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Nonis blows up TO's line-up!

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Old
02-13-2013, 01:33 AM
  #1
hobarth
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Nonis blows up TO's line-up!

TO presently has 7 players on the team that didn't play with TO last year. I was just looking at the line-up and realized there is a significant change in personnel from last year.

New players: JVR
Komarov
Kostka
McClement
Holzer
Fraser
McLaren

That's a significant change but it doesn't stop there as there are other players that were not considered everyday players last year.

Graduate players: Kadri
Frattin

That's 9 players that were not considered part of the fabric from which TO would weave it's future. Of coarse JVR, Komarov, Kostka, McClement, Fraser, and McLaren weren't on TO last year but Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were. Some will say they needed more time to develop and that may very well be but if Kadri and Frattin had by some chance produced like they are now don't we think BB would still be pres./GM/Ambassador/etc. for the Leafs, I do. TO had a long run of success last year seemingly based on the production of 1 line with some input from the second. Defense and goaltending never amounted to much so offense was our beacon last year.

If BB and Wilson were wrong last year and Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were ready, just never given an adequate chance to show what they could do, they'd probably still be here. What's even more pathetic is we might not have to have been exposed to that crappy team last year. Oh well, at least we should have Reilly for the future and he might be that 1 player that could elevate TO from a playoff team to a perennial Stanley Cup contender.

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02-13-2013, 01:40 AM
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Leafs87
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I would consider all the new players besides jvr and mcclement graduated players

But Wilson did not fit in with the teams style and bb was a great gm but had some terrible flaws which made his firing understandable.. First off nonis I think had a huge part in Burkes success. The flaws I mentioned earlier are his Christmas freezes, not good at judging a teams impact, impatient and he was a huge media hungry freak. I also wasn't a fan of him missing July 1st for questionable reasons, and his signings were borderline terrible

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02-13-2013, 01:50 AM
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Burke traded for JVR and Fraser. Burke signed Kostka and McClement. Burke drafted Kadri.
Komarov, Holzer and Frattin were all already in the system.
Nonis claimed McLaren off waivers.

I wouldn't quite say Nonis blew up our roster, or really added anything significant yet.

Personally I'm glad Kadri and Frattin spent most of the season last year in the AHL. That downward spiral got pretty ugly and there was just a toxic atmosphere around the dressing room that I wouldn't want our rookies to be apart of. I don't think Naz and Matt would have been enough to turn around that losing streak and not be that "crappy team" we had to watch for the second half of the season. They had a good season with the Marlies, had a nice playoff run and it doesn't seem to have had any apparent negative effect on their development.

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02-13-2013, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haayward View Post
Burke traded for JVR and Fraser. Burke signed Kostka and McClement. Burke drafted Kadri.
Komarov, Holzer and Frattin were all already in the system.
Nonis claimed McLaren off waivers.

I wouldn't quite say Nonis blew up our roster, or really added anything significant yet.

Personally I'm glad Kadri and Frattin spent most of the season last year in the AHL. That downward spiral got pretty ugly and there was just a toxic atmosphere around the dressing room that I wouldn't want our rookies to be apart of. I don't think Naz and Matt would have been enough to turn around that losing streak and not be that "crappy team" we had to watch for the second half of the season. They had a good season with the Marlies, had a nice playoff run and it doesn't seem to have had any apparent negative effect on their development.
It's Burke's roster through and through. Although i though McLaren was insignificant at the time, he has helped shape the complexity of the team. Hope he takes a run at Chara

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02-13-2013, 02:28 AM
  #5
Ricky Bobby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobarth View Post
TO presently has 7 players on the team that didn't play with TO last year. I was just looking at the line-up and realized there is a significant change in personnel from last year.

New players: JVR
Komarov
Kostka
McClement
Holzer
Fraser
McLaren

That's a significant change but it doesn't stop there as there are other players that were not considered everyday players last year.

Graduate players: Kadri
Frattin

That's 9 players that were not considered part of the fabric from which TO would weave it's future. Of coarse JVR, Komarov, Kostka, McClement, Fraser, and McLaren weren't on TO last year but Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were. Some will say they needed more time to develop and that may very well be but if Kadri and Frattin had by some chance produced like they are now don't we think BB would still be pres./GM/Ambassador/etc. for the Leafs, I do. TO had a long run of success last year seemingly based on the production of 1 line with some input from the second. Defense and goaltending never amounted to much so offense was our beacon last year.

If BB and Wilson were wrong last year and Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were ready, just never given an adequate chance to show what they could do, they'd probably still be here. What's even more pathetic is we might not have to have been exposed to that crappy team last year. Oh well, at least we should have Reilly for the future and he might be that 1 player that could elevate TO from a playoff team to a perennial Stanley Cup contender.
Carlyle had Frattin playing with the Marlies to start the season and he got into 56 games last year. I`m not sure how he wasn`t with the team last year.

Carlyle also had Holzer starting with Marlies and it`s only been 6 games.

I still say the best thing for Kadri was to spend time in the AHL and now it`s showing. Everybody talks like he was treated so unfairly but everytime he went down he came up a better player and now he looks to be am impactful player. He also played around the same amount of AHL games as Roy, Marchand and Ribeiro did who all turned out to be good NHLers.

Better a day late than a day early!

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02-13-2013, 02:29 AM
  #6
hobarth
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Originally Posted by haayward View Post
Burke traded for JVR and Fraser. Burke signed Kostka and McClement. Burke drafted Kadri.
Komarov, Holzer and Frattin were all already in the system.
Nonis claimed McLaren off waivers.

I wouldn't quite say Nonis blew up our roster, or really added anything significant yet.

Personally I'm glad Kadri and Frattin spent most of the season last year in the AHL. That downward spiral got pretty ugly and there was just a toxic atmosphere around the dressing room that I wouldn't want our rookies to be apart of. I don't think Naz and Matt would have been enough to turn around that losing streak and not be that "crappy team" we had to watch for the second half of the season. They had a good season with the Marlies, had a nice playoff run and it doesn't seem to have had any apparent negative effect on their development.
Yes BB had a hand in all those player acquisitions, we think. but Nonis had the Kahoonies to rid TO of Connolly and Lombardi whereas BB and Wilson were willing to live or die with those 2, they died. People talk about addition by subtraction or a team cancer and those 2 players are flag bearers for those concepts and a large part of the toxic environment we had to endure last year.

TO needed new blood last year youthful, enthusiastic and talented, what we got was tired, under-motivated, injury prone and over overpaid and if it weren't for Gardiner and possible draft choices, last year was a total waste. I was very disapointed that TO signed McClement because I only saw him as another obstacle that our youth must surmount to get a reasonable chance to contribute to the team. In BB's world, where thou shall not admit to thine own mistakes, I'm sure come hell or high water Connolly and Lombardi would still be on the team and Kadri and Frattin would only be on the Leafs as injury replacements. Next year if BB didn't again go UFA crazy again we probably would be debating again whether or not Kadri and Frattin didn`t benefit from another year in the A.

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02-13-2013, 03:55 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobarth View Post
Yes BB had a hand in all those player acquisitions, we think. but Nonis had the Kahoonies to rid TO of Connolly and Lombardi whereas BB and Wilson were willing to live or die with those 2, they died. People talk about addition by subtraction or a team cancer and those 2 players are flag bearers for those concepts and a large part of the toxic environment we had to endure last year.
I think the counterpoint is that BB signed those guys to short term contracts to allow Frattin's and Kadri's time to develop in the AHL. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation - is it better for the player to spend time in the minors, or develop in the NHL. Tough call...
I don't think Lombardi was a cancer. Lots of positive talk about him, like "I can't say enough good things about him," (Shane Doan). Connolly is probably another story.

Quote:
In BB's world, where thou shall not admit to thine own mistakes, I'm sure come hell or high water Connolly and Lombardi would still be on the team and Kadri and Frattin would only be on the Leafs as injury replacements.
I think BB has made changes when things didn't work out. Most importantly, he didn't sell the farm to make the playoffs after his initial belief that they'd be in the playoffs in year one of his term didn't pan out. He's made transactions like Beauchemin, Armstrong buyout, Gustavsson, sending Orr to the minors and trading Versteeg that got rid of significant players he brought in. So I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have let Connolly and Lombardi go, but who knows.

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02-13-2013, 05:25 AM
  #8
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Burke should have fired Wilson for not moulding the team into what it is right now. That Orr presser last year was clearly a message to Ron. I don't know why BB didn't come out and say: "This team is soft as butter! Stop scratching all the toughness!"

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02-13-2013, 06:17 AM
  #9
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So it starts. Revisionist history. Just as Burke inherited a team, so has Nonis. Each GM will have their signature on the team for a decade. They are the culprits and the architects at the same time. Impossible to say which players would have been here if Burke was still here, only that both GM's let Carlyle pick the team, who is the one common denominator. Probably more accurate to applaud Carlyle for the changes.

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02-13-2013, 06:50 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobarth View Post
TO presently has 7 players on the team that didn't play with TO last year. I was just looking at the line-up and realized there is a significant change in personnel from last year.

New players: JVR
Komarov
Kostka
McClement
Holzer
Fraser
McLaren

That's a significant change but it doesn't stop there as there are other players that were not considered everyday players last year.

Graduate players: Kadri
Frattin

That's 9 players that were not considered part of the fabric from which TO would weave it's future. Of coarse JVR, Komarov, Kostka, McClement, Fraser, and McLaren weren't on TO last year but Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were. Some will say they needed more time to develop and that may very well be but if Kadri and Frattin had by some chance produced like they are now don't we think BB would still be pres./GM/Ambassador/etc. for the Leafs, I do. TO had a long run of success last year seemingly based on the production of 1 line with some input from the second. Defense and goaltending never amounted to much so offense was our beacon last year.

If BB and Wilson were wrong last year and Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were ready, just never given an adequate chance to show what they could do, they'd probably still be here. What's even more pathetic is we might not have to have been exposed to that crappy team last year. Oh well, at least we should have Reilly for the future and he might be that 1 player that could elevate TO from a playoff team to a perennial Stanley Cup contender.
They weren't ready and it was pretty obvious by their play.

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Old
02-13-2013, 07:20 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Carlyle had Frattin playing with the Marlies to start the season and he got into 56 games last year. I`m not sure how he wasn`t with the team last year.

Carlyle also had Holzer starting with Marlies and it`s only been 6 games.

I still say the best thing for Kadri was to spend time in the AHL and now it`s showing. Everybody talks like he was treated so unfairly but everytime he went down he came up a better player and now he looks to be am impactful player. He also played around the same amount of AHL games as Roy, Marchand and Ribeiro did who all turned out to be good NHLers.

Better a day late than a day early!
? Since when. Better late than never, I can understand. Bozak was still in school when he was Kadri's age so I couldn't say Kadri is even late.

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02-13-2013, 07:27 AM
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McLaren doesn't really count as a blow up lol.

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02-13-2013, 07:44 AM
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Giving credit for the roster make-up to Nonis is straight-up ign'ant

First off, Burke/Nonis allow the coach to make the roster, hence this team is actually blown up by Carlyle changing Wilson's roster, not Nonis changing Burke's roster.

That's with the exception of Frazer McLaren, acquired off waivers from San Jose. But adding a solid 4th line grinder isn't exactly GM of the Year worthy.

Burke acquired van Riemsdyk, Kostka, McClement and Fraser, and Komarov and Holzer were Leaf prospects developping in the system.

In fact Burke actually put some serious effort into luring Komarov back from the KHL, so even as a Leafs prospect Komarov wasn't a sure thing.

Nonis has done pretty much nothing to improve this team, and the very important thing to note here is that he hasn't had to do anything.

But it's clear that's not what people will remember...

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02-13-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Giving credit for the roster make-up to Nonis is straight-up ign'ant

First off, Burke/Nonis allow the coach to make the roster, hence this team is actually blown up by Carlyle changing Wilson's roster, not Nonis changing Burke's roster.

That's with the exception of Frazer McLaren, acquired off waivers from San Jose. But adding a solid 4th line grinder isn't exactly GM of the Year worthy.

Burke acquired van Riemsdyk, Kostka, McClement and Fraser, and Komarov and Holzer were Leaf prospects developping in the system.

In fact Burke actually put some serious effort into luring Komarov back from the KHL, so even as a Leafs prospect Komarov wasn't a sure thing.

Nonis has done pretty much nothing to improve this team, and the very important thing to note here is that he hasn't had to do anything.

But it's clear that's not what people will remember...
Patience and that is the key. Luongo would be here if Burke was incharge and who knows, Gardiner + Kadri+ Pick would be gone. Everybody said it was done just waiting for the lockout to end. Who knows what the team would look like today.

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02-13-2013, 07:53 AM
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Carlyle picked the lineup so I'd imagine it's him you should be thanking. Besides, Burke brought in or retained most of those guys you mentioned.
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Patience and that is the key. Luongo would be here if Burke was incharge and who knows, Gardiner + Kadri+ Pick would be gone. Everybody said it was done just waiting for the lockout to end. Who knows what the team would look like today.
Lol thats exactly it, nobody knows. Who's "everybody" that said the deal was done. The team likely would have looked the exact same since Carlyle is the coach and would have picked the same players...... Beyond speculation, there isn't any evidence a deal was in place and you shouldn't hold people accountable to speculative nonsense.


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02-13-2013, 08:01 AM
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delete.

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02-13-2013, 08:42 AM
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Patience and that is the key. Luongo would be here if Burke was incharge and who knows, Gardiner + Kadri+ Pick would be gone. Everybody said it was done just waiting for the lockout to end. Who knows what the team would look like today.
Yeah, that rumour is out there, but not verified. I think its true though that Burke left Nonis a reasonably solid base of developing players and cap space to work from and if Nonis stays longterm, it will be because he has had some success. And at that point, we should be grateful to Burke for having a successor to himself in place. We may never know if Nonis best move was to not to pull the trigger on the Luongo trade.

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02-13-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hobarth View Post
TO presently has 7 players on the team that didn't play with TO last year. I was just looking at the line-up and realized there is a significant change in personnel from last year.

New players: JVR
Komarov
Kostka
McClement
Holzer
Fraser
McLaren

That's a significant change but it doesn't stop there as there are other players that were not considered everyday players last year.

Graduate players: Kadri
Frattin

That's 9 players that were not considered part of the fabric from which TO would weave it's future. Of coarse JVR, Komarov, Kostka, McClement, Fraser, and McLaren weren't on TO last year but Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were. Some will say they needed more time to develop and that may very well be but if Kadri and Frattin had by some chance produced like they are now don't we think BB would still be pres./GM/Ambassador/etc. for the Leafs, I do. TO had a long run of success last year seemingly based on the production of 1 line with some input from the second. Defense and goaltending never amounted to much so offense was our beacon last year.

If BB and Wilson were wrong last year and Holzer, Kadri and Frattin were ready, just never given an adequate chance to show what they could do, they'd probably still be here. What's even more pathetic is we might not have to have been exposed to that crappy team last year. Oh well, at least we should have Reilly for the future and he might be that 1 player that could elevate TO from a playoff team to a perennial Stanley Cup contender.
Burke signed McClement. Komarov was expected to come over after he signed a deal under Burke's management. Ditto Holzner -- expected since last year. Kadri and Frattin were expected to play as well.

Kosta, Fraser are surprises, along with McLaren. So he's effectively added 3 but two of those are likely coaches choices. If Wilson was around probably none of them would be here.

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02-13-2013, 08:49 AM
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Some of you are overlooking just how much of a right hand man Nonis was to Burke during Burke's tenure here. We do know that Burke trusted Nonis to do a lot of heavy lifting on his own without much supervision from Burke. We know that Nonis has been credited with doing a lot of the groundwork in trades and we also know that he's pitched presentations on behalf of the Leafs in Burke's absence. With the credit that Burke has given Nonis over the years, it's impossible to look at Burke's tenure here and say it was all 'him'. Nonis may be the very new to the GM role in Toronto, but I think it's safe to say that his handprints are also on this team long before he officially got the GM role.

We also have to give credit to Carlyle as I imagine Nonis operates similar to Burke in the sense that he gives his coach absolute authority to determine who deserves to be in and out of the line up. I would think Carlyle had a say in where he saw the likes of Connolly and Lombardi fitting in with the current roster and system they want to work with. People are too caught up with trying to give credit to just one person. There are a lot of people that work in management and the state of the team reflects a collaborative effort, not a one man effort.

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02-13-2013, 08:53 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Patience and that is the key. Luongo would be here if Burke was incharge and who knows, Gardiner + Kadri+ Pick would be gone. Everybody said it was done just waiting for the lockout to end. Who knows what the team would look like today.
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Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
Yeah, that rumour is out there, but not verified. I think its true though that Burke left Nonis a reasonably solid base of developing players and cap space to work from and if Nonis stays longterm, it will be because he has had some success. And at that point, we should be grateful to Burke for having a successor to himself in place. We may never know if Nonis best move was to not to pull the trigger on the Luongo trade.
The actual rumor was that Burke's reluctance to move on Luongo was the final straw for MLSE, not the other way around.

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02-13-2013, 08:54 AM
  #21
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JFJ has almost as much to do with the new players as Nonis does.

Holzer and Komarov are his picks (to be fair to burke, both of them were supposed to be here at this start of this season when Burke was in charge).

Kostka and Fraser we can credit to Nonis, he was the Marlies GM afterall.

Mclaren came at the request of Carlyle.

McClement was hell bent on coming to TO. He took less money to come "home".

JvR was a Burke deal, IMO. Big American who can score? Ya, thats a Burke guy.

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02-13-2013, 08:56 AM
  #22
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I may be the biggest Burke critic imaginable... But even I think this current leaf team is almost entirely burkes creation.

I would just take the revolutionary stance that being a measly 3 points away from 11th place is a little to early to call this team a success.

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02-13-2013, 09:00 AM
  #23
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The actual rumor was that Burke's reluctance to move on Luongo was the final straw for MLSE, not the other way around.
I heard both rumors, but given that no trade was subsequently made gives more weight one way. Not that any rumors should ever really be believed

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02-13-2013, 09:02 AM
  #24
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Not sure why there seems to be a need to attribute total credit to the teams very recent successful run?

JFJ did some good and made some mistakes.
Burke did some good and made some mistakes.
Nonis has/will do some good and make some mistakes.

It looks like things are getting better, each of the men above played a role in getting the current pieces.

That being said, the current roster has mostly been put in place by Burke / Nonis and nobody on this board can say with certainty which of them had a bigger role in these acquisitions.

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02-13-2013, 09:28 AM
  #25
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McLaren doesn't really count as a blow up lol.
Exactly what I am thinking here...the only player Nonis has added since Burke left is this guy.

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