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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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01-23-2013, 11:56 PM
  #226
Jaded-Fan
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Jaded, they are TWO different needs, and they will cost TWO different types of packages.

Are you saying don't address the lesser concern until or unless you address the primary concern? That seems a little short sighted.

I've said NOTHING here but getting Sid a RW is the only absolute must for Ray Shero before this year's deadline. It doesn't change or affect the fact that finding Geno and Neal a third wheel is a secondary issue for this team or that adding to the defense may turn out to be an equal or more pressing concern.

****, I was saying the exact same thing LAST YEAR (get Sid real help, otherwise he won't exploit the advantage of teams keying on Kunitz-Geno-Neal), before Sid came back, when people like you were saying 'we're the highest scoring team in the league, we don't need more offense'.
I honestly just think that the cost was prohibitive. No reasonable deals out there. Though signing Semin would have cost nothing. Was stupid on Shero's part not to do it.

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01-23-2013, 11:56 PM
  #227
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Was a great game until we started falling apart at the end there. I was really impressed with Kunitz's physical play (penalties aside), Gradi had some good chances I just think he needs some more ice time and a solid role on this team. Good to see Sid & Geno score, hopefully that will get the ball rolling from here on out.

Can't wait for Friday's game!

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01-23-2013, 11:56 PM
  #228
IcedCapp
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Here's where you lose me. Effort matters until it becomes an excuse for failure to execute. It isn't there yet. If there's more failure by this deadline and an early playoff exit, then I don't see how Shero still would be 100% secure in his position. It doesn't mean he'd be fired. It just means that I can't see Mario and Burkle being too enamored by hearing 'well, I tried to do something' after another wasted year of Sid and Geno.

And, again, I think Shero will be a player this year. At least I hope he will be . . .
Ray Shero cannot FORCE people to make a trade. I don't see how you can think that. Do you just want him to make a bad deal for the sake of making a deal?

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01-23-2013, 11:58 PM
  #229
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The team needs a scapegoat. Martin is playing better... So blame the guy who hasn't solved the Pens ongoing winger problem after three games and barely played. Sounds reasonable. Gotta get rid of him and bring up all of those fwd prospects bursting through the pipe.

Hopefully he is put with Vitale soon and allowed to actually work his way through the lineup without the pressure of being the savior for a problem he didn't create.

Anyway...

I thought Despres looked sold tonight. He threw out a couple big hits and stripped Kessel on a 1-1 play. He was doing a much better job of angling his man to the boards and keeping himself between the man and the net. He was pulling up much better as well when his man hit the brakes, giving much less room than the last two games.

He had no big errors playing the puck and didnt try to overcompensate when Engo was struggling.

Really happy with his game tonight.
You know I don't think Tangradi didn't create the problem. He's exhibit A of how NOT to manage the development of a prospect. But, it's pretty clear that there were some issues in terms of his play beyond Geno not trusting him. Maybe you flip him and Glass for now. Maybe that's the cleanest way to handle it for now. Then again, you and I both know Tangradi is getting scratched and that Jeffrey will be in his place next game.

Great call, by the way, on Despres, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's noticed Engo's disappointing play (IMO, it's not just tonight).

Oh, by the way, I didn't give Vitale a PLUS tonight. No need. It's assumed.

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01-24-2013, 12:00 AM
  #230
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None of us know whats gonna happen but I would think its pretty unlikely pens r gonna make any sort of big trade for a top winger or def. At best its prob gonna be somebody like guerin. Last year was such a buyers market because almost everybody was in the race Its prob gonna be the same this season. Paul gausted went for a 1st rd pick. And all this talk about trading for kulemin is crazy they just lost one of there best wingers for a long time.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:01 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Ray Shero cannot FORCE people to make a trade. I don't see how you can think that. Do you just want him to make a bad deal for the sake of making a deal?
Ugh, I give up. Where the **** did I say Ray Shero can force anyone to do anything?

I have gathered that you enjoy straw men arguments, but really. It's getting a little tiresome.

So, I'll leave you with this question: What is the statute of limitations on Shero's case that he can't force someone to trade him a winger for Crosby or for a free agent to sign with the Pens before ownership (or a fan) is allowed to ask 'are you doing enough to try'?

Anyway, let me know, and I'll just defer to your legal expertise from here.

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01-24-2013, 12:02 AM
  #232
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I honestly just think that the cost was prohibitive. No reasonable deals out there. Though signing Semin would have cost nothing. Was stupid on Shero's part not to do it.
again, do you know why he didn't do it? Do you know if he tried? Did he make an offer? I agree it's a shame we couldn't get him. But calling him stupid for not doing it is a completely baseless claim.

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01-24-2013, 12:03 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Ugh, I give up. Where the **** did I say Ray Shero can force anyone to do anything?

I have gathered that you enjoy straw men arguments, but really. It's getting a little tiresome.

So, I'll leave you with this question: What is the statute of limitations on Shero's case that he can't force someone to trade him a winger for Crosby or for a free agent to sign with the Pens before ownership (or a fan) is allowed to ask 'are you doing enough to try'?

Anyway, let me know, and I'll just defer to your legal expertise from here.

Quote:
Here's where you lose me. Effort matters until it becomes an excuse for failure to execute. It isn't there yet. If there's more failure by this deadline and an early playoff exit, then I don't see how Shero still would be 100% secure in his position. It doesn't mean he'd be fired. It just means that I can't see Mario and Burkle being too enamored by hearing 'well, I tried to do something' after another wasted year of Sid and Geno.

And, again, I think Shero will be a player this year. At least I hope he will be . . .
What are you getting at here, if you're not saying "he's not doing anything, so effort is just an excuse"

?

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01-24-2013, 12:04 AM
  #234
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again, do you know why he didn't do it? Do you know if he tried? Did he make an offer? I agree it's a shame we couldn't get him. There is absolutely not evidence to support a claim that Shero was stupid not to do it.
I am assuming that Semin could have been had for the right amount. What he got from Carolina. Maybe that is a wrong assumption, but it is a logical one.

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01-24-2013, 12:06 AM
  #235
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I honestly just think that the cost was prohibitive. No reasonable deals out there. Though signing Semin would have cost nothing. Was stupid on Shero's part not to do it.
Jaded, I don't doubt that it's a reasonable argument. And, you know, you can even debate things like Semin.

BUT, IMO, this is the year for Shero. He missed out on Parise. Fine. It happens.

At the same time, as I wrote a few pages ago, he's got 7 assets (the five defensemen, Bennett, and the first in this deep draft) worth more than any one piece he gave for Hossa. He's got another 4-5 pieces (Dumoulin, the second in this deep draft and probably two or three other pieces) worth more than anything except the 1st and Esposito that he gave for Hossa.

At some point, you have to give to get.

I mean, if I could get Iginla and Glencross, and Calgary said they wanted TK, Bennett, and Pouliot (a defenseman they really coveted at the draft) to make it happen, then I'd make that deal, even though Iginla could be gone in a flash.

I just think Sid and Geno deserve it at long last. Both of them. The second and third wheels each.

Shero has collected so many assets. IMO, he should gamble with a few of them on the only two sure things he's really got.

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01-24-2013, 12:06 AM
  #236
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I am assuming that Semin could have been had for the right amount. What he got from Carolina. Maybe that is a wrong assumption, but it is a logical one.
is it? we have a coach who has pretty blatantly preferred hard working guys and who is clearly not a fan of floating sniper types. We have a team full of players who he has publicly stated his dislike of and a fanbase who has taunted him for years. I think its just as logical to think that Semin wanted nothing to do with us.

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01-24-2013, 12:06 AM
  #237
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I would have liked to see Semin signed for sure. But I'd just like to point out that your problem with Shero is based almost entirely on speculation.
Of course this is based on speculation, but it doesn't matter because really there aren't that many possibilities :

Either Shero tried to get this guys or not : if he didn't try, then I have a problem with him.
Let's say he tried.
Maybe Shero didn't offer them enough, which would be, looking at the deals they signed(7M semin, 4.5M 2 years Whitney) not that much, given our cap space this year/the term of their deals.
Then I also have a problem with Shero not giving them as much or even a little bit more.

Then there's the possibility they didn't want to come but, if this is a quite reasonable assumption in Whitney's case, really, I can't see it in Semin's.
Come on, the guy went to Carolina -> Highest bidder.

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01-24-2013, 12:07 AM
  #238
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is it? we have a coach who has pretty blatantly preferred hard working guys and who is clearly not a fan of floating sniper types. We have a team who he has disliked for the majority of his career and a fanbase who has taunted him for years. I think its just as logical to think that Semin wanted nothing to do with us.
I must have missed Semin floating in the playoffs last year.

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01-24-2013, 12:09 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
Of course this is based on speculation, but it doesn't matter because really there aren't that many possibilities :

Either Shero tried to get this guys or not : if he didn't try, then I have a problem with him.
Let's say he tried.
Maybe Shero didn't offer them enough, which would be, looking at the deals they signed(7M semin, 4.5M 2 years Whitney) not that much, given our cap space this year/the term of their deals.
Then I also have a problem with Shero not giving them as much or even a little bit more.

Then there's the possibility they didn't want to come but, if this is a quite reasonable assumption in Whitney's case, really, I can't see it in Semin's.
Come on, the guy went to Carolina -> Highest bidder.
or Carolina -> team where he can ride a little bit under the radar as far as media attention goes while still playing with a great player like Staal with good weather, decent travel and less pressure.

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01-24-2013, 12:09 AM
  #240
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Why are we crying over spilled Sem.....milk? I think Shero's tried plenty of times to have as flawless a top 6 as the cap will allow. I also think this is the first time in awhile he's had this kind of leeway with the cap and some assets/futures a lesser team would want. Let's see what he does. It's just my opinion of course but I'd rather read/talk about something a little more in the here and now.

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01-24-2013, 12:09 AM
  #241
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What are you getting at here, if you're not saying "he's not doing anything, so effort is just an excuse"

?
No, I'm saying at some point, results matter, and why you're not getting results becomes less important than the fact that you're not getting them. Are we there yet? Nope. But another whiff before the trade deadline and a one and done in the playoffs. Does that change it? As I said, it doesn't mean that Shero gets fired, but I also think it means the guy isn't 100% secure.

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01-24-2013, 12:09 AM
  #242
Ogrezilla
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I must have missed Semin floating in the playoffs last year.
he didn't. but can you honestly tell me that Semin is the kind of player that Bylsma would like? Floating or not; he fits the stereotype of soft, fancy euro as well as anybody in the league.

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01-24-2013, 12:10 AM
  #243
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So.. Semin was the difference in this game? Yeah.. I see. That definitely covers the goaltender interference. That also covers some sloppy give-aways.

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01-24-2013, 12:11 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by underratedbrooks44 View Post
why are we crying over spilled sem.....milk? i think shero's tried plenty of times to have as flawless a top 6 as the cap will allow. I also think this is the first time in awhile he's had this kind of leeway with the cap and some assets/futures a lesser team would want. Let's see what he does. It's just my opinion of course but i'd rather read/talk about something a little more in the here and now.
rofl

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01-24-2013, 12:11 AM
  #245
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So.. Semin was the difference in this game? Yeah.. I see. That definitely covers the goaltender interference. That also covers some sloppy give-aways.

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01-24-2013, 12:12 AM
  #246
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So.. Semin was the difference in this game? Yeah.. I see. That definitely covers the goaltender interference. That also covers some sloppy give-aways.
C'mon Cole. Do you really think THAT is what Jaded, the person who mentioned Semin initially, meant?

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01-24-2013, 12:12 AM
  #247
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Come on, folks. This is one regular season meaningless game. Don't get caught up in drama. Don't let 1 or 2 trolls get ya.

It's good to need to work on something. We are still 2-1 and got Winnipeg and Ottawa coming up.
...and lets give Phaneuf some credit. He had a really nice game tonight. The entire defense took away time and space.

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01-24-2013, 12:13 AM
  #248
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he didn't. but can you honestly tell me that Semin is the kind of player that Bylsma would like? Floating or not; he fits the stereotype of soft, fancy euro as well as anybody in the league.
No. Lots of players don't seem to fit the prototype of what Bylsma likes. Of course, if you really want to be technical, one of them is one of his superstar centers.

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01-24-2013, 12:13 AM
  #249
IcedCapp
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No, I'm saying at some point, results matter, and why you're not getting results becomes less important than the fact that you're not getting them. Are we there yet? Nope. But another whiff before the trade deadline and a one and done in the playoffs. Does that change it? As I said, it doesn't mean that Shero gets fired, but I also think it means the guy isn't 100% secure.
Which leads me back to:

Shero can only do what others will capitulate to. I want him to pull off deadline deals, I want wingerz, I want to make awesome trades, and I want to win 42 stanley cups - THIS YEAR. Hell, I even want Shero to trade for Potato, just to see how well he'd (As I type this, Steve Sullivan gets a hat trick!) do with Geno!

But the fact that he's not making [bad] deals shouldn't be held against him. What player has he missed out on the past 2 seasons that was available and he didn't try to get?

I mean, isn't the list ONLY Semin?

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01-24-2013, 12:16 AM
  #250
Ogrezilla
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No. Lots of players don't seem to fit the prototype of what Bylsma likes. Of course, if you really want to be technical, one of them is one of his superstar centers.
Well if you are a player who fits the prototype of what a coach doesn't like -- along with the other reasons he might not want to play here like publicly admitting he doesn't like our players or possibly wanting less pressure/media attention -- isn't it just as likely that Shero did try to get him and he simply didn't want to come here? It's just as logical a conclusion as Shero not offering him anything at all. And there is just as much evidence to support both and that is one simple thing: he isn't here.

Its the same argument I brought up the other day about you saying it was a mistake not to trade for Malone when we have no idea if Malone was even available.

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