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Old
01-23-2013, 09:31 PM
  #126
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James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Potato and Malkin are chatting in the hallway here outside the Pens room.

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01-23-2013, 09:32 PM
  #127
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The game is on again if you dare.

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01-23-2013, 09:32 PM
  #128
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Man, and I just saw a replay of the Leafs first goal (was on my way back from my own game)

How in Christ's name is that not goalie interference? Did the Pens at least try to make a stink of this?
Pretty sure that was Englland who ran Fleury over no? Or was he pushed in?

EDIT: Yeah a cheeky play by Kulemin there.

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01-23-2013, 09:33 PM
  #129
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james mirtle ‏@mirtle
potato and malkin are chatting in the hallway here outside the pens room.
lol ♥

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01-23-2013, 09:33 PM
  #130
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So in 1 game we went from planning the parade to tanking for Seth Jones? Awesome.

It's gonna take a week or two at least for these guys to start clicking like it was a normal January/February. As long as they don't completely implode (not happening) they'll be fine.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:34 PM
  #131
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+ Vitale
--------- Tangradi. It's becoming a joke, he's horrible. I'd put him on waivers and HOPE someone picks him up. I've seen Malkin get in his face at least 3 times this season about his horrid play.
- Neal on the point on the PP. If you're on the point you HAVE to be able to control the puck coming around the boards, he can't. Just end the experiment now (it WILL end eventually, but Bylsma will drag it on).
- Malkin playing in the KHL. Not a big deal, but he hasn't adjusted to NHL skill yet. He will soon.
- Bylsma's 3,343,135 line combinations. Just pick some *** lines and play hockey

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01-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #132
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The Hossa deal was an exception, not a rule. There aren't stud 1st liners that are definitely leaving their teams every year. With the proliferation of long, back-diving contracts, and now a CBA that rewards players for re-signing with their current team, players have been staying with their teams more and more, and the FA/available pool has been drying up more and more.

I don't think the Pens will be able to do this via the Hossa route, they'll have to go the "James Neal route", which is fine, but who is the Goligoski on this team now, Matt Niskanen?

Otherwise, I think you're talking about a combination of your "blue chip" guys.

Further, and also touching on the 2nd half of #4: do you not think Shero is trying daily to get something done? They were obviously in hard on Parise (that's what she said), I'm almost positive they were the team in on Dustin Brown last year until someone let the cat out of the bag and f'd it up. And I'm positive that Shero has been in on everything else that could possibly serve this team's needs. He's an aggressive guy, and he knows, better than all of us, what their issues are.



Well let's replace Kulemin with "Potato", then, just for a bit? Because hearing about Malkin and Potato's great chemistry over and over seems a bit like beating your head against the wall to alleviate a headache. Potato isn't coming here.

Wait, this got all screwy. And now I'm hungry.



I agree that they can make it work under the cap, I've never said otherwise. Do think that they are going to be unwilling to part with as many assets that they'd need to to acquire all of your wants.

??? I'm all for playing the young kids. But I'm also for patience. We've reached the end of Tangradi's time on the Pens 2nd line after 2.5 games. I mean, OK. I think that's ridiculous, but in a way, if it means I never have to read another passive-aggressive, "I'm going to be patient with this kid, but he needs to be on the next flight to Neptune" post, it'll almost be worth it.

By the way, I'm sooooo for playing young kids, that I'm really not in favor of trading a lot of them - if you have true stud defenseman in your system that you hold on to them, because outside of Letang, the Pens lack dynamic guys on the back end.

This is a personal issue for me, but James Neal is far and away the 3rd-best forward on the Penguins. And Malkin is supposed to be 1a or 1b. I really get tired of reading how his line needs to be sculpted down to the stitching on the back of his linemate's sweater after every game.

Just as I keep reading that Sid is good enough to perform with Dupuis and Kunitz, Malkin is good enough to perform with Neal and Tangradi, or Kennedy, or Cooke, or you, or me, or Elmo. A better "3rd wheel" wasn't fixing his performance tonight. (AND I LOVE MALKIN, and I don't care that he had a bad game, almost everyone did, it happens. Just saying wingers won't fix everything that was wrong with this team tonight)[/QUOTE]

ROFL on the food groups. Two quick things:

1. I do think Shero is trying to do something. What, I don't know. But, he sure has the assets to do something.

2. Don't confuse me with some people here. I was saying last year 'Sid and Geno, two good wingers each, and anything is possible'. I said it before the season started. I said it after the weekend wins. And, I'm saying it now. It's not about one game. It's about an organization built on the advantage of having the two best centers in hockey not exploiting that advantage. I'll put it another way: IF Sid and Geno both had two good wingers each, then what team shuts that down in a playoff series? Maybe someone could, but you'd think anything is possible, no?


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Old
01-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #133
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An explosively divisive issue...
There are several here who mentions Fleury as a plus today. It frustrates/baffles me.
Right with you on that but that's usually the case with MAF around here. Sometimes the team needs one of the highest paid goalies in the league to make consistently difficult saves to win games. Reimer did that today. I hate "none of the goals on on him" mentality that constantly gets thrown around. Not even talking about this game in particular with this mantra, cause no one is going to stop the goal where Engelland barreled into him, just in general that gets thrown out way too much.

I've done a ton of statistical analysis on MAF's career, career in relations to his backups, in relation to his contemporaries, read research concerning the quality of shot a goalie faces (Marc-Andre Super Shot Theory and the needle in the craw of anyone criticizing him) and suffice to say, he's not a great goalie. He's a solid enough guy that you can win with him when the other facets of the team are really playing well, but he's not a top 8-10 goalie and is a huge question mark in the playoffs.

I would bet anything that by the end of the year, Vokoun will have clearly superior numbers, clearly superior being a gaa better by .10 or more and a save% that is 4-5 pts better in a similar amount of games, than MAF. MAF just gets such a ton of leeway among the fanbase. I hope I'm wrong and he turns in a truly great season, I just don't expect to see it happen.


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Old
01-23-2013, 09:36 PM
  #134
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+ Vitale
--------- Tangradi. It's becoming a joke, he's horrible. I'd put him on waivers and HOPE someone picks him up. I've seen Malkin get in his face at least 3 times this season about his horrid play.
- Neal on the point on the PP. If you're on the point you HAVE to be able to control the puck coming around the boards, he can't. Just end the experiment now (it WILL end eventually, but Bylsma will drag it on).
- Malkin playing in the KHL. Not a big deal, but he hasn't adjusted to NHL skill yet. He will soon.
- Bylsma's 3,343,135 line combinations. Just pick some *** lines and play hockey
I actually haven't noticed that. I believe you. I just haven't noticed.

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01-23-2013, 09:36 PM
  #135
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Thank God for you Rip. I can't take how bulletproof Fleury is, even though I actually don't put that much blame on him for tonight.

As I mentioned when the Leafs scored their 4th goal: 4 goals on 6 scoring opportunities.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say about our best forward prospect in Tangradi.

Well, we've always agreed on the Fleury part .

We do not agree on Tangradi though, I think. At least not what to do about him. I don't see much in what he does giving me hope that he will be a solution for us, granted, but at the same time I think there has been far too much stick and far too little carrot for him throughout his time on the Pens. And a complete lack of Bylsma searching for options where he can adequately compliment other players styles and be effective even when not scoring (obviously he would have helped his case tremendously if he had potted a few).

When he was playing well and having a positive impact in previous seasons in the playoffs and at the end of the regular season last year, he would still get scratched and be benched for a tiny mistake.
As soon as his line as two poor shifts in a row, he gets benched and all the lines get mangled by Bylsma in the search for a quick fix.

This - to me - is terrible prospect development. More so when we are in the early stages of the season where we can play .500 hockey and be cool with it. It is much more important to test out what we have and build up these complimentary assets.

Anyway, if there is no change to how Bylsma uses him... and if a change in usage does not cause positive change in contributions, by all means trade him and give Bylsma someone he can use.

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01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
  #136
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Crosby's production was obviously good, though I almost want to give him a minus because of errant passes.

- Malkin despite the goal. Gotta do it. Same as Crosby except he handed the Leafs a golden opportunity they cashed in on.

- This ridiculous line shuffling. I don't have a problem mixing it up, but some of the combinations made absolutely no sense.

I'm not gonna give him a minus or anything, but Sutter needs to look a little, not a lot but a little, more dangerous. I realize he's Staal lite but that line looks stagnant to me offensively.

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01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
  #137
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Man, and I just saw a replay of the Leafs first goal (was on my way back from my own game)

How in Christ's name is that not goalie interference? Did the Pens at least try to make a stink of this?
looked like Engelland ran into Fleury

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01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
  #138
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Malkin-Crosby-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Kunitz-Kennedy-Tangradi
Glass-Vitale-Adams

THERE YA GO BOYS! SHAKE IT UP A BIT!

Oh, and our first line plays a minimum of 25min.
If we were to make a major shakedown in the lines I would hope that is would look like:

Malkin-Crosby-Neal
Kunitz-Sutter-Cooke
Kennedy-Vitale-Dupuis
Glass-Adams-Tangradi

That 3rd line would be crazy hustle.


This game was disappointing, but there is always one "off" game once in a while. Would be interesting to see where Tangradi lines up next game, I think he knows that it's a make it or break it game for him.

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01-23-2013, 09:38 PM
  #139
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His defenders have been quiet tonight.

You know, I think some are citing that failed dump as when Bylsma pulled the plug.

IMO, the experiment 'ended' when Geno was busting free and Tangradi, if he'd looked, would've seen Geno streaking into the offensive zone with two steps on his defender. Instead, Tangradi put his head down and skated to the side to 'create space and let the other forwards catch up'. By the time he looked up, Geno was already out of real estate.

I don't know if Tangradi has a future in the league. He might. He actually might be a lot better with Crosby. But, on a team where it's Geno or bust, I think it needs to be bust.

Still, I'd be willing to give him another chance. I just think it's 50/50 that Bylsma is.
Please, he'll go the way of Luca Caputi.

It's okay to love the uniform and hope all our picks and all our prospects will be homeruns, but I'll repeat it again: if anyone sees anything in Tangradi that says he'll be anything more than a fringe NHL'er, they have no idea what they're watching.

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01-23-2013, 09:39 PM
  #140
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Nailed it, especially the bolded. People have to be careful not to want as many new toys as possible over Stanley Cups. Not saying anyone thinks that consciously, but your points say it better than I could.

The good thing is they may not have to necessarily give much up, because any top 6-capable forward is an improvement over the options they have now. We may just be talking a couple of picks given up to get a capable body on Malkin's right and not have to move a bunch of guys around the depth chart. Vinny Prospal immediately comes to mind.
I think Ray Shero just falls so in love with all the toys-- because that's the way of his mentor, David Poile.

You know, now that I think about it, outside of Staal, who he was forced to trade, has there ever been an asset Shero moved (outside of maybe the 1st in the Hossa deal) where you thought 'Shero really meant it when he said he hated to lose that'.

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01-23-2013, 09:39 PM
  #141
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Pretty sure that was Englland who ran Fleury over no? Or was he pushed in?

EDIT: Yeah a cheeky play by Kulemin there.


I mean yeah, Engelland runs into Fleury after a blatant shove.

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01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #142
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Some things I noticed:

- Malkin needs to have better vision on some of these passes he makes, dead giveaways that come back to bite the Pens in the ass all way too often.

- Vitale needs to shoot the puck. This team makes a point to be "team players" when they really need to be puck hogs and shoot the damn disc to the back of the net.

But, overall as many have pointed out, just a bad, flat game from the Pens. Don't dwell on it, take a few things away from it and adjust. I'm done, let's win Friday.

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01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #143
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looked like Engelland ran into Fleury
He was pushed into, Fleury.

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01-23-2013, 09:41 PM
  #144
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I mean yeah, Engelland runs into Fleury after a blatant shove.
Yeah I see that... still.

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #145
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looked like Engelland ran into Fleury
See above quote from Leaf fan.

If that were Kunitz, not only would have not counted, but the Leafs would have been awarded with goal.

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #146
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Well, we've always agreed on the Fleury part .

We do not agree on Tangradi though, I think. At least not what to do about him. I don't see much in what he does giving me hope that he will be a solution for us, granted, but at the same time I think there has been far too much stick and far too little carrot for him throughout his time on the Pens. And a complete lack of Bylsma searching for options where he can adequately compliment other players styles and be effective even when not scoring (obviously he would have helped his case tremendously if he had potted a few).

When he was playing well and having a positive impact in previous seasons in the playoffs and at the end of the regular season last year, he would still get scratched and be benched for a tiny mistake.
As soon as his line as two poor shifts in a row, he gets benched and all the lines get mangled by Bylsma in the search for a quick fix.

This - to me - is terrible prospect development. More so when we are in the early stages of the season where we can play .500 hockey and be cool with it. It is much more important to test out what we have and build up these complimentary assets.

Anyway, if there is no change to how Bylsma uses him... and if a change in usage does not cause positive change in contributions, by all means trade him and give Bylsma someone he can use.
I don't disagree with that. I just think the damage has been done, and the last available option (swap him and Dupuis or Kunitz) is something Bylsma won't try.

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #147
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I think Ray Shero just falls so in love with all the toys-- because that's the way of his mentor, David Poile.

You know, now that I think about it, outside of Staal, who he was forced to trade, has there ever been an asset Shero moved (outside of maybe the 1st in the Hossa deal) where you thought 'Shero really meant it when he said he hated to lose that'.
Haha of course not. I mean maybe Esposito, which I know sounds funny but the jury was still out on him at least.

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #148
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Guys like Tangradi had decent trade value three years ago. The five blue chip defensive prospects all have varying degrees of high trade value. You've got a first and a second coming up in arguably the deepest draft in years.

I know, you want them because some of them COULD make a significant impact in a few years.

By the same token, when the reluctance starts to look like a miser hording money, you wonder if sight has been lost of the fact that what you wonder about any of these prospects if whether any of them that COULD make a significant impact also COULD make that impact before Geno turns 30.

I'm not saying it's easy. But, for me, you've spent three years hording. IMO, in the big 5, Bennett, and the 1st this year, you've got 7 major trade chips (all worth more than ANY piece paid for Hossa). In Dumoulin, the 2nd in this draft, and maybe 2-3 more pieces, you've got 5 trade chips that have more value than anything moved for Hossa or Gill outside the 1st and Esposito paid for Hossa.

How many of those chips are going to pan out in the end? How many are going to make a significant impact at all? How many before Sid or Geno turn 30?

For me, this team is Sid and Geno. You don't trade them all. You don't trade them for more immediately impactful pieces that don't make sense. But, at some point, you've got to give to get, where getting means putting Sid and Geno in a more immediately better position to win another cup.
Preaching to the choir, my friend, sorry if it didn't sound that way in my response.

You're right, it does seem to be a hording situation. We barely play them, if at all. I would rather seem them traded than lose them to waivers.

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01-23-2013, 09:43 PM
  #149
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Please, he'll go the way of Luca Caputi.

It's okay to love the uniform and hope all our picks and all our prospects will be homeruns, but I'll repeat it again: if anyone sees anything in Tangradi that says he'll be anything more than a fringe NHL'er, they have no idea what they're watching.
Exactly. I said it before: What would you say about him if he was on another team and you saw a couple of their games? Would you even remember him? Guys can absolutely develop later. Malone is a good example here I think, however Malone showed more......so much more.

If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it. People see Caputi, Pesonen, et. al. get some playing time, show nothing, then get the axe. When they're finally done complaining they see later on there was a reason for that. Then it starts again with the next marginal prospect/acquisition. It's amazing.

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01-23-2013, 09:44 PM
  #150
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Well, we've always agreed on the Fleury part .

We do not agree on Tangradi though, I think. At least not what to do about him. I don't see much in what he does giving me hope that he will be a solution for us, granted, but at the same time I think there has been far too much stick and far too little carrot for him throughout his time on the Pens. And a complete lack of Bylsma searching for options where he can adequately compliment other players styles and be effective even when not scoring (obviously he would have helped his case tremendously if he had potted a few).

When he was playing well and having a positive impact in previous seasons in the playoffs and at the end of the regular season last year, he would still get scratched and be benched for a tiny mistake.
As soon as his line as two poor shifts in a row, he gets benched and all the lines get mangled by Bylsma in the search for a quick fix.

This - to me - is terrible prospect development. More so when we are in the early stages of the season where we can play .500 hockey and be cool with it. It is much more important to test out what we have and build up these complimentary assets.

Anyway, if there is no change to how Bylsma uses him... and if a change in usage does not cause positive change in contributions, by all means trade him and give Bylsma someone he can use.
I'm sorry man, but I have no idea what anyone sees.

Average skater with average hands, and the biggest sin of all, a big body who he's a little too polite along the boards.

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