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*ALL* PK Subban talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals) II

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01-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #101
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If I'm Montreal, I'm not looking for quantity for quality trades (like what some fans are proposing). Subban is a 23 year old, top pairing defenceman (arguably a #1). You don't trade talent like that for an average NHLer, a good prospect, and a couple of picks. You do trades like Subban + for Benn, or Subban for Yakupov, or Subban for a high end prospect +. Trades that get high end talent back in exchange for high end talent.
Unless you can't sign him and nobody is willing to pay those prices. Look at most other RFA dump trades, its almost always a package going for the better player, not the rfa packaged up to get a better player.

If I`m Edmonton, I`d offer a top prospect (Pajaarvi or Klefbom), a second tier prospect (Marincin or Hamilton) a couple of 2nd round picks, and Ryan Whitney. With Subban's current contract, its unlikely that Montreal will have the bargaining power to get close to what they feel he should be worth.

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01-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #102
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Do not want Voracek.
What does you GM want though. Voracek is a good young top 6 player. Very good one actually. Let's not act like he is come scrub.

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01-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #103
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Send P.K to Clumbus for Ryan Johansen, Ryan Murray, 25 first round picks and Tim Erixon. That'll do it.
Ryan Murray and every pick they have in this up coming draft would do it for me!

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01-24-2013, 10:08 AM
  #104
Johnny Bravo
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What does you GM want though. Voracek is a good young top 6 player. Very good one actually. Let's not act like he is come scrub.
They want couturier, and every other lopsided offer benefiting the habs.

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01-24-2013, 10:09 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Unless you can't sign him and nobody is willing to pay those prices. Look at most other RFA dump trades, its almost always a package going for the better player, not the rfa packaged up to get a better player.

If I`m Edmonton, I`d offer a top prospect (Pajaarvi or Klefbom), a second tier prospect (Marincin or Hamilton) a couple of 2nd round picks, and Ryan Whitney. With Subban's current contract, its unlikely that Montreal will have the bargaining power to get close to what they feel he should be worth.


How do you know? Who knows what other teams are offering... Montreal's not in a rush to trade him...Wait for the best deal. Bergevin is going to take his time if he's shopping him. A deal like that would def not entice, but then again, I also don't know what kind of packages teams are offering.

I want to avoid a Patrick Roy type deal where we offer a good player (I'm not comparing Subban's value to Patrick Roy in the slightest, its just an example) and we get pieces that are all "ok" but don't end up doing much for us.

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01-24-2013, 10:09 AM
  #106
Pierre Dagenais
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Originally Posted by Rangerboy030 View Post
Sauer played 19 games, so out of our big 4 D's, the 1 of them who is worst at D played against the weakest competition.

Who would'a thunk it?
Compare that to Subban who plays against #1 lines.

Del Zotto is not worth anything close to Subban

Who would'a thunk it?

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01-24-2013, 10:09 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
Top 4 doesn't mean top minutes. Take a look at the website I linked.

Del Zotto is 5th amongst defensemen in Quality of Competition, behind Girardi, Mcdonagh, Staal and even Sauer.

You admitted it yourself, he plays the 3rd pairing. Does he not get sheltered minutes?
Subban wouldn't be getting top 4 minutes either if he was a leftie. Staal and McDonagh are too good. In the future? Sure. You can't grasp the fact that our LD is ridiculously stacked, can you?

It's like saying ''Jordan Staal is a bad player, he used to play behind Crosby and Malkin. He's nothing but a 3C''...


Last edited by CaptainCally: 01-24-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
  #108
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Honestly, Habs would take the pics IMO. Would be hard to swallow, but he isn't worth that much money.

In all honesty, for all the flash Subban brings, he has negative features too:

- He's not a big body and can't match up againts all forwards in the league.
- He's not a PP QB, Habs PP was one of the worst in the league with him as the anchor.
- Is not unanimous in the locker room. Got into numerous fights with teammates and appears to rub a lot of teammates the wrong way.

IMO, he dosen't have the measurables to be a number 1 D-man, even in his prime, and he's a little bit of a me myself and I type.
1: if subban's not a big body at 6'0 and what is he at now? 220? then i'd love know what your definition of 'big body' is...

2: nobody ever claimed he ever was a QB, he is and always has been, the shooter on the pp.

3: over-dramatized ********. 'fights with teammates'? i'd advise you to look at the video of those 'fights' if you can find it. again, i'll question your definition of the word 'fight'...

'appears to rub his teammates the wrong way'... give me quotes, not hearsay. im a nice guy, i'll save you the time: don't bother, you won't find them...

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01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
  #109
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I think there will be a high end defense prospect going back, assuming other teams aren't willing to give up their good young defensemen (which I don't think they will if it becomes clear to everyone that Subban is on the market). Someone like Klefbom, Brodin, etc. will be included, and then probably a first round pick and a roster forward.

Montreal fans hate the Paajarvi+Klefbom+1st type offer but I can see that being the kind of return they get. We've seen these kinds of trades before and the team selling the good player almost never gets back another player that is as good. They get a good roster player, a high pick and a high potential prospect. There is a chance Philly might offer Couturier, but other than that I don't really see teams that will give up their own young stars. Certainly don't expect a Yakupov+Petry type deal, that's ridiculous and would never happen.

Teams aren't going to give up players like Gardiner, Petry, etc. if it is clear that Subban is on the market. Montreal lacks leverage in this scenario, so why would teams trade their low cap hit good young D for an upgrade with a much higher cap hit and historical attitude issues?
Phoenix got runblad for turris, the flyers got shenn and simmonds for richards and voracek and couturier for carter

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01-24-2013, 10:11 AM
  #110
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Meehan and Subban can ask for more because of his ability to draw fans and goodwill. He's unique in this way... Unfortunately saturated markets like Toronto, Montreal, and even teams like Edmonton who generate excitement because of all their young stars, don't want to pay for this extra...

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01-24-2013, 10:11 AM
  #111
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Of course you look for that. Historically though, most times you don't find it. See my post above.
Isn't exactly what you proposed (Paajarvi, Klefbom and a first), what I said would be a fair deal?

Subban for a high end prospect +. Klefbom is a high end prospect, I still think Paajarvi could be a good 2nd/3rd line forward, and that first round pick will probably be in the middle range. That sounds like a fair offer to me, strictly value speaking.

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01-24-2013, 10:12 AM
  #112
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They want couturier, and every other lopsided offer benefiting the habs.
Nah, we'd rather get hosed in a deal.

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01-24-2013, 10:14 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
Compare that to Subban who plays against #1 lines.

Del Zotto is not worth anything close to Subban

Who would'a thunk it?
And where did I say that MDZ = Subban? In fact I explicitly said that Subban is more valuable than MDZ in the previous thread. I just took issue with you calling him "garbage", which he clearly isn't.

If you want to debate the abilities of MDZ, refrain from using strawmen.

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01-24-2013, 10:16 AM
  #114
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Nah, we'd rather get hosed in a deal.
I guess my idea of lopsided is different than yours.

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01-24-2013, 10:16 AM
  #115
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Isn't exactly what you proposed (Paajarvi, Klefbom and a first), what I said would be a fair deal?

Subban for a high end prospect +. Klefbom is a high end prospect, I still think Paajarvi could be a good 2nd/3rd line forward, and that first round pick will probably be in the middle range. That sounds like a fair offer to me, strictly value speaking.
Why would we trade the best player RIGHT NOW for players who do not have the ceiling to become as good as Subban is right now? That makes no sense.

blah blah blah, prospects we don't know how good they'll be. It's not worth rolling the dice on above average prospects when Subban is a star and has the potential to be an ELITE talent.

Quantity will never be > quality when it comes to trading stars. It just makes no sense especially when they're not impending UFA's.

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01-24-2013, 10:17 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
1: if subban's not a big body at 6'0 and what is he at now? 220? then i'd love know what your definition of 'big body' is...

2: nobody ever claimed he ever was a QB, he is and always has been, the shooter on the pp.

3: over-dramatized ********. 'fights with teammates'? i'd advise you to look at the video of those 'fights' if you can find it. again, i'll question your definition of the word 'fight'...

'appears to rub his teammates the wrong way'... give me quotes, not hearsay. im a nice guy, i'll save you the time: don't bother, you won't find them...
1) Subban is strong but is lacking in height. Reach is very important for a D-man in the NHL. Subban can't be matched up againts elite forwards in the league. If he could, Habs wouldn't have cought up as much leads last year.

2) A number 1 Dman needs to be able to run a PP. Habs PP last year was awful. He can't distribute the puck and his shooting is erratic.

3) When Markov was asked about Subban, he replied ''Next question''.

http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot...ent-on-pk.html

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01-24-2013, 10:17 AM
  #117
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And where did I say that MDZ = Subban? In fact I explicitly said that Subban is more valuable than MDZ in the previous thread. I just took issue with you calling him "garbage", which he clearly isn't.

If you want to debate the abilities of MDZ, refrain from using strawmen.
MDZ is def not garbage...he's a good young d-man, but maybe a tier below Subban. As mentionned in a previous post, I wouldn't mind including him in a trade for Subban, but I don't think Bergevin will trade him to a competitor in the same conference..

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01-24-2013, 10:18 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
Compare that to Subban who plays against #1 lines.

Del Zotto is not worth anything close to Subban

Who would'a thunk it?
Yeah and it went good for Montreal last season I heard?

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01-24-2013, 10:19 AM
  #119
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Why would we trade the best player RIGHT NOW for players who do not have the ceiling to become as good as Subban is right now? That makes no sense.

blah blah blah, prospects we don't know how good they'll be. It's not worth rolling the dice on above average prospects when Subban is a star and has the potential to be an ELITE talent.

Quantity will never be > quality when it comes to trading stars. It just makes no sense especially when they're not impending UFA's.
You take this deal, because it would be one of the better offers for Subban.

Montreal doesn't have the upper hand right now, over any team.

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01-24-2013, 10:20 AM
  #120
Pierre Dagenais
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Originally Posted by Rangerboy030 View Post
And where did I say that MDZ = Subban? In fact I explicitly said that Subban is more valuable than MDZ in the previous thread. I just took issue with you calling him "garbage", which he clearly isn't.

If you want to debate the abilities of MDZ, refrain from using strawmen.
He's not a top pairing defenseman and he plays against weak opponents. He would be garbage on the Habs because we don't have guys like Girardi and McDonagh to be our 1st pairing.

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01-24-2013, 10:21 AM
  #121
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I guess my idea of lopsided is different than yours.
What is lopsided for you? We can't have a very good prospect for Subban a guy who has already proven himself to be of the best defensive defenseman in the league and who can also create offense. My Columbus trade was a joke by the way, and yes we want more than a prospect who hasn't proven he can be good in the NHL.

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01-24-2013, 10:21 AM
  #122
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You take this deal, because it would be one of the better offers for Subban.

Montreal doesn't have the upper hand right now, over an team.
How do they not have the upper hand? They own his rights for 4 more years if they so chose.


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01-24-2013, 10:21 AM
  #123
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You take this deal, because it would be one of the better offers for Subban.

Montreal doesn't have the upper hand right now, over any team.
And I have said from the very beggining that one of your 1st overall certainly would be out of the question.

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01-24-2013, 10:22 AM
  #124
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He's not a top pairing defenseman and he plays against weak opponents. He would be garbage on the Habs because we don't have guys like Girardi and McDonagh to be our 1st pairing.
'Weak Competition' is quite a stretch.

He was 3rd behind Girardi and McDonagh in QUALCOMP. He played against other team's 2nd lines.

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01-24-2013, 10:22 AM
  #125
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Why would we trade the best player RIGHT NOW for players who do not have the ceiling to become as good as Subban is right now? That makes no sense.

blah blah blah, prospects we don't know how good they'll be. It's not worth rolling the dice on above average prospects when Subban is a star and has the potential to be an ELITE talent.

Quantity will never be > quality when it comes to trading stars. It just makes no sense especially when they're not impending UFA's.
I agree. Hence the post I made before that one, and the "strictly value" at the end of the post you quoted. When you add up all those pieces, sure they may be close in value, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

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