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True or False: The Salary Cap will bring the Leafs closer to the cup.

View Poll Results: A salary cap will bring Toronto closer to the Stanley cup
Yes 6 10.00%
I never though of that.. Maybe it works 7 11.67%
No 47 78.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-07-2005, 04:30 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
That isn't the point of this Thread .. Mac asked if Toronto has an advantage over other even with a Cap .. Toronto will still build its team like most of the reat will within the rules but because they have $$$ and the Toronto market, can fin a way to get a Pronger onto the roster creatively perhaps when Cap room is limited and a Cup is with in reach ..
When there is a cap there will be a rule against side deals used to circumvent it with heavy fines and possibly losses of draft picks for offenders. It won't be happening.

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03-07-2005, 04:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Recidivist
I never said NO endorsements were available, but you seriously can't argue that there are many endorsement deals like the Domi/Grapes nonsense, or Mats's mother and soup, or Mats/Gretzky of some years ago. The reality is that there are really quite few hockey player endorsements.
Too bad hockey players don't wear sneakers. Air Sundins anyone?
They get more endorsements then you realize. True they aren't quite as visible as NBA players who star in huge budget commercials.

But hockey players are endorsed by equipment companies all the time. Plus they get paid for all of those autograph sessions, appearances at events etc... May not sound like much but still it all adds up. And those Chunky Soup/ Quiznoz style endorsements aren't exactly peanuts.

But more significantly are the business opportunities that are in a hockey city like Toronto. Do you think Gary Roberts would have his Station Seven (sponsored by Reebok by the way) up and running if he was playing in Nashville?

Or would Tucker and Corson have established their line of clothing (Kewl) if they had played together in Carolina?

Furthermore, guys like Domi and Belfour have their own websites and have attempted to establish a brand for themselves. I think Eddie has even trademarked the eagle logo from his helmet. For those guys, the exposure they get in Toronto is definitely worth something to them.

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03-07-2005, 04:44 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
When there is a cap there will be a rule against side deals used to circumvent it with heavy fines and possibly losses of draft picks for offenders. It won't be happening.
I was actually talking to a friend about this on the weekend.

I'm sure the NHL will try its best, but like the NFL clubs find ways to lure players to their team with incentives such as the use of a company vehicle, say a Ferrari which the team leases and sells to the player for $100 at the end of the lease.

Or even the payment of services rendered to 1053267 Ontario Inc. for providing one years nutritional supplements to a player. But 1053267 Ontario Inc. just by co-incidence happens to be owned by a certain Bonnie and Carl for example.

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03-07-2005, 04:49 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
When there is a cap there will be a rule against side deals used to circumvent it with heavy fines and possibly losses of draft picks for offenders. It won't be happening.
What about my idea that I posted a couple months ago....

The Leafs buy out a player like Bryan McCabe for $4.0 million, then sign him to a $500,000 contract.

That sure would help them get under the cap. And I'm not sure how the NHL could limit the amount of money a team pays the player in a buyout situation.

I can't picture them actually doing something like this, but it's interesting to think about anyway.

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03-07-2005, 04:55 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
They get more endorsements then you realize. True they aren't quite as visible as NBA players who star in huge budget commercials.

But hockey players are endorsed by equipment companies all the time. Plus they get paid for all of those autograph sessions, appearances at events etc... May not sound like much but still it all adds up. And those Chunky Soup/ Quiznoz style endorsements aren't exactly peanuts.

But more significantly are the business opportunities that are in a hockey city like Toronto. Do you think Gary Roberts would have his Station Seven (sponsored by Reebok by the way) up and running if he was playing in Nashville?

Or would Tucker and Corson have established their line of clothing (Kewl) if they had played together in Carolina?

Furthermore, guys like Domi and Belfour have their own websites and have attempted to establish a brand for themselves. I think Eddie has even trademarked the eagle logo from his helmet. For those guys, the exposure they get in Toronto is definitely worth something to them.

It seems, once again, I must humbly stand corrected.

I did simplify the matter too much and your points about business opportunities beyond the commercials is well taken.

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03-07-2005, 04:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What about my idea that I posted a couple months ago....

The Leafs buy out a player like Bryan McCabe for $4.0 million, then sign him to a $500,000 contract.

That sure would help them get under the cap. And I'm not sure how the NHL could limit the amount of money a team pays the player in a buyout situation.

I can't picture them actually doing something like this, but it's interesting to think about anyway.
I think that there likely will end up being ways for a team to get over a cap if they want to pay a luxury tax. Or, have a player like Sundin renegotiate his deal so that it is spread over a number of years.

But the side deals take things out of the NHL and the NHLPA's control and for that reason I don't think that it would work because neither side wants deals that aren't governed by the CBA.

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03-07-2005, 05:11 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What about my idea that I posted a couple months ago....

The Leafs buy out a player like Bryan McCabe for $4.0 million, then sign him to a $500,000 contract.

That sure would help them get under the cap. And I'm not sure how the NHL could limit the amount of money a team pays the player in a buyout situation.

I can't picture them actually doing something like this, but it's interesting to think about anyway.
Look what Bettman that swindler put into his last proposal ..

Actually take a look at this Larry Brooks article of what is included in the 42.5 Hard Cap nunber that the Agents protested and called Bettman out on it ..

NHL'S SALARY CAP WAS ACTUALLY LESS

The Post has learned that the league's offer of a FINAL OFFER $42.5M team ceiling — that would have included a 50-percent tax beginning at $36M — featured the following elements that the NHL did not release to the public when it plastered the proposal on its various web sites:
  • All annual individual signing bonuses contained in contracts.
  • All personal achievement bonus payouts.
  • All contract buyouts.
  • All annual signing bonuses for players in Entry Level System.
  • All players on Injured Reserve.
  • All players in minor leagues earning over $75,000.
http://www.nypost.com/sports/41703.htm


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03-07-2005, 05:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
When there is a cap there will be a rule against side deals used to circumvent it with heavy fines and possibly losses of draft picks for offenders. It won't be happening.
How in the world would the NHL prove it .. I made mine for fun to look very obvious ..

In real life they would be making public announcements ..

If Say Chris Pronger signed a deal with the Leafs at 2.5 Mil season to fit under a cap and MLSE wired money into a Grand Cayman Island (off Shore) bank account .. How would the NHL know .. You think they got guys running around checking every business transaction .. They get the official contract and approve it ..

The NFL used endorsement deals .. My Dallas Cowboys signed Deon Sanders to a very Cap Friendly deal but found/ created a endosement deal that paid him Millions .. The NFL new about and challenged it, but it stood up against all CBA rules because the NFL can't control what a player does outside of game .. The Cowboys took adavantage of their market just as MAc here is suggesting that City of Toronto or even Canada can provide to a Hockey player that Columbus, Nashville, Atlanta can ..

Don't forget the point isn't necessarily designed to avoid a Cap, it be used as nothing more then a lure to the city .. A player could take less or equal money then a Small Market if he realizes he has other avenues to make income as well in the city he plays .. Mats Sundin would not have have any Soups deals if he played all these years in Anaheim ..

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03-07-2005, 06:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Recidivist
I never said NO endorsements were available, but you seriously can't argue that there are many endorsement deals like the Domi/Grapes nonsense, or Mats's mother and soup, or Mats/Gretzky of some years ago. The reality is that there are really quite few hockey player endorsements.

Too bad hockey players don't wear sneakers. Air Sundins anyone?
Hockey Players wear sneakers to and from the rink ...

Watch for a Huge endorsement deal for Crosby and someone like Reebok ..

Remember you heard it here first ... I am always ahead of the pack and thinking outside box ...

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03-07-2005, 06:41 PM
  #35
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The Messenger: Other teams/GM's/Owners would know whats going on. When the league was still on linkage Bettman promised the NHLPA that if they had a problem with any of the owners number's they would open up the books. If some owners/GM's complained about a team paying a players wife to complement what they are paying the player the league would open up the teams books. It just won't happen. And if MLSE wanted/could get around a cap that would they would have done it by now with the Raptors

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03-07-2005, 06:54 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: Other teams/GM's/Owners would know whats going on. When the league was still on linkage Bettman promised the NHLPA that if they had a problem with any of the owners number's they would open up the books. If some owners/GM's complained about a team paying a players wife to complement what they are paying the player the league would open up the teams books. It just won't happen. And if MLSE wanted/could get around a cap that would they would have done it by now with the Raptors
That suggestion is not likely to happen I agree ....but remember what open the books means ..

Its only specific to the Leafs and the Hockey business .. If the players wife is paid through another company under the MLSE umbrella like say the Raptors office staff then opening the Hockey books will not reveal that.

Lets say the Leafs set up a huge Reebok endorsement deal for Crosby first ..

So that he gets a MULTI-MILLION dollar payout over many years ... .and then in few months sign him as a Replacement player and get him under contract .. First the REEBOK deal would never show up on the Leafs books and then only his HOCKEY part will be ..

How could the NHL prevent this from happening .. and what has the Leafs done wrong ??

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03-07-2005, 10:39 PM
  #37
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The Messenger: First I dunno if the Raptor's would be on the books if the NHL went after the MLSE numbers if they could get the whole companies books. If they can't get the whole companies records it wouldn't be on the books, but the other ownres and GM's would know/find out about the the NHL would punish a team doing that. Theres a reason the wives of the Raptor players aren't the Leafs payrole.

It will always come back to the other owners and GM's watching each other. The Penguins, for example, are not going to go through this lock out ot watch the Leafs and Wings sign keep on signing all the top UFA's and nothing changing. It just won't happen. If it was possible for MLSE to do this, or they were willing to do it we wouldn't see them let players like Keon Clark go cause they don't have cap room. Or we'd see the NY Gaint's with the top NFL talent. Teams can use some "under the table money" to keep a franchise player but in no sport with a salary cap do we see a getting completely around the cap cause its not possible. You can dream about it if you want, but its just a fantasy, at least on the scale you are talking about.

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03-07-2005, 11:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: First I dunno if the Raptor's would be on the books if the NHL went after the MLSE numbers if they could get the whole companies books. If they can't get the whole companies records it wouldn't be on the books, but the other ownres and GM's would know/find out about the the NHL would punish a team doing that. Theres a reason the wives of the Raptor players aren't the Leafs payrole.

It will always come back to the other owners and GM's watching each other. The Penguins, for example, are not going to go through this lock out ot watch the Leafs and Wings sign keep on signing all the top UFA's and nothing changing. It just won't happen. If it was possible for MLSE to do this, or they were willing to do it we wouldn't see them let players like Keon Clark go cause they don't have cap room. Or we'd see the NY Gaint's with the top NFL talent. Teams can use some "under the table money" to keep a franchise player but in no sport with a salary cap do we see a getting completely around the cap cause its not possible. You can dream about it if you want, but its just a fantasy, at least on the scale you are talking about.
Why do you continue to focus on the wife options only .. Company Endorsements are the best and legal option of getting around a cap if need be ..

Did you happen to catch this Article ??:

Sidney Crosby will skate at the Air Canada Centre in Toronto on Tuesday as part of the Reebok promotion.

Sidney Crosby is the face of hockey's future, and Reebok will pay accordingly.

Sportsnet has learned Crosby and Reebok have agreed to a five-year, multi-million dollar endorsement deal with an option for a sixth year.

While, this partnership will be announced Tuesday in Toronto, sources say, financially this deal tops the scales, and exceeds any previous arrangements some of the game's greats like Gretzky and Lemieux would have signed at the height of their careers.

Full Article: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20050307_180820_5024

Now if the Leafs were to sign Crosby down the road (Replacement player) how can an endorsement like this ever be tied to the Leafs as its not on MLSE books, and a valid CBA is not it place anyways .. ????

The best the league could think is that was awfully nice of MLSE to Fly Crosby into Toronto and open the ACC doors to let him promote his new Reebok gear ..

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03-07-2005, 11:11 PM
  #39
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The Messenger: Could it doesn't matter which under the table plan you've come up with, it won't happen. Why didn't MLSE do something like that to keep Keon Clark? Why don't the NY Giant's do it to sign away all of Green Bay's good players? Why didn't the Lakers do it to give Kobe someone to play with this year after Shaq left? And if the other owners suspect the Leafs did that, and I doubt they did Crosby didn't need any help getting an endorsement deal they would come under investagation by the NHL, if ANY trace was found between the two the Leafs would punished. If the Leafs could just gets deals like that why didn't get some deal for Clark so they could afford to keep him in Toronto?

Its a nice fantasy but it simply doesn't happen in pro sports. Crosby got his deal all on his own.

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03-07-2005, 11:38 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: Could it doesn't matter which under the table plan you've come up with, it won't happen. Why didn't MLSE do something like that to keep Keon Clark? Why don't the NY Giant's do it to sign away all of Green Bay's good players? Why didn't the Lakers do it to give Kobe someone to play with this year after Shaq left? And if the other owners suspect the Leafs did that, and I doubt they did Crosby didn't need any help getting an endorsement deal they would come under investagation by the NHL, if ANY trace was found between the two the Leafs would punished. If the Leafs could just gets deals like that why didn't get some deal for Clark so they could afford to keep him in Toronto?

Its a nice fantasy but it simply doesn't happen in pro sports. Crosby got his deal all on his own.
How other organizations run their businesses is not a concern in the discussion .. To Owners its all about making money bottom line .. Some of the suggestion you suggest are not happening even if they wanted to because avoiding a Cap figure only makes sense if you are still making money..

KOBE SHAQ had more problems then just a cap and hate each other and are a distraction .. The raptors are not the Leafs and they have to run their businesses differently .. Why did they trade Vince for such a poor return ??

The NFL is a different world as well they have profit sharing and Franchise tag to non-guaranteed contracts .. all legal ways with the system to free up cap room and still make money, and the Players have nearly UFA all the time to move around..and the NFL is famous for deferred contracts ..The Player simple renegotiates his deal to continue at a lower amount when playing but is paid years after he no longer is with the team .. Troy Aikman still counts against the Cowboys cap number and he hasn't played in years ..

The NHL does not have this in any proposal yet.. So you can't simply cut a player to bring in a new one to get below a cap figure, or declare you best player or most expensive salary as the Franchise tag and not count to the cap .. NFL have so many options within the systems you do not need to find creative ways around it.

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03-07-2005, 11:59 PM
  #41
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The Messenger: How other owners, and even the ones at MLSE, have conducted business in the past under a salary cap does concern this discussion, unless of course you think you are smarter then every owner and GM in every sports league with a salary cap and are the first person to think of this. If the type of under the table deals and pay outs you are talking are possible for a sports team to make under a salary system then we would see examples of them in other sports. But we don't. We do not see Green Bay stripped of talent while the Giants have all the top talent. I know players can be cut in the NFL and all the ways to keep players, but teams still have to let good players go at times cause they don't have cap space for them anymore. NE, for example, just let Ty Law go cause they couldn't afford to keep him with the cap, if it was possible to give him a new sports car, or his wife a job, or get an endorsement deal or make a big payment to a European bank account why wouldn't they have done that and kept their top CB? Or why don't we see all pro-bowl teams that come in under the cap, but where all the players are paid under the table using the method's you're coming up with here? Because they can't, those types of deals wouldn't fly, owners watch each other and the league wouldn't allow it to happen.

I did not say the Lakers could have used loop holes like that to keep Shaq and Kobe, but to replace Shaq when he left so the team wasn't Kobe and 11 warm bodies, but they didn't cause they couldn't. The Raptors are owned by the same company as the Leafs, its all the same money, if the Raptors make the playoffs its more money for the teachers. If those types of moves were possible MLSE would have done them with the basketball team by now.

I've said twice already, these theories are dreams and fantasies and if you want to keep taking about them go a head. Thats my final word on the subject.

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03-08-2005, 12:36 AM
  #42
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Yes because the patchwork system won't work anymore and Toronto will hopefully concentrate on building a future contender that doesn't have its wheels fall off mid second/third round.

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03-08-2005, 12:45 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by emillie
The Messenger: How other owners, and even the ones at MLSE, have conducted business in the past under a salary cap does concern this discussion, unless of course you think you are smarter then every owner and GM in every sports league with a salary cap and are the first person to think of this. If the type of under the table deals and pay outs you are talking are possible for a sports team to make under a salary system then we would see examples of them in other sports. But we don't. We do not see Green Bay stripped of talent while the Giants have all the top talent. I know players can be cut in the NFL and all the ways to keep players, but teams still have to let good players go at times cause they don't have cap space for them anymore. NE, for example, just let Ty Law go cause they couldn't afford to keep him with the cap, if it was possible to give him a new sports car, or his wife a job, or get an endorsement deal or make a big payment to a European bank account why wouldn't they have done that and kept their top CB? Or why don't we see all pro-bowl teams that come in under the cap, but where all the players are paid under the table using the method's you're coming up with here? Because they can't, those types of deals wouldn't fly, owners watch each other and the league wouldn't allow it to happen.

I did not say the Lakers could have used loop holes like that to keep Shaq and Kobe, but to replace Shaq when he left so the team wasn't Kobe and 11 warm bodies, but they didn't cause they couldn't. The Raptors are owned by the same company as the Leafs, its all the same money, if the Raptors make the playoffs its more money for the teachers. If those types of moves were possible MLSE would have done them with the basketball team by now.

I've said twice already, these theories are dreams and fantasies and if you want to keep taking about them go a head. Thats my final word on the subject.
You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but you are clearly missing the point of this whole thread ..

Brett Favre does not want to go anywhere and the team slaps him with a Franchise tag and he can go no where .. Now how you feel that they do not have major turnover I am not sure .. But they are a small market and are supported via revenue sharing to pay for a full team .. The packers do not have a consistent identity and NY Giants no matter how much money they have can't steal players under contract .. Ahman Green and Brett Favre are really the only two main players that have remained with the team other than rookies on 3 year entry level deals .. Who really has been there for any length of time Sterling Sharpe, Reggie White, Leroy Butler, Willam Henderson, Antonio Freeman, Ryan Longwell, in the past 10 years .. I don;t really see them have and identity at all ..

Ty Law is a great player but he was hurt for a large portion of the season,and all the playoffs and NE still won with out him .. QB Brady is now due for a contract renewal after leading his team to 3 Super bowls in 4 years .. They need him more then they need Ty Law .. so Laws job goes to the player on the roster that won the Super Bowl .. Now I am not sure if you understand how the NFL draft works, but each player drafted is paid based on his draft position..no end arounds, So with the draft coming up the Patriots need to free up cap room for its new batch of young players .. Unlike the NHL there is no Farm team, or leave them in Junior for a year or two .. When you are drafted into the NFL you make the team immediately and count towards a Cap .. That requires you have and make cap room each year. Also teams draft 100% by need and not Best player Available like the NHL .. So by letting law go and being fairly set at Offense with Brady, Dillion, Dieon Branch, David Givens returning and they landed Pro Bowler SS Rodney Harrison so the loss of Law and his $$$ will be replaced via the draft .. The NFL is different game and different rules. SO I don't see or follow your argument .. NE wanted to and needed to release Law its not about keeping him .. Just like the leafs are going to let Mogilny walk not because they can't afford him, or he is not a good player ..

Bottom line you keep missing is that the NFL allows you to renegotiate contracts and defer money, if the player accepts .. So there is not need to be creative if the system provides you with means to keep players if you want to .. You don't need to hire the wife if the player contract can be reworked within the system ..

Name a single player in the NHL that has renegotiated his guaranteed contract to the team to bring in more players. NHL teams are forced to trade players they can't afford.. Doug Weight didn't come to Edmonton and say I will lower my Salary so you can keep me and have a better team.?? Did Iginla say rework my contract Calgary so we can keep my centre Conroy .. Nope doesn't happen

I can't think of a single one that is working on a differed contract, now retired and still getting paid other then a long-term injury claim like Pavel Bure perhaps ..

You really can't compare different sports when the rules are so different and what works for one does not work another. IMO


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03-08-2005, 01:00 AM
  #44
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Did Iginla say rework my contract Calgary so we can keep my centre Conroy .. Nope doesn't happen
Not meaning to butt in here but.....................
Iginla and at least 1 or 2 other flames(names escape me at the moment) offered to give money from their contracts back to the flames so they could/would sign Dave Lowry.I'm not talking millions of dollars obviously,but it was a decent and noteworthy gesture that i found rather admirable.

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03-08-2005, 08:35 AM
  #45
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I know the Giants cannot steal players under contract, but if the type under the table payments you are talking about possible in a salary cap system why don't they end up with all the top UFA's, since they have the most money out of the NFL (or at least among the top money makers)? I know they cannot get players already under contract, but they do not get all the top UFA's. Don't pretend like no player gets cut in the NFL cause the team has to get under the cap, it happens all the time. If they could get the around the cap like you're suggesting we'd never see it happen. Why has no NFL team signed a whole team to 1 million each and put together a team of nothing but superstar UFA's? Its not possible. Same with the NBA. If those types of payouts were possible the Lakers would have 12 allstars all earning 3 million a year.

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03-08-2005, 08:50 AM
  #46
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Only reason the Leafs have been competitive is their fans financial support.

Now they'll have nothing going for them.

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03-08-2005, 09:10 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by ULF_55
Only reason the Leafs have been competitive is their fans financial support.

Now they'll have nothing going for them.
Oh, the humanity!

After the team goes spiralling into the abyss they will at least have some very high draft picks when they reach the bottom.

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03-08-2005, 09:16 AM
  #48
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ULF_55: I tend to take a more positive view of things. Hopefully MLSE will spend some of the movey saved by a cap on scouting and development and that will still be able to use their money as an advantage, just ina different way.

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03-08-2005, 09:49 AM
  #49
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I'm one of the few who voted "yes".

My reasoning is that the cap will finally force the Leafs to put their money and efforts into where it really counts - scouting and development. They are doing so. This puts them closer to a Cup.

With the inevitably lowered UFA age, we will have access to prime-aged stars on the open market. That makes our money worth a lot more. This puts them closer as well.

The other thing about the cap is you have to remember that no matter what the ceiling is, we will still be at the very top of the scale. A lot of teams won't be.

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03-08-2005, 09:51 AM
  #50
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Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 56,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Oh, the humanity!

After the team goes spiralling into the abyss they will at least have some very high draft picks when they reach the bottom.
Yep, have a great history in that regard, eh?

Teachers will be happy.

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