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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:58 PM
  #176
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
This will turn into a thing.

"Penguins players appalled by Malkin speaking to Leafs player after blowout loss! Malkin's intensity and dedication questionable?" Your next Dejan Kovacevic article.
Malkin is a Ryan Clark wanna be.

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01-23-2013, 10:00 PM
  #177
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Who is Potato?
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Well let's replace Kulemin with "Potato", then, just for a bit? Because hearing about Malkin and Potato's great chemistry over and over seems a bit like beating your head against the wall to alleviate a headache. Potato isn't coming here.

Wait, this got all screwy. And now I'm hungry.
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Kulemin.
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Kulemin
good times. but we're going to have bad times if we don't get Geno and Sid the support they deserve.

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:00 PM
  #178
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Harrington's going to be a nice shutdown guy. World Juniors aren't the be all end all, but he's been Canada's best overall D for two years now.

All I remember from Tangradi in the World Juniors is him taking a shot at Tavares from the bench after JT scored a goal...
I actually think Harrington is going to be good. In two years, he's a 5/6. Maybe in three or four years, he's a 3/4. Of course, that's right around the time Geno turns 30, but I digress . . .

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01-23-2013, 10:02 PM
  #179
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+ game is over

- for Dan Bylsma and his changing team lines, how the hell you want to create chemistry when they play every 2nd shift with someone else? And not only forwards, but defense too. I got it, when Engelland was gone, it's okay, but it was not needed after he was back on the ice
- for Dan Bylsma for handling rookies in game situations and destroying their confidence, I mean Despres played 10, 10 and 8 min, Tangradi 11, 9 and not even 5 min
- for people who should more worry about DB instead of qualities of Tangradi, he can play hockey, but he wasn't used properly. I mean in those three games he made some good plays, tried to battle in boards, screening the goalie, it's not like he was lost on the ice, try him in Holmstrom position in PP, give him a real shot

btw. I really don't think Bortuzzo is going to replace Engelland, it would be very risky to have two "youngsters" together for DB, I believe it's gonna be The Reverend who gets a call

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:03 PM
  #180
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Whatever you think of fellow Pens' fans reluctance to give up prospects, I think Shero's made it abundantly clear that he wants good wingers for Sid and Geno.

He signed Sykora. He traded for and tried to sign Hossa. He traded for Kunitz. He traded for Ponikarovsky (who failed, obviously, but Shero tried). He traded for Neal. He went balls-out for Parise over the summer.

That's all despite being in a very tight spot cap-wise and having few young assets to work with over the past few years. I can't imagine he'll go into the playoffs with the wingers we have, all the newfound capspace he has to play with, and all the quality prospects we have in the pool.
He's got the assets and the cap space now.

What's done is done. We can debate whether he did enough. But, there should be NO debate this time. A second wheel winger for Sid is an absolute must, even though it will cost a ton. A third wheel for Geno would be nice. He's got the assets for both. Of course, it means a fit between a team dangling a guy who he thinks fits one of those two descriptions and valuing the type of prime chips he has to dangle.

I'll put it this way: If he comes up empty handed again AND the Pens are a quick out in the playoffs, then I don't think Bylsma will be the only one on thin ice.

EDIT: To clarify, I think it's more likely than not that Bylsma would be gone. Shero would not be. But, by the same token, his situation no longer would be absolutely secure.

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
He's got the assets and the cap space now.

What's done is done. We can debate whether he did enough. But, there should be NO debate this time. A second wheel winger for Sid is an absolute must, even though it will cost a ton. A third wheel for Geno would be nice. He's got the assets for both. Of course, it means a fit between a team dangling a guy who he thinks fits one of those two descriptions and valuing the type of prime chips he has to dangle.

I'll put it this way: If he comes up empty handed again AND the Pens are a quick out in the playoffs, then I don't think Bylsma will be the only one on thin ice.
Shero's shown he's not afraid to part with good assets to land wingers. He should pick up at least one more legitimate scoring winger before the playoffs, and I have faith he will.

It it takes 'til the deadline to find the right fit, that's fine. We've already got the horses to take care of business in the regular season.

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01-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #182
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Makes no sense to me that you'd mixed up your lines that much when the lines previously got the job done in solid performances and wins.

So while the line shuffling didn't make much sense, it seems that it's not a surprising thing to see Bylsma do. He just wants to keep it interesting and fresh for everyone

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
ROFL on the food groups. Two quick things:

1. I do think Shero is trying to do something. What, I don't know. But, he sure has the assets to do something.

2. Don't confuse me with some people here. I was saying last year 'Sid and Geno, two good wingers each, and anything is possible'. I said it before the season started. I said it after the weekend wins. And, I'm saying it now. It's not about one game. It's about an organization built on the advantage of having the two best centers in hockey not exploiting that advantage. I'll put it another way: IF Sid and Geno both had two good wingers each, then what team shuts that down in a playoff series? Maybe someone could, but you'd think anything is possible, no?
He may be trying but not that much then, why not try to lure Whitney or even Semin last Offseason, when the latter was willing to sign a 1 year deal. I dare someone to convince me that Semin wouldn't have worked with one of our superstar. the missing 2nd wheel would have been instantly solved.
Bottom line, it was yet another terrible offseason from Shero as far as giving to this team one of the thing it needs the most : support for both Sid and Zhenya.
Allen on defense would have been nice too.
Oh, and no assets to give up for any of these players.

edit : common point between Semin and Whitney : right shots

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #184
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I remember thinking earlier today that they seemed to keep the lines together for the most part the first two games. Other than throwing Crosby/Malkin together and adjusting for a few shifts I think they were almost always kept as is. Tonight was just wacked out, and by the way: Make sure we get that fourth line out there!
Keep in mind how many penalties they had to kill, thus throwing the lines out of whack, and then trying to get back into the game after they were trailing. Much easier to roll your lines when you're leading and not having to kill 5 on 3's when the term "boarding" has clearly been redefined.

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01-23-2013, 10:08 PM
  #185
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Oh, I'd like to give a 'plus' to Deryk Engelland for going toe-to-toe with Colton Orr.

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01-23-2013, 10:10 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I remember thinking earlier today that they seemed to keep the lines together for the most part the first two games. Other than throwing Crosby/Malkin together and adjusting for a few shifts I think they were almost always kept as is. Tonight was just wacked out, and by the way: Make sure we get that fourth line out there!
This is what really pisses me off. You're down by two, you're not coming off a game, you don't have a back-to-back, and your core is far from old. Roll 3 lines and force the action.

As far as mixing up the lines goes, I don't know why it had to be done to this degree. If you decide you're done with Tangradi, just move Cooke up to the 2nd line (Kennedy better offensively, but you don't need another shoot-first guy on that line) and move one of the 4th liners up to the 3rd line, and allow Sid, Geno, and Neal to rotate extra shifts on the 4th. No need to keep juggling, imo.

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:14 PM
  #187
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Well, we've always agreed on the Fleury part .

We do not agree on Tangradi though, I think. At least not what to do about him. I don't see much in what he does giving me hope that he will be a solution for us, granted, but at the same time I think there has been far too much stick and far too little carrot for him throughout his time on the Pens. And a complete lack of Bylsma searching for options where he can adequately compliment other players styles and be effective even when not scoring (obviously he would have helped his case tremendously if he had potted a few).

When he was playing well and having a positive impact in previous seasons in the playoffs and at the end of the regular season last year, he would still get scratched and be benched for a tiny mistake.
As soon as his line as two poor shifts in a row, he gets benched and all the lines get mangled by Bylsma in the search for a quick fix.

This - to me - is terrible prospect development. More so when we are in the early stages of the season where we can play .500 hockey and be cool with it. It is much more important to test out what we have and build up these complimentary assets.

Anyway, if there is no change to how Bylsma uses him... and if a change in usage does not cause positive change in contributions, by all means trade him and give Bylsma someone he can use.
In terms of prospect development, you could also attribute Flower's inconsistency to that as well. This organization doesn't really have the best track record in that department.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the too much stick and not enough carrot observation, though. I don't think that Tangradi lacks talent, or potential, or work ethic. But I just don't see him fitting into Bylsma's system.

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #188
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just wanted to add as a positive, Despres best game so far this season, no flashy pass this time but some pretty good work in his own zone.

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01-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #189
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I hate it when DB rolls the Sid-Geno-Neal line like he did in the 3rd. The team is down multiple goals, if that line doesn't score, it's pretty damn likely the other lines aren't going to even create scoring chances. It's just putting all the eggs in one basket and then have nothing going offensively for the next few shifts. Just better off running the normal lines.

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01-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #190
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I hope Tangradi is traded for some crappy pick. He can't hit, fight, score, or pass.

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01-23-2013, 10:17 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
He may be trying but not that much then, why not try to lure Whitney or even Semin last Offseason, when the latter was willing to sign a 1 year deal. I dare someone to convince me that Semin wouldn't have worked with one of our superstar. the missing 2nd wheel would have been instantly solved.
Bottom line, it was yet another terrible offseason from Shero as far as giving to this team one of the thing it needs the most : support for both Sid and Zhenya.
Allen on defense would have been nice too.
Oh, and no assets to give up for any of these players.

edit : common point between Semin and Whitney : right shots
I don't remember when Semin and Whitney signed... wait, I know that Semin was late into the process, but maybe Shero missed out on Whitney because he was all in on Parise, and perhaps he just didn't want Semin?

And maybe he's looking for something more long-term than a 1-year deal for Sid.

I don't think I can blame him for this past off-season, he swung for the fences, and his team is still in great position to improve even in the face of a significant drop in the cap.

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01-23-2013, 10:18 PM
  #192
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loss is entirely my fault. First game this season I didn't check out the GDT thread pre-game... It won't happen again in the future and Penguins will go 47-1 this season!

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01-23-2013, 10:18 PM
  #193
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Keep in mind how many penalties they had to kill, thus throwing the lines out of whack, and then trying to get back into the game after they were trailing. Much easier to roll your lines when you're leading and not having to kill 5 on 3's when the term "boarding" has clearly been redefined.
Completely agree but I thought it was nonsensical at times. I confess I can't remember the exact situations, who came off and who jumped on exactly.

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01-23-2013, 10:18 PM
  #194
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Oh, I'd like to give a 'plus' to Deryk Engelland for going toe-to-toe with Colton Orr.
That would be the only reason to give him a plus, because otherwise he was absolute **** tonight, which is a just a tiny notch below how he's looked this season.

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01-23-2013, 10:19 PM
  #195
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Simply saying "5 goals on 24 shots must means MAF was bad" is such an ignorant comment.
I specifically said that tonight none of the goals were mistakes on his part, so I did not 'simply' comment in that vein.
Using straw man arguments to counter tempered criticism isn't ignorant, but it would qualify as daft or at least disingenuous. Then again you suggesting that Fleury was one of two pluses on the Pens in this one is one of the reasons I commented, and of course I know that there are few if any here who would go as far to talk up Fleury as you.

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He was literally bowled over by his Eng on one goal and two others were off of Pens turnovers to wide open guys in the slot.
Sure thing on the first, but if you tell me that those shots from JVR and Grabovski were shots were MAF would have to go twilight zone to make the save, you are off your meds.

Anyway, I wasn't even saying Fleury should be a minus in this game, nor was I blaming him. I am just saying that considering him a plus is ridiculous when he made very few difficult stops and the Leafs scored on almost all the chances they had. If that was a great game from him in your book, I imagine that you are feeling like having seen the oceans part when it comes to Reimer's performance.
My gripe today is not with Fleury, only with his most rabid fans.

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01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
  #196
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That would be the only reason to give him a plus, because otherwise he was absolute **** tonight, which is a just a tiny notch below how he's looked this season.
What did he do wrong? Everyone looked like crap tonight.

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01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
  #197
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Geez. Glad I missed this one.

Didn't see a minute of the game live but seeing a ton of vitriol toward Tangradi (on Twitter and such -- haven't caught up here yet). Warranted or just knee-jerk reactions?

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01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
  #198
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I couldn't see any good reason not be all in on Semin on a 1-yr deal. There was truly zero downside to it. It's one year, you give up no assets to acquire him, only thing it does is "block" Tangradi and make acquiring a very expensive winger a bit tougher.

Oh but the character concerns, et al, that were posted over and over again. You'd would of thought that Semin poisoned the drinking water in Washington. Shero should've been all over a one-year deal with Semin, now he's going to have to part with significant assets to fix the same problem that could of been potentially filled with just salary considerations.

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01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Shero's shown he's not afraid to part with good assets to land wingers. He should pick up at least one more legitimate scoring winger before the playoffs, and I have faith he will.

It it takes 'til the deadline to find the right fit, that's fine. We've already got the horses to take care of business in the regular season.
We'll see. But I do hope you're right about his intentions this year. Strike that. I hope you're faith in his ability to execute at the deadline is well placed, because I'd really enjoy you telling me 'I told you so' (because that means he'll have gotten Sid a second wheel and maybe Geno a third wheel).

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01-23-2013, 10:22 PM
  #200
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In terms of prospect development, you could also attribute Flower's inconsistency to that as well. This organization doesn't really have the best track record in that department.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the too much stick and not enough carrot observation, though. I don't think that Tangradi lacks talent, or potential, or work ethic. But I just don't see him fitting into Bylsma's system.
I like Fleury and could be classified as a "defender", but as far as problems he himself can control the only one last few years has been between his own ears.

Tangradi's problems aren't about the system. If he didn't play with an amazing center, how many points do you think he'd be able to muster? Hell at this rate I don't know if he'll hit 10 this year, and all he has to do is be actively involved in the game.

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