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The hole on the second line (Tangradi -> Kennedy -> Glass -> ???)

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #176
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
So they should do that after one bad game? Tangradi was hardly out there. Yes, he made a poor pass that could've set Malkin up for a goal, but was that really the worst thing that happened to the Pens that night? If any one player should be blamed for the Leafs game, it's Malkin.

Those of you who expect that Tangradi would be the next Kevin Stevens should only be mad at yourselves and not Tangradi for making such expectations. His game won't be measured so much by how many points he gets, but rather how much of an edge he plays with. He needs to start using his body and strength and become a mean son of a *****. Could say the same about Despres.

This just has scapegoating written all over it.
You keep looking at it from an individual player perspective, this was a team move. You're insistent upon it being about punishing Tangradi and it's not. They looked at the lineup and thought they could score more goals trying it this way. We'll see if they're right or not.

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01-25-2013, 04:14 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
You keep looking at it from an individual player perspective, this was a team move. You're insistent upon it being about punishing Tangradi and it's not.
So breaking up a good third-line is a good "team move?" Moving Tangradi down to the fourth line where he plays less when the team wants more from him is a good "team move?" If these are team moves, it's a complete joke and seems very knee-jerkish after one bad game.

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01-25-2013, 04:24 PM
  #178
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So breaking up a good third-line is a good "team move?" Moving Tangradi down to the fourth line where he plays less when the team wants more from him is a good "team move?" If these are team moves, it's a complete joke and seems very knee-jerkish after one bad game.
You know what's worse than him playing on the fourth line? Forcing him to play on Malkin's line when he shouldn't and having him tally 7-8 points in 48 games. You have to see that that is a very real possibility. That would be a huge blow to any chance he might have of turning into anything worth having on an NHL roster, to the point where I think everyone should now realize that the only reason he was there in the first place was the front office hoping it'd work on a wing and a prayer, because they don't have anyone else right now.

It's not after one bad game. He played three games and they felt trying something else was worth it. Like I said, experimenting because it's early can mean many things. That's all they're doing.

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01-25-2013, 04:26 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
So breaking up a good third-line is a good "team move?" Moving Tangradi down to the fourth line where he plays less when the team wants more from him is a good "team move?" If these are team moves, it's a complete joke and seems very knee-jerkish after one bad game.
There is much less risk of moving Glass to L3 and TK to L2 than leaving Tangradi on L1a/b to give him time to figure things out.

This is a 48-game season. Teams that thing they can afford long experiments are teams that are going to have forgettable seasons.

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01-25-2013, 04:32 PM
  #180
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Agree to disagree, and I know you're probably shaking your head in disbelief at that, I just think that nerves are a factor but not anywhere to the degree you're saying. I know he hasn't played a ton but he's logged 40+ NHL games now. Yeah the linemates are great and the pressure to produce is there, but I think despite all that you just play hockey after awhile. I've never heard of a documented case where a player was just so blown away by his linemates that he was rendered virtually ineffective for 3 games but in reality had much more talent.

I agree the benching is weird and it has always seemed like Bylsma has had it out for him. To your point a regular shift on the 4th line is likely a good thing. As Grove mentioned this morning, the pressure will be off and he'll be getting a regular shift. My only word of caution is that, whatever line he's on, he is going to have to show at least a Matt Cooke-level of potential for offense at some point very soon.
I'm not really shaking my head TBTH. I'm trying to have an open mind to your perspective.

I think we have gone back and forth on this tired ass issue dozens of times. So you are quite familiar with my stance that Tangradi should of been on the fourth line earning steady minutes by now. Really, that's all I wanted and expected for him... Nothing more. It's absurd it hasn't happened yet.

Most people wanted this kid to be the love child of Bertuzzi and Stevens and they want it now. I have told you many times he may just be a talented third liner, but I'm ok with that. It's the people who can't come to grips that he isn't going to be what they built him up to be in their minds. All of these tools pissing all over him need a grip on reality.

He just needs to play in a small, consistent role and the kid will be fine. He may not be what these people want, but I couldn't give two left balls. I'm confident he will carve out a niche in due time that helps this team. That's what matters to me, nothing else.

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01-25-2013, 04:33 PM
  #181
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You know what's worse than him playing on the fourth line? Forcing him to play on Malkin's line when he shouldn't and having him tally 7-8 points in 48 games. You have to see that that is a very real possibility. That would be a huge blow to any chance he might have of turning into anything worth having on an NHL roster, to the point where I think everyone should now realize that the only reason he was there in the first place was the front office hoping it'd work on a wing and a prayer, because they don't have anyone else right now.

It's not after one bad game. He played three games and they felt trying something else was worth it. Like I said, experimenting because it's early can mean many things. That's all they're doing.
What did Tangradi do wrong in the first two games? Not score a goal? Neither did Crosby. Guess they should demote him too.

See, you're one of the people who expect Tangradi to be the next Kevin Stevens. Tangradi's purpose isn't so much about skill, that's what Malkin and Neal do. His purpose is to use his big body. Get to the dirty areas, stand in front of the net. Does he need to do better in that regard? Yes. He needs to play meaner and with an edge. But demoting him and altering the line up after the team played one bad game seems very knee-jerkish.

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01-25-2013, 04:37 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm not really shaking my head TBTH. I'm trying to have an open mind to your perspective.

I think we have gone back and forth on this tired ass issue dozens of times. So you are quite familiar with my stance that Tangradi should of been on the fourth line earning steady minutes by now. Really, that's all I wanted and expected for him... Nothing more. It's absurd it hasn't happened yet.

Most people wanted this kid to be the love child of Bertuzzi and Stevens and they want it now. I have told you many times he may just be a talented third liner, but I'm ok with that. It's the people who can't come to grips that he isn't going to be what they built him up to be in their minds. All of these tools pissing all over him need a grip on reality.

He just needs to play in a small, consistent role and the kid will be fine. He may not be what these people want, but I couldn't give two left balls. I'm confident he will carve out a niche in due time that helps this team. That's what matters to me, nothing else.
Yeah I personally don't see it but that's just a rehash of where we both stand with it. Like I said in the egregious poll thread, you've got to have a little offensive punch to even play on the 3rd line. I'm not sure he even has that. Some guys truly can't manage 10 goals in 82 games, just the way it is. We'll see. Pucks bouncing the right way for a guy in a short span can springboard his progression.

My only question would be that I thought at one time you considered him more of a playmaker. I don't know a lot of 3rd liners that fit that role, so I would be curious to get a Cliff notes version of what type of role he would fill if he became a top 9 regular but not a 25 goal scorer.

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01-25-2013, 04:40 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
What did Tangradi do wrong in the first two games? Not score a goal? Neither did Crosby. Guess they should demote him too.

See, you're one of the people who expect Tangradi to be the next Kevin Stevens. Tangradi's purpose isn't so much about skill, that's what Malkin and Neal do. His purpose is to use his big body. Get to the dirty areas, stand in front of the net. Does he need to do better in that regard? Yes. He needs to play meaner and with an edge. But demoting him and altering the line up after the team played one bad game seems very knee-jerkish.
No, I'm not one of those people actually. I don't like the player. I don't think he has most of what makes a player a worthy NHLer, but you've got me in the wrong place on the insane expectations scale.

If you can't look at this from a team perspective I can't help you. I wouldn't even say you have blinders on. It's more like an Eric Tangradi skin suit the likes of which Hannibal Lector would rave about until the end of his days.

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01-25-2013, 04:54 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Yeah I personally don't see it but that's just a rehash of where we both stand with it. Like I said in the egregious poll thread, you've got to have a little offensive punch to even play on the 3rd line. I'm not sure he even has that. Some guys truly can't manage 10 goals in 82 games, just the way it is. We'll see. Pucks bouncing the right way for a guy in a short span can springboard his progression.

My only question would be that I thought at one time you considered him more of a playmaker. I don't know a lot of 3rd liners that fit that role, so I would be curious to get a Cliff notes version of what type of role he would fill if he became a top 9 regular but not a 25 goal scorer.
I think his playmaking could be an attribute on a grinding line as well as his ability to protect the puck and cause problems in front of the net. He and Vitale were a wrecking crew two seasons ago on the third line together in the A. Tangradi knows how to hit and battle. It will come if he is allowed to play regularly, especially with Vitale. Hitting and grinding it out is nothing new to him.

It's not like I'm pulling this stuff out of my ass and expecting him to do something I've never seen. I've seen the skill, the hitting, the net presence, etc.

My entire point is about getting value out of him. If he becomes a top six guy, a valuable third liner, or a trade asset, I'm fine with any of it. DB is a huge roadblock to this happening and he shouldn't be.

I expected this to be at least a two year process and that clock doesn't start moving until he becomes a regular in the lineup. His play last season warrants a regular fourth line shift. I don't see how that can be argued.

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01-25-2013, 04:58 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think his playmaking could be an attribute on a grinding line as well as his ability to protect the puck and cause problems in front of the net. He and Vitale were a wrecking crew two seasons ago on the third line together in the A. Tangradi knows how to hit and battle. It will come if he is allowed to play regularly, especially with Vitale. Hitting and grinding it out is nothing new to him.

It's not like I'm pulling this stuff out of my ass and expecting him to do something I've never seen. I've seen the skill, the hitting, the net presence, etc.

My entire point is about getting value out of him. If he becomes a top six guy, a valuable third liner, or a trade asset, I'm fine with any of it. DB is a huge roadblock to this happening and he shouldn't be.

I expected this to be at least a two year process and that clock doesn't start moving until he becomes a regular in the lineup. His play last season warrants a regular fourth line shift. I don't see how that can be argued.
It's just baffling how people can even argue against anything you are saying about Tangradi

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01-25-2013, 07:04 PM
  #186
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Tyler Kennedy with get 2 points tonight.

Eric Tangradi will end the night with the best +/- on the team.

Victory!!!!!

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01-25-2013, 09:44 PM
  #187
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"Good team move," huh?

Lets see here - we have a team struggling with defensive responsibility and puck management, and it's a "good team move" to put guys on their off-wings, which makes it hard to clear pucks out of their own zone. This game against Winnipeg is proving how STUPID the idea was.

If they have a beef with Tangradi, fine. But you don't screw the rest of the team over by putting guys in positions where they have less chance of success.

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01-25-2013, 09:57 PM
  #188
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tk's always been one of my favorite pens

he's just the man

i like him in his spot and think he could hold it down till the trade deadline

if we can get a nice deal done in the meantime (i.e. neal and nisky for gogo) so be it, but no rush

one potential issue: 3rd line is significantly less effective

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01-25-2013, 09:59 PM
  #189
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If they are going to play with the lines, why not try ths.


Tangradi-Crosby-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams


Yes, give Tangradi a chance and put him with Crosby to give that line some size.

Put Kennedy back where he belongs.

Put the best line from last year back together.

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01-25-2013, 10:28 PM
  #190
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Boy, that "good team move" sure worked out well guys, didn't it?

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01-26-2013, 02:12 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
I really hope the Penguins aren't scapegoating Tangradi for that loss.

And if he is being punished, why the hell are they messing with the other lines? Don't screw up team chemistry just because you're dissatisfied with one player.

If Tangradi doesn't work out, and the Pens don't acquire another top 6 forward via trade, I'd like to see them use these lines:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Dupuis-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale/Jeffrey-Adams
I'd like to see Crosby paired up with Bennett too, but I have zero faith that Bylsma would do so. For some reason, they seem stuck on Croby being paired with Kunitz and Dupuis.

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01-26-2013, 02:16 AM
  #192
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Boy, that "good team move" sure worked out well guys, didn't it?
Actually, I think it made a marginally positive difference, although it could be because Winnipeg, except for nights where Claude Noel can make an adjustment that the opposition doesn't respond to, isn't a good defensive team.

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01-26-2013, 02:47 AM
  #193
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I don't want to see anyone saying that Kennedy doesn't work on this line because of this game. He was not the reason Malkin didn't convert any of his good chances, and outside of one instance where he ****ed up not getting the puck out on his weak side (happens to lots of better players too), Kennedy did pretty much all that was required of him, and this line was consistently dangerous - well less so in the third where the Pens hardly showed up.

As for defense, Lovejoy was the reason that line got scored on on the third goal.

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01-26-2013, 03:05 AM
  #194
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I don't want to see anyone saying that Kennedy doesn't work on this line because of this game. He was not the reason Malkin didn't convert any of his good chances, and outside of one instance where he ****ed up not getting the puck out on his weak side (happens to lots of better players too), Kennedy did pretty much all that was required of him, and this line was consistently dangerous - well less so in the third where the Pens hardly showed up.
Agreed. The line was generating offense for most of the night and has looked better than at any other point in this short season. I don't see any reason to break them up with our remaining options. With that said, a top 9 forward has to be targeted by the trade deadline. I don't want Tanner Glass on the third line, let alone taking shifts in the top 6.

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01-26-2013, 09:33 AM
  #195
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I don't want to see anyone saying that Kennedy doesn't work on this line because of this game. He was not the reason Malkin didn't convert any of his good chances, and outside of one instance where he ****ed up not getting the puck out on his weak side (happens to lots of better players too), Kennedy did pretty much all that was required of him, and this line was consistently dangerous - well less so in the third where the Pens hardly showed up.

As for defense, Lovejoy was the reason that line got scored on on the third goal.
"All he does is chest snipe"
.....
and produce points.

I am glad he finally gets his top 6 shot, but I don't like him on Malkin's line. This is not due to TK fault, he's played well there IMO. Kunitz and Malkin are both having terrible starts this year. I would rather see if reuniting the KMN line again can jump start them out of their defensive funk. TK seems to be focused and bring his high intensity on fairly consistent basis regardless of linemates.

TK still stays in the top 6 until a better option makes itself available. I'd like to see him with Crosby and Dupers. That line needs another shooter. I also think Crosby would benefit more from TK's shooting. Crosby tends to stay closer to the net than Malkin without the puck, so I would think he's be in better shape to knock home some of TK's rebounds. TK could also feed Crosby's shot between the dots.

There is no reason this top 6 should be getting dominated at 5v5 like they have been the last couple games.

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01-27-2013, 11:48 AM
  #196
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Actually, I think it made a marginally positive difference, although it could be because Winnipeg, except for nights where Claude Noel can make an adjustment that the opposition doesn't respond to, isn't a good defensive team.
Not in the defensive zone. Kennedy and Cooke were clearly having problems getting the puck out of their own zone on their off-wing. This team already has problems getting the puck out of their own end when guys are on their natural sides, no need to make it harder.

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01-27-2013, 11:49 AM
  #197
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Not in the defensive zone. Kennedy and Cooke were clearly having problems getting the puck out of their own zone on their off-wing. This team already has problems getting the puck out of their own end when guys are on their natural sides, no need to make it harder.
True. I was addressing the offensive difference, and you know with DB that's how you should measure it.

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01-27-2013, 11:58 AM
  #198
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True. I was addressing the offensive difference, and you know with DB that's how you should measure it.
Fair enough. Guys shoot and score goals on this team from all over the ice, but if DB is really serious about puck management he should know better.

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01-27-2013, 11:59 AM
  #199
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In no way shape or form should Kennedy see the ice with Malkin and Neal again. Not with Kennedy being a turnover machine on his off wing in his own zone. That doesn't even cover the fact that he's just not a natural fit with either players.

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01-27-2013, 12:06 PM
  #200
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In no way shape or form should Kennedy see the ice with Malkin and Neal again. Not with Kennedy being a turnover machine on his off wing in his own zone. That doesn't even cover the fact that he's just not a natural fit with either players.
I thought he played fine, especially considering the alternatives.

Or are you advocating Jeffery up there? Or Adams

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