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*ALL* PK Subban talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals) II
]I'm a huge MTL fan[/B] and Subban is my favourite player. Difference is, I'm also a hockey fan and there is talent outside MTL (stop being a homer). I never said I'd take anybody over Subban. If you read correctly, I state 'their current talent, not taking potential into consideration'...Is my list perfect, absolutely not, but it's close
IMO their are only 5 defensemen in the NHL I would take to build my team arounf before Subban (all elements being considered)
Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson and Letang.
Fooled me with a list like that. Yikes, pay a bit more attention to just how good Subban is RIGHT now.
Believe me, I realize that Benn is worth more than Subban, however the difference in value is relatively marginal. I'm not too concerned about Montreal having the money/cap space to resign Subban, which is why I ignored the contract situation. I understand that the deal may not make sense for you, but what you've suggested does not even remotely help Montreal. I know Montreal's system pretty well and those players simply do not equal what Subban brings to our team.
No deal to be made?
See that's totally fair man. I'm just coming in here to se if this could even be remotely possible. I'm not here to step on toes, or offend.
See that's totally fair. What on our team would you guys like that doesn't include the name Jamie Benn?
Oleksiak, Ritchie, Kiviaho, and a 1st. If you're going on prospects/picks. Would like to get a D who could step in sooner, but I don't see a fit. At least Oleksiak is closer than some prospects/picks would be, might be able to play next year.
The only issue I have with this, is we've seen great players get traded for pieces many times throughout the history of the NHL. Why wouldn't this situation be any different if the pieces coming back are of value to Montreal?
Then again this is HFboards, so rationale is usually thrown out the window, and I get that.
If Benn is the only thing that makes it happen, then clearly we're horrible trade partners. Thanks for entertaining the thought though.
Oleksiak, Ritchie, Kiviaho, and a 1st. If you're going on prospects/picks. Would like to get a D who could step in sooner, but I don't see a fit. At least Oleksiak is closer than some prospects/picks would be, might be able to play next year.
Okay I see where you're coming from then. Doesn't seem like a workable deal then, thanks for at least going back and forth with me. No disrespect meant.
1. Couturier is AMERICAN, not French born. He's got a French last name, so what?
2. Couturier is NOT worth Subban.
3. We've got a backlog of centres.
4. Opens a HUGE hole in our defence.
I think you may have missed the part where i said one of the centerman will be shipped out ( Plekanac, Eller, or Desharnais in a package ) for a defenceman. Eventually when galy is ready a second of these three centerman will be going. For me Desharnais would go first and maybe next year or the year after Plekanac. Couturier would be a great return and if you need any kind of assurances you should watch tapes of last years playoffs.
The only issue I have with this, is we've seen great players get traded for pieces many times throughout the history of the NHL. Why wouldn't this situation be any different if the pieces coming back are of value to Montreal?
Then again this is HFboards, so rationale is usually thrown out the window, and I get that.
If Benn is the only thing that makes it happen, then clearly we're horrible trade partners. Thanks for entertaining the thought though.
The three dimes for a quarter trade.
Montreal needs high-end talent and Subban will fetch that if he's traded. He's not on a bad contract, he hasn't done things that will force a trade and he's a player a bunch of teams will covet.
Try adding, OEL, Karlsson, Seabrook, Yandle AT LEAST to that list. They're all a step above Subban.
Then you've got Myers, McDonagh, E Johnson, Burns, Markov, Phaneuf, Edler, Hamhuis, and a few more that are all debatable.
Subban is a 20-30 Dman in the NHL right now.
I'm starting to think Habs fans show more homer-ism than Van fans. Subban is allegedly a physical Gretzky on D, but they'd rather trade him than pay him half of what Seabrook makes.
Montreal needs high-end talent and Subban will fetch that if he's traded. He's not on a bad contract, he hasn't done things that will force a trade and he's a player a bunch of teams will covet.
Now that's Montreal's problem isn't it.... He isn't on a contract at all!
Haha, yeah let's trade our new, freshly signed (at an amazing contract) Jamie Benn for your unsigned defenseman.
It's about knowing what those prospects bring to the table. I've been watching two of them for a couple of seasons, and I know what they bring to the table. You don't, so of course you think it's ridiculous.
It was a jumping off point to see what you guys value you him at. If you think Benn is coming back for him, then you're mistaken, and by quite a bit.
High end first pairing, soon to be superstar defenseman aren't cheap. I know this. Instead of just saying "wow that's horrible, no" you throw back what you would fix in the proposal. Then we go back and forth again until we come to agreement. That's how it works
The problem is this: you want our top defender with youth who is already proving to be one of the best in the world. You offered up a bunch of marginal prospects that wouldn't be better than many we already have. Who else, other than Benn, do you have that comes close to Subban's value? Goligoski is not something we need, so that eliminates him. So, what do you have left? Look at it as if you were trying to use the players on your team to try and acquire Benn. What do you think is a fair offer for Benn using your current players and prospects. If you can not come up with an offer, now you know why you can not get Subban. The only player currently on your roster that would be worth trading Subban for is Benn. Other than that, there is nothing you have that we either need, or don't already have. Not in a deal for Subban.
So, if negotiation is about offers and counter offers, here is mine:
The problem is this: you want our top defender with youth who is already proving to be one of the best in the world. You offered up a bunch of marginal prospects that wouldn't be better than many we already have. Who else, other than Benn, do you have that comes close to Subban's value? Goligoski is not something we need, so that eliminates him. So, what do you have left? Look at it as if you were trying to use the players on your team to try and acquire Benn. What do you think is a fair offer for Benn using your current players and prospects. If you can not come up with an offer, now you know why you can not get Subban. The only player currently on your roster that would be worth trading Subban for is Benn. Other than that, there is nothing you have that we either need, or don't already have. Not in a deal for Subban.
So, if negotiation is about offers and counter offers, here is mine:
Subban, Eller, 2013 2nd for Benn and a 2013 1st.
Please view my latest posts in the thread. Your value on that trade is ridiculous.
1. Couturier is AMERICAN, not French born. He's got a French last name, so what?
2. Couturier is NOT worth Subban.
3. We've got a backlog of centres.
4. Opens a HUGE hole in our defence.
1. From Wikipedia: "Sean Couturier (born December 7, 1992) is an American-born Canadian ice hockey player...Couturier was born in Phoenix, Arizona, while his father Sylvain Couturier (born April 23, 1968 in Greenfield Park, Quebec [Montreal suburb]) played for the International Hockey League (IHL)'s Phoenix Roadrunners. Following his father's retirement, the family moved to Bathurst, New Brunswick, where his father became General Manager of The Acadie Bathurst Titan of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. Couturier played his minor hockey in Bathurst and calls the city home."
Bathurst Linguistics
Language (%) French only 50.58%
English only 46.31%
English & French 1.94%
Other 1.17%
2. Debatable.
3. Not a bad thing.
4. Can trade a top six center for top four d-man later.
1. From Wikipedia: "Sean Couturier (born December 7, 1992) is an American-born Canadian ice hockey player...Couturier was born in Phoenix, Arizona, while his father Sylvain Couturier (born April 23, 1968 in Greenfield Park, Quebec [Montreal suburb]) played for the International Hockey League (IHL)'s Phoenix Roadrunners. Following his father's retirement, the family moved to Bathurst, New Brunswick, where his father became General Manager of The Acadie Bathurst Titan of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. Couturier played his minor hockey in Bathurst and calls the city home."
Bathurst Linguistics
Language (%) French only 50.58%
English only 46.31%
English & French 1.94%
Other 1.17%
2. Debatable.
3. Not a bad thing.
4. Can trade a top six center for top four d-man later.
Point. Set. And Match.
Agreed. Someone cares to give me that Couturier scouting report?
I like Benn a lot, but I don't see how it's such a travesty to compare him to Subban. Benn has 22 and 26 goal seasons? 56 and 63 points? Solid. He was like 43rd amongst forward scorers in the NHL last year. Subban was 28th and 30th the last couple years amongst D-men scorers. And 18th in TOI/G, with great advanced stats defensively (he was better defensively than offensively). Both just finished their ELCs, both are projected/expected to step up from their current roles as team-stars into league-stars.
I'd say they are on the same level and same trajectory, relative to their respective positions. Should get paid about the same. And if all goes according to plan, both will be significant NHL stars for a lot of years to come.
Neither team should want to trade them. Not for eachother either, you want to *build* and find those players at each position, not just swap them and still be left looking to replace the void you just created.
Benn is the only *single entity* on the Stars who has comparable trade value to Subban. But of course, it would make no sense for either side to swap them for eachother. Well, if they were both signed, anyway. Given Subban isn't signed, that would tip the scales. But aside from that, they should be thought of as players with similar overall value.
I'm not sure why some believe that the Habs would take a load of marginal players and a pick or two in any deal for Subban. Assuming he becomes available, you can bet 29 teams will line up to get him, so Bergevin is no hurry to trade him. This is not the year the Habs will win the Cup and Markov is playing great, so the team can afford to sit and wait for the right offer to come along. Since the Habs would be attempting to replace a two-way defenseman who plays No. 1 minutes, you would realistically expect equal value or what is perceived as such i.e. Huberdeau, Bogosian, Pietrangelo etc... in return. There is simply no reason for Bergevin to settle for anything less.
Try adding, OEL, Karlsson, Seabrook, Yandle AT LEAST to that list. They're all a step above Subban.
Then you've got Myers, McDonagh, E Johnson, Burns, Markov, Phaneuf, Edler, Hamhuis, and a few more that are all debatable.
Subban is a 20-30 Dman in the NHL right now.
OEL? He's not better than Subban offensively and defensively. Subban is a better hitter shot blocker plus OEL 32 points does not make him better offensively too. Maybe in the long stretch he will be better but right now Subban is better.
Karlsson Yandle i agree but they are pretty unidimensional compared to Subban.
Other i said was debatable but he's in the top 20 easy. Mcdonagh, Johnson, Burns are a step above. Hamhuis wtf he's a not better than Gorges for christ sake. Myers yeah right 26 points 5.5 mil nough said.
If Subban wasn't playing for the habs or the leafs because we all know we are huge homers that overrate our players all the time, he would be talked about in the same sentence as Pietrangelo, Doughty and karlsson in reality he is not far from this pack but he is under them for now that don't mean it won't change someday.
I doubt strongly Subban gonna be traded but if it' S the case, these are some of the young hockey players I would like to see in return. One of them + pick for some would make my day.
