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The hole on the second line (Tangradi -> Kennedy -> Glass -> ???)

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01-25-2013, 10:31 AM
  #151
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
You know, for how much me and others rag on ET, I really do feel bad for the kid.

He put a ton of effort this off season training and playing in the AHL and looked good, but without a regular training camp he's kinda had to fly by night on a line that already had great chemistry. And its only been 3 games and he's written off.

DVE played the interview this morning that Mike P did with him yesterday, and he impressed me with how he's handling all this. He acknowledges he wasn't good against Toronto and takes responsibility for improving. He cited nervousness and over thinking because he didn't want to mess up, which led to him... messing up, but honestly I dont blame him when DB benches him for any little mistake. He's probably a nervous wreck out there.

Obviously he needs work but 4:30 of TOI and 3 shifts in the last two periods isn't the way to do it.
My problem has always been that Tangradi is the only one benched for his mistakes during a game.

Despres made a ton of mistakes in the first two games, but never missed a shift, which is what you should be doing with a young guy.

Jeffrey made several huge errors in the first game and kept getting a regular shift on the fourth line. His blind pass to the middle of the ice towards the end of the game finally sealed his fate with Vitale waiting to play the next night.

Engo played a piss poor game agt.. Toronto and never missed a shift.

Kunitz is playing poorly and taking bad penalties.... But never misses a shift.

I could go all the way back to last season and point out a number of players including Lovejoy and Adams who should of been benched in games, but never were.

As soon as Tangradi messes up, he gets benched. Then people wonder why he "sucks" and plays tentative. You won't get the best out of any player, especially a young kid, when you turn him into a basket case with routine benchings for every mistake he makes.

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01-25-2013, 11:20 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
You know, for how much me and others rag on ET, I really do feel bad for the kid.

He put a ton of effort this off season training and playing in the AHL and looked good, but without a regular training camp he's kinda had to fly by night on a line that already had great chemistry. And its only been 3 games and he's written off.

DVE played the interview this morning that Mike P did with him yesterday, and he impressed me with how he's handling all this. He acknowledges he wasn't good against Toronto and takes responsibility for improving. He cited nervousness and over thinking because he didn't want to mess up, which led to him... messing up, but honestly I dont blame him when DB benches him for any little mistake. He's probably a nervous wreck out there.

Obviously he needs work but 4:30 of TOI and 3 shifts in the last two periods isn't the way to do it.
He had a hot start and went cold for over a month after that. Also, yeah he didn't have a long training camp but while he doesn't look slow he sure as hell doesn't look like he has an advantage from playing hockey this whole season while the NHLers sat.

I do agree I can see a guy trying to think too much about how to fit in with linemates like his, but this BS about being a nervous wreck is insane hyperbole. Look at all the young guys that have made impacts on their teams the last 2-3 years. Did they look nervous to you? That whole angle is either a fallacy or a flaw in his game. Likely the former, but still come on.

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01-25-2013, 11:30 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
He had a hot start and went cold for over a month after that. Also, yeah he didn't have a long training camp but while he doesn't look slow he sure as hell doesn't look like he has an advantage from playing hockey this whole season while the NHLers sat.

I do agree I can see a guy trying to think too much about how to fit in with linemates like his, but this BS about being a nervous wreck is insane hyperbole. Look at all the young guys that have made impacts on their teams the last 2-3 years. Did they look nervous to you? That whole angle is either a fallacy or a flaw in his game. Likely the former, but still come on.
I really don't know how anyone can argue that Tangradi has been handle properly or given a fair chance to be an NHL player.

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01-25-2013, 11:35 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
He had a hot start and went cold for over a month after that. Also, yeah he didn't have a long training camp but while he doesn't look slow he sure as hell doesn't look like he has an advantage from playing hockey this whole season while the NHLers sat.

I do agree I can see a guy trying to think too much about how to fit in with linemates like his, but this BS about being a nervous wreck is insane hyperbole. Look at all the young guys that have made impacts on their teams the last 2-3 years. Did they look nervous to you? That whole angle is either a fallacy or a flaw in his game. Likely the former, but still come on.
I can't remember if you said you ever played the game, but that statement right there is silly. If you did play, are you telling me when you moved up through the divisions, you didn't get nervous wondering if you could hang with better players?

I played a vastly different game when I was nervous vs. when I found my confidence. I remember going to national tourneys and watching guys warm up and wondering if I was good enough to play agt. them. Not until I got out there and proved it to myself, did I know for sure. Even the top players I got to know, admitted the same thing.

You wouldn't get nervous playing in the best league in the world, with a coach who routinely benches you for making mistakes?

I mean, c'mon UB. Tell me you think he sucks and isn't an NHL player, but don't tell me he isn't nervous.

That is obvious as day.

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01-25-2013, 12:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I really don't know how anyone can argue that Tangradi has been handle properly or given a fair chance to be an NHL player.
I don't think that even his biggest detractors could do that in good faith.

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01-25-2013, 12:25 PM
  #156
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Well you know after a day of practice it's pretty clear this TK on line 2 thing isn't working. Time to find better options.
Who's with me?!

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01-25-2013, 12:33 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Well you know after a day of practice it's pretty clear this TK on line 2 thing isn't working. Time to find better options.
Who's with me?!
I think it's obvious by now that Shero needs to beg Kip Miller to come out of retirement.

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01-25-2013, 12:40 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can't remember if you said you ever played the game, but that statement right there is silly. If you did play, are you telling me when you moved up through the divisions, you didn't get nervous wondering if you could hang with better players?

I played a vastly different game when I was nervous vs. when I found my confidence. I remember going to national tourneys and watching guys warm up and wondering if I was good enough to play agt. them. Not until I got out there and proved it to myself, did I know for sure. Even the top players I got to know, admitted the same thing.

You wouldn't get nervous playing in the best league in the world, with a coach who routinely benches you for making mistakes?

I mean, c'mon UB. Tell me you think he sucks and isn't an NHL player, but don't tell me he isn't nervous.

That is obvious as day.
Yup I agree 100%.

Now you could argue that Tangradi doesn't have the mental toughness to play in the NHL, but to deny nervousness as a factor is silly.

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01-25-2013, 12:44 PM
  #159
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Lines for tonight's game..


Kunitz-crosby-Dupuis
Kennedy*-malkin-neal
Cooke-Sutter-Glass*
Tangradi*-Vitale-Adams

*There are a few changes since last game. Tk on malkin's, Glass on Sutter's line and tangradi on Vitale's line.

The D pairings are

Orpik-Martin
Niskanen-letang
Engelland-Lovejoy*

*one change. Lovejoy is in and Despres is out.

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01-25-2013, 12:50 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think it's obvious by now that Shero needs to beg Kip Miller to come out of retirement.
I figured that's why he signed Kospadopalus or whatever his name is.

Oh ****, give me a TK-Sid-TK line.

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01-25-2013, 12:50 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
Lines for tonight's game..


Kunitz-crosby-Dupuis
Kennedy*-malkin-neal
Cooke-Sutter-Glass*
Tangradi*-Vitale-Adams

*There are a few changes since last game. Tk on malkin's, Glass on Sutter's line and tangradi on Vitale's line.

The D pairings are

Orpik-Martin
Niskanen-letang
Engelland-Lovejoy*

*one change. Lovejoy is in and Despres is out.
I really hope the Penguins aren't scapegoating Tangradi for that loss.

And if he is being punished, why the hell are they messing with the other lines? Don't screw up team chemistry just because you're dissatisfied with one player.

If Tangradi doesn't work out, and the Pens don't acquire another top 6 forward via trade, I'd like to see them use these lines:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Dupuis-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale/Jeffrey-Adams

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01-25-2013, 01:00 PM
  #162
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(Paste from GDT) Just a thought on the reunited Lovejoy-Engo pairing: As we watch that train wreck, maybe we won't notice what a train wreck TK as L2 LW will be. Maybe that's Bylsma's plan.

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01-25-2013, 01:01 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yup I agree 100%.

Now you could argue that Tangradi doesn't have the mental toughness to play in the NHL, but to deny nervousness as a factor is silly.
I obviously doubt it, but wouldn't rule it out.

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01-25-2013, 01:05 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can't remember if you said you ever played the game, but that statement right there is silly. If you did play, are you telling me when you moved up through the divisions, you didn't get nervous wondering if you could hang with better players?

I played a vastly different game when I was nervous vs. when I found my confidence. I remember going to national tourneys and watching guys warm up and wondering if I was good enough to play agt. them. Not until I got out there and proved it to myself, did I know for sure. Even the top players I got to know, admitted the same thing.

You wouldn't get nervous playing in the best league in the world, with a coach who routinely benches you for making mistakes?

I mean, c'mon UB. Tell me you think he sucks and isn't an NHL player, but don't tell me he isn't nervous.

That is obvious as day.
I've played and still do, though I'm in the group of HFers that readily admits that after high school my competitive days were over (I think we are up to 3-4 members).

Make of that what you will, but I tried to even it out a little by prefacing it with the thing about growing pains/meshing/whatever. I totally buy that you might try to play a different game and okay yeah, nervous sure. I can buy that too, but the flip side is that you've got to get over it and play some nice hockey. Plus the post was a shot at the usual hyperbole. If you want to throw nervousness/being unsure into the mix of reasons he could be playing better that's fine, but a paragraph or two about being a "nervous wreck" is pretty out there. For the most part these guys don't get to the pro level if they're that bothered.

I can't be sure what the coaches are telling him of course, however I'm sure it's the usual line about playing Eric Tangradi hockey. Whatever that is he should buck up and start doing so even on the fourth line. I don't think that's going to translate into sticking at this level, but I guess we'll see.

Just show me something besides passable board work once in a blue moon. Don't talk about being nervous when you've played some games at this level and are familiar with these players. You're right, being a little nervous is part of the equation I'm just not going to attribute a whole lot to it.

Excuse the novel. Definitely the most I've written on a fairly inconsequential line of conversation.

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01-25-2013, 01:06 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
I really hope the Penguins aren't scapegoating Tangradi for that loss.
Where on earth did you get that from? They're mixing up the lines because they want to see if moving a few things around will generate more consistency. Experimenting early in the season works more than one way.

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01-25-2013, 01:53 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I've played and still do, though I'm in the group of HFers that readily admits that after high school my competitive days were over (I think we are up to 3-4 members).
I think I've seen more people admit on these boards they knew/know they aren't getting to the NHL, than those who are in denial. The point still remains that anyone who grew up playing the sport would surely understand nerves play a huge part in your game when you step up a level..

Everyone is different, but the guys who handle their nerves better in the beggining are not necessarily the best players.

Quote:
Make of that what you will, but I tried to even it out a little by prefacing it with the thing about growing pains/meshing/whatever. I totally buy that you might try to play a different game and okay yeah, nervous sure. I can buy that too, but the flip side is that you've got to get over it and play some nice hockey. Plus the post was a shot at the usual hyperbole. If you want to throw nervousness/being unsure into the mix of reasons he could be playing better that's fine, but a paragraph or two about being a "nervous wreck" is pretty out there. For the most part these guys don't get to the pro level if they're that bothered.

I can't be sure what the coaches are telling him of course, however I'm sure it's the usual line about playing Eric Tangradi hockey. Whatever that is he should buck up and start doing so even on the fourth line. I don't think that's going to translate into sticking at this level, but I guess we'll see.

Just show me something besides passable board work once in a blue moon. Don't talk about being nervous when you've played some games at this level and are familiar with these players. You're right, being a little nervous is part of the equation I'm just not going to attribute a whole lot to it.

Excuse the novel. Definitely the most I've written on a fairly inconsequential line of conversation.
If you are playing agt better, more experienced players, that isn't an easy thing to do for any young guy. Some guys have the natural talent to get by until they figure things out. Tangradi isn't an elite level talent who can pull that off.

And calling him a nervous wreck is spot on in my opinion. I've seen him carry the puck on a two on one countless times and he always takes it to the post and more often than not reads the play correctly. The other day he went wide to the boards and looked like a pickup hockey player who had no clue how to play that.

That's nerves. That's a guy thinking and not playing naturally. That is a guy who is so worried about being benched, that he no longer trusts himself. If you aren't allowed to make mistakes without being allowed to make up for it, how can you ever learn?

He makes a mistake, then DB glues him to the bench to think about it and obsess over it... Then after he misses 4 or 5 shifts he is finally put back out. No matter what you think of ET, there is no way you can agree this is how you handle a young kid.

All I want is a regular 4th line shift for him, game after game. It isn't a crazy concept or a chance he didn't earn last season.

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01-25-2013, 02:00 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
Lines for tonight's game..


Kunitz-crosby-Dupuis
Kennedy*-malkin-neal
Cooke-Sutter-Glass*
Tangradi*-Vitale-Adams

*There are a few changes since last game. Tk on malkin's, Glass on Sutter's line and tangradi on Vitale's line.

The D pairings are

Orpik-Martin
Niskanen-letang
Engelland-Lovejoy*

*one change. Lovejoy is in and Despres is out.
BARFFFFF God help us all... well at least we are playing a pretty nonphysical team so we wont see BLJ shying away from contact only to turn the puck over 3 times a shift.

I really can't believe he is still around... I thought for sure RS would have tried to flip him for a low pick of some sort. Oh well...

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01-25-2013, 02:02 PM
  #168
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On a side note since glass is returning to the peg, do you think he throws down with anyone right off the hope again or close to it? Maybe torburn?

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01-25-2013, 02:45 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Where on earth did you get that from? They're mixing up the lines because they want to see if moving a few things around will generate more consistency. Experimenting early in the season works more than one way.
If they want more from him, they won't get it with him being on the 4th line. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy was a good line. Why break that up just to make a point with Tangradi?

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01-25-2013, 02:47 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
If they want more from him, they won't get it with him being on the 4th line. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy was a good line. Why break that up just to make a point with Tangradi?
Don't you get it? They are trying to hold Tangradi accountable for his horrible play. He needs to learn that you can't make mistakes and play for this team. The best rule of thumb is to show zero confidence in a player if you ever want them to develop into something.

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01-25-2013, 02:48 PM
  #171
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If they want more from him, they won't get it with him being on the 4th line. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy was a good line. Why break that up just to make a point with Tangradi?
I don't think it's that I think it's just trying something else on that 2nd line and hoping Glass can at least help the 3rd line stay regular without TK, which isn't too bad a bet.

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01-25-2013, 02:50 PM
  #172
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Until Sid gets back to form, we could use a bit of depth scoring. Replacing TK with Glass on the third line isn't exactly the best way to do that.

We'll see.

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01-25-2013, 02:56 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think I've seen more people admit on these boards they knew/know they aren't getting to the NHL, than those who are in denial. The point still remains that anyone who grew up playing the sport would surely understand nerves play a huge part in your game when you step up a level..

Everyone is different, but the guys who handle their nerves better in the beggining are not necessarily the best players.



If you are playing agt better, more experienced players, that isn't an easy thing to do for any young guy. Some guys have the natural talent to get by until they figure things out. Tangradi isn't an elite level talent who can pull that off.

And calling him a nervous wreck is spot on in my opinion. I've seen him carry the puck on a two on one countless times and he always takes it to the post and more often than not reads the play correctly. The other day he went wide to the boards and looked like a pickup hockey player who had no clue how to play that.

That's nerves. That's a guy thinking and not playing naturally. That is a guy who is so worried about being benched, that he no longer trusts himself. If you aren't allowed to make mistakes without being allowed to make up for it, how can you ever learn?

He makes a mistake, then DB glues him to the bench to think about it and obsess over it... Then after he misses 4 or 5 shifts he is finally put back out. No matter what you think of ET, there is no way you can agree this is how you handle a young kid.

All I want is a regular 4th line shift for him, game after game. It isn't a crazy concept or a chance he didn't earn last season.
Agree to disagree, and I know you're probably shaking your head in disbelief at that, I just think that nerves are a factor but not anywhere to the degree you're saying. I know he hasn't played a ton but he's logged 40+ NHL games now. Yeah the linemates are great and the pressure to produce is there, but I think despite all that you just play hockey after awhile. I've never heard of a documented case where a player was just so blown away by his linemates that he was rendered virtually ineffective for 3 games but in reality had much more talent.

I agree the benching is weird and it has always seemed like Bylsma has had it out for him. To your point a regular shift on the 4th line is likely a good thing. As Grove mentioned this morning, the pressure will be off and he'll be getting a regular shift. My only word of caution is that, whatever line he's on, he is going to have to show at least a Matt Cooke-level of potential for offense at some point very soon.

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01-25-2013, 03:01 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I don't think it's that I think it's just trying something else on that 2nd line and hoping Glass can at least help the 3rd line stay regular without TK, which isn't too bad a bet.
So they should do that after one bad game? Tangradi was hardly out there. Yes, he made a poor pass that could've set Malkin up for a goal, but was that really the worst thing that happened to the Pens that night? If any one player should be blamed for the Leafs game, it's Malkin.

Those of you who expect that Tangradi would be the next Kevin Stevens should only be mad at yourselves and not Tangradi for making such expectations. His game won't be measured so much by how many points he gets, but rather how much of an edge he plays with. He needs to start using his body and strength and become a mean son of a *****. Could say the same about Despres.

This just has scapegoating written all over it.

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01-25-2013, 03:03 PM
  #175
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I have faith that TK will be better than ET, and I have faith that TG will fit well on the third line. As for ET on the the 4th line, meh.

Kennedy looked good so far this season. I don't think he's the long-term solution but until a deal is made, might as well try this out.

I would like to see Jeffrey get a shot on that line, but TK's experience and good play so far this season has earned him a shot before DJ.





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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
So they should do that after one bad game? Tangradi was hardly out there. Yes, he made a poor pass that could've set Malkin up for a goal, but was that really the worst thing that happened to the Pens that night? If any one player should be blamed for the Leafs game, it's Malkin.

Those of you who expect that Tangradi would be the next Kevin Stevens should only be mad at yourselves and not Tangradi for making such expectations. His game won't be measured so much by how many points he gets, but rather how much of an edge he plays with. He needs to start using his body and strength and become a mean son of a *****. Could say the same about Despres.

This just has scapegoating written all over it.

I really want Tangradi to do well, but aside from merely being competent in something like one playoff game last year, I've never seen anything out of him. I isolated on him during a couple of shifts during the home opener and didn't see any edge from this guy. And he was no better than adequate in a "he didn't get in the way" sense prior to the home opener. I've isolated on him during home games previously and never saw anything that give me hope he will bring grit or scoring to the team. Yet I keep looking and tell myself that it has to be there.


Last edited by mrzeigler: 01-25-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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