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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:28 PM
  #1
spiny norman
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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

Please continue.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:32 PM
  #2
Winroba
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guy was right, Gardiner would have been on our 3rd pairing most likely, don't see what's wrong with that.

But a Gardiner - Tanev pairing would be pretty awesome

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01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #3
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" don't see the problem with that? he WOULD be a 5 or 6 dman on vancouver. And it's not like we are weak there. We have a more pressing need for scoring forwards. I'm not sure why you are having issues with that...seems you are a bit sensitive to a perceived fualt where there is none."

Maybe I am sensitive to it, maybe I misunderstood? However reading hard pressed to crack top6, maybe 5-6 doesn't say to me he would be 5-6. Maybe it is the same reaction as to when other teams fans tell you Loungo is worthless. I am not nor have i said he is just to be clear. But you can only take your team being beat up and put down before a defensive reaction occurs. Comments such as "it is easy to get defensive when your team only has one good player", lol, which I can now not find, make it hard not to be.

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01-23-2013, 12:40 PM
  #4
baartman
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
guy was right, Gardiner would have been on our 3rd pairing most likely, don't see what's wrong with that.

But a Gardiner - Tanev pairing would be pretty awesome
I think pairings are a bad way to judge the competence of a d corps. The way to judge this is by evaluating the dynamics of each player. Leafs fans were guilty of this the past few years by praising their d "on paper" before the season began.

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01-23-2013, 12:45 PM
  #5
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I think pairings are a bad way to judge the competence of a d corps. The way to judge this is by evaluating the dynamics of each player. Leafs fans were guilty of this the past few years by praising their d "on paper" before the season began.
Ya, a lot of Leafs fan were guilty of that. I think we have had some potential in the past, but unfotunatly I feel our parts are greater then the hole. Our defence pairing have not worked overly well for us lately.

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01-23-2013, 12:53 PM
  #6
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Ya, a lot of Leafs fan were guilty of that. I think we have had some potential in the past, but unfotunatly I feel our parts are greater then the hole. Our defence pairing have not worked overly well for us lately.

I think the common thought of a PMD paired with a shutdown D is the way to go. It's not, IMO. pairings are developed with chemistry. With these thoughts an explosive D > solid shutdown D. The explosiveness draws attention, which is a system that relies on constant attack. A shutdown D has no place in this type of system.

Edler > Garrison
Gardiner > Schenn/Gunnarson etc

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01-23-2013, 01:04 PM
  #7
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I think the common thought of a PMD paired with a shutdown D is the way to go. It's not, IMO. pairings are developed with chemistry. With these thoughts an explosive D > solid shutdown D. The explosiveness draws attention, which is a system that relies on constant attack. A shutdown D has no place in this type of system.

Edler > Garrison
Gardiner > Schenn/Gunnarson etc

My only issue when people refer to guys a PMD it makes then sound so one demensional. But i think the chemistry to players have is a better way to judge pairings or lines, like you say.

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01-23-2013, 01:06 PM
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Ya, a lot of Leafs fan were guilty of that. I think we have had some potential in the past, but unfortunatly I feel our parts are greater then the hole. Our defence pairing have not worked overly well for us lately.

Freudian slip?

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01-23-2013, 01:11 PM
  #9
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" don't see the problem with that? he WOULD be a 5 or 6 dman on vancouver. And it's not like we are weak there. We have a more pressing need for scoring forwards. I'm not sure why you are having issues with that...seems you are a bit sensitive to a perceived fualt where there is none."

Maybe I am sensitive to it, maybe I misunderstood? However reading hard pressed to crack top6, maybe 5-6 doesn't say to me he would be 5-6. Maybe it is the same reaction as to when other teams fans tell you Loungo is worthless. I am not nor have i said he is just to be clear. But you can only take your team being beat up and put down before a defensive reaction occurs. Comments such as "it is easy to get defensive when your team only has one good player", lol, which I can now not find, make it hard not to be.
As far as Gardiner goes I could say that IF we got him he would definitely be in the 5 spot with Tanev. I think he would easily be in the top four of most teams in the NHL. Its unrealistic but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Canuck fan that wouldn't be happy with that trade.

As far as "your team being beat up and down", you do realized you are talking to the fans of "the most hated team in the NHL right?

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01-23-2013, 01:17 PM
  #10
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My only issue when people refer to guys a PMD it makes then sound so one demensional. But i think the chemistry to players have is a better way to judge pairings or lines, like you say.
Yes, at some point you need to defend, if all you can do is move the puck, you're beat. Same with a shutdown d, if you can't make a good pass, you're done. Therefore chemistry is the way to judge a defenseman.

a well rounded defenseman is one that knows his position, has the ability to recover his position if needed, and can retrieve the puck from his opponents and make a smart move to head up ice. This requires speed, smarts and puck skills. Your average NHL defenseman has two of these attributes as strengths.

The special players have all three.

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01-23-2013, 01:32 PM
  #11
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Freudian slip?
lol, or typo?

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01-23-2013, 01:45 PM
  #12
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lol, or typo?
No I think I prefer the Freudian slip.

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01-23-2013, 01:51 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by baartman View Post
I think the common thought of a PMD paired with a shutdown D is the way to go. It's not, IMO. pairings are developed with chemistry. With these thoughts an explosive D > solid shutdown D. The explosiveness draws attention, which is a system that relies on constant attack. A shutdown D has no place in this type of system.

Edler > Garrison
Gardiner > Schenn/Gunnarson etc
Bingo.


Look at how Edler and Ehrhoff worked together. Neither is really known for their "defensive acumen", yet they combined for ~100 points/season.

Bieksa and Hamhuis are both refered to as "shutdown d-men" but I would call them both 2 way d-men (not many shutdown d can put up 40 points/season).

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01-23-2013, 01:55 PM
  #14
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My only issue when people refer to guys a PMD it makes then sound so one demensional. But i think the chemistry to players have is a better way to judge pairings or lines, like you say.
Agreed, theres too much of a line it seems. Your either a shutdown d-man or an offensive d-man.

People assume the best pairings are a "shutdown + offensive d-man" but I think that only happens when teams don't have a lot of depth/variety in their top-6.

Vancouver has Edler, and Ballard who I would consider offensive d-men.
- Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison who I would consider "2 way d-men" and Tanev as the lone shutdown d-man (w/ a beautiful 1st pass btw).

So really, you end up with
OD/TWD
TWD/TWD
OD/SD

And those 3 TWD are all capable of 40 points...

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01-23-2013, 01:58 PM
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This is a Luongo thread right?

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Old
01-23-2013, 01:59 PM
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So, where is Luongo heading guys?

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01-23-2013, 02:03 PM
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So, where is Luongo heading guys?
Not until the summer IMO which team that is..we'll see. Possibly Philly if they buy out Bryzgalov

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01-23-2013, 02:04 PM
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So, where is Luongo heading guys?
Calgary tonight i believe.

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Old
01-23-2013, 02:05 PM
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So, where is Luongo heading guys?
Not Toronto.

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01-23-2013, 02:05 PM
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So, where is Luongo heading guys?
Florida at the deadline.

For Scottie Upshall, Quinten Howden and a 4th in 2013

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01-23-2013, 02:05 PM
  #21
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I still like the NYI proposed deal of Nino, Nabokov/DP (dump), Vis (possible dump? rights to the guy this off season?) and what ever.

If that was ok'd by Edmonton fans, Gagner and Hemsky straight.

Chicago and Toronto don't want to contribute to creating a monster in Vancouver.

Did I miss any "can't miss" deals offered from fans of other fan bases?

EDIT: Philly and Florida not with standing, but I haven't heard a Flyers fan propose or even ok Hartnell or Couturier, and Florida is almost the same kind of deal as Chicago or Toronto, but can offer prospects we could make good use of and isn't in our conference.

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01-23-2013, 02:07 PM
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I still like the NYI proposed deal of Nino, Nabokov/DP (dump), Vis (possible dump? rights to the guy this off season?) and what ever.

If that was ok'd by Edmonton fans, Gagner and Hemsky straight.

Chicago and Toronto don't want to contribute to creating a monster in Vancouver.

Did I miss any "can't miss" deals offered from fans of other fan bases?
Detroit for Flip and a pick

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Old
01-23-2013, 02:08 PM
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Detroit for Flip and a pick
How high a pick? I don't see Flip taking a cut versus free agency to stay on the Canucks...

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01-23-2013, 02:09 PM
  #24
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I think the common thought of a PMD paired with a shutdown D is the way to go. It's not, IMO. pairings are developed with chemistry. With these thoughts an explosive D > solid shutdown D. The explosiveness draws attention, which is a system that relies on constant attack. A shutdown D has no place in this type of system.

Edler > Garrison
Gardiner > Schenn/Gunnarson etc
That's way to simple a way to look at it.

The Canucks most valuable dman is not Edler, it's Hamhuis. He is not an explosive dman, he's a shutdown dman. He plays with Bieksa, who puts up more points, and gets more icetime in offensive situation, and overall is a better offensive dman.

Hamhuis is a pure shutdown dman for the Canucks, and is the most valuable dman on the team. And this in a system that is known as an offensive one, with quick puck movement and skating from the back-end (something that both the GM and coach have talked about being important parts of their system).

For the Canucks, pairing a PMD with a shutdown dman has been the way to go. This is when they've had their most success overall as a pairing and shown the most chemistry in the past. We can go back to the Ohlund/Mitchell days and how they were paired with PMDs to see this. We clearly see this now with Hamhuis as well.

The problem usually isn't having a PMD with a shutdown guy, but having 2 guys that have developed chemistry and balance with each other. It isn't just about putting a PMD with a shutdown dman, it's about having a PMD who's skills mesh well with a shutdown dman, who's reads cover well for that PMD. Hamhuis provides this for Bieksa. We're hoping that Garrison can provide this for Edler.

This is why Gardiner won't fit in the Canucks top-4. He isn't going to displace Hamhuis obviously next to Bieksa, and he doesn't provide the defensive presence to cover for Edler, who is very much an offensive dman, and does have defensive warts that need to be covered for.

Gardiner would most definitely displace Ballard on the 3rd pairing, and would be better than Tanev, making him the team's 3rd pairing left side dman (should he be acquired). I just don't think at this stage in Gardiner's development, he's worth the cost to acquire him for this team. He's an upgrade over Ballard, but right now it's debatable how much of an upgrade he is. Obviously he has time on his side and will be a much better player when he hits his prime, but the Canucks aren't a team that can wait for him to hit his prime to get that impact from him. They are very much in win-now mode, and any team in win-now mode goes with the type of assets that fit their roster needs and roles right now - and Garrison does that. This team needed a tough, physical defensive presence in their top-4, given that Edler and Bieksa are often adventures in their own zone. They have that now in Garrison, and according to ALL Panthers fans he's been nothing short of stellar defensively since he stepped into the league. It was just his offensive game that came through last year - something we don't really need from him. Defensively he's been advertised as a tough, physical defensive rock since he came into the league.

2 games in, it's impossible to say what he's been in Vancouver, but so far there's no reason to think he's not what he was advertised to be.

And +/- is a terrible way to compare the defensive play of any dmen on different teams. Just looking +/- leaders in the league will tell you that. Last year we had guys like Boychuk, Kuba, Salvador, or Ericsson sitting well above noted shutdown dmen like Weber, Giradi, or Polak, you know that it won't tell you everything about their defensive games. Hell even players on the same team it won't always show well (given that players play against different competition on the same team). For example, last year's Norris winner, Karlsson, is known to have defensive warts, as strong as he is offensively. Is he better in his own zone than Chris Phillips? If you look just at +/- it would appear that way.

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Old
01-23-2013, 02:10 PM
  #25
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How high a pick? I don't see Flip taking a cut versus free agency to stay on the Canucks...
Maybe a conditional 2nd?

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