pace for 66 during the lockout year (5th among defencemen) and a couple more seasons over 60 pts (both in the top 10); he was also 4th among defencemen in 1998. Duchesne did have the benefit of playing with some fantastic talents like Gretzky and Sakic, but so did Blake and Pilotte. Overall I would have to say that Duchesne is underrated offensively and his Peak Value ranking makes sense.

I do appreciate all the comments.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-09-2005 at 05:03 PM.
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06-10-2005, 10:46 PM
  #1372
Evil Sather
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I said I was going to do a write-up of every team, didn't I? School's over, here we go, I'll start with the Victoria Aristocrats. Note, I'm going on the roster thread, if thats not the latest lines for you, then it'll have to be revised. I'll start with...

The Victoria Aristocrats:

Forwards: In my opinion, the centers are the class of the draft, which it better be considering Van_Islander spent his first 3 picks on them. Probably overkill, in retrospect. Wings are very long on grit and determination, and short on primo goal scoring ability and especially playmaking skills, excluding Propp. Dino got a ton of goals, but most were of the crease camping variety. Tikkanen and Lemieux, while they would be superlative 3rd and 4th liners, are very weak 2nd liners in context of an all time draft, not nearly enough natural goal scoring ability, or playmaking, though Lemieux was certainly far better for longer than the very inconsistant Tikkanen career-wise (as celebrated as he is for certain things, a great career he did not have). Maybe the most ideal shut-down line in the draft in Gainey-Clarke-Lehtinen, though Clarke was always a bit slow -- I might have gone for someone like a Borje Salming or Slava Fetisov to anchor the defense in Clarke's place and worried about 3rd line C later. Overall there are excellent defensive and shorthanded forwards, which is good, because with Dino, Messier, Lemieux, Tikkanen, Clarke, Terry O'Reilly, and Tiger Williams you're going to have a ridiculous amount of penalties. Keep in mind this isn't the Stanley Cup playoffs where muggings will go unpunished. Overall very strong centers and lots of defense and grit, though comparitively little in the goal scoring department, and a ton of slashing minors. Still, you could likely grind out wins on guts alone. Grade: B+

Defense: Bloody hell. This is what happens when you don't take a defenseman until the 10th round, and then not another till the 16th (though you did trade for Carlyle in the 13th.) Easily the weakest in the draft. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want all 5'9 168 lbs. of Jan Suchy on my top pairing absorbing punishment. Mike Ramsey, while a very good defensive defenseman, would be a better suited for a bottom pairing than the top in context of this draft. Carlyle-Foote is a better pairing for the top IMO, and even they are a 3rd pairing for this draft, though even Carlyle's Norris season he more or less won by default, despite trying to lead a bad Penguins team. Tikal seems like a random Euro HoF'er, I couldn't find much on him other than him playing in the 60s primarily, called "one of the best defensemen of his era" but that's not exactly informative. Malacek was a God against likely ridiculously inferior Czech competition in the 20s and 30s, but how good to say he was is impossible. Ludwig was a ******* and a great shotblocker, and is a fine 6th/7th d-man for the draft. However overall, while there are decent defensive defensemen, no one is a stand-out shut down guy, and the offensive and two way guys either leave a lot to be desired or have too many question marks to definitely make comments about one way or another. Grade: D

Goal: Parent was a stellar goalie and absolutely a #1 in this draft, has the cups, has the ability, and was cited by his Flyer teamates as the reason they won. Dzuzilla there has been much contention about, some say he was brilliant, others argue he happened to be fat enough to have pucks hit him behind a stellar Soviet D. Vachon played behind some excellent Hab teams, then hit his stride with some medicore Kings teams. The best 3rd goalie in the draft, for what thats worth. Stayed around a bit too long, which hurt his career numbers. Grade: A-

Coach: Pat Quinn would take one look at his forwards and spooge himself. He has a very good record and isn't afraid to take chances, though I would have taken a Lemaire type for this team, because with that defense they're going to need all the help they can get, and a defensive genius Pat Quinn is NOT. Fred Shero would have been perfect, actually. Grade: B-

Overall: The opposite of my team in X2, you focused completely on forwards. While I believe you have a team that would win a Stanley Cup tournament every year since its inception, you simply have too many guys who take too many penalties, and way too weak of a defense to be the "best team" in this draft, playoff heroics aside from their numerous contributors. If you win, you'll win 1-0 or 2-1, but if you give up 3 goals I question your teams ability to play a run&gun game. Grade: B-

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06-12-2005, 08:57 AM
  #1373
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Very well thought out analyses. Way to go!

Though I'm amazed that Dino's 600 goals while standing in the crease could at all count against him as an offensive threat! And with Yzerman playing with the skill he displayed in his youth and Messier in his prime, Clarke's third line contributions and dominant two-way play ensures a third line threat against even the very best, especially when some teams are stocked with defensively-soft first liners.

"Maybe the best defensive line". Maybe? Please list which line approaches the defensive dominance and shorthand threat of Gainey-Clarke-Lehtinen in their prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Sather
Dzuzilla there has been much contention about, some say he was brilliant, others argue he happened to be fat enough to have pucks hit him behind a stellar Soviet D.
He was no Soviet. In fact, he was the first goaltender in three decades to shutout the Soviets, and he did it twice, while backstopping an admittedly solid defensively-skilled core of Czechoslovakian defensemen, including Aristocrat Frantisek Tikal.

And late in his career, in his mid-thirties and working full-time as a refrigerator repairman (so admittedly chubby) he donned the pads once again for his country and shone in Canada Cup '76, with Aristocrat Vachon at the other end of the rink, in what Ken Dryden considered a goaltending spectacle unlike any he's ever seen, then or since, and which some dub the best showcase of goaltending excellence ever distilled into a single game.

Does this mean the goaltending rating moves from A- to A?

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06-19-2005, 12:33 PM
  #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Agreed, I would move Dr Moses' team up a few spots.
As I said most of them are pretty close, so you probably could move any or all of them a place or two, and as I said when I placed my goalie rankings for the last draft, "I am posting these so I can stop moving somebody every time I look at them."

Rate Roy "The Best", and you will move Hartford up. Don't like the Euro goalies, they all move down a spot or two. I was hoping that somebody would have made their own goalie rankings by now.

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07-18-2005, 10:06 AM
  #1375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergeron47
I'm thinking of setting up a series of polls for an x3 Draft, having the top seed in the draft vs. the bottom seed.

Only thing is that there's an odd number of teams.

Any suggestions? Maybe we can have a preliminary with the bottom 2 teams against each other or something.
How about we set up a team vs team poll for a regular season result. Say 4 games against each team, 2 home, 2 road. A poll like how many points would the Millionaires get in 4 games against the Aristocrats? 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0? No OTL points to keep it simple.

Get a set of strengths and weaknesses writeup for each team to post with each poll, along with the rosters and then all you have to do is set up 105 polls.

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