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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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Old
01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
  #376
The Mentalist
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I don't see why you don't like Grabovski. He gives a 100% effort on both ends of the ice.

You support Phil Kessel but yet you don't mind if he's floating in our zone and giving away the puck.

It takes an effort at both ends of the ice to win the game. Clearly Bozak and Kessel are just not good enough to play hockey in our zone...we lose games because not every line and not every player is committed to playing a 200 ft game to win.

Let's just say that we didn't have Grabovski right now.

Where do you put that 5.5M?

We have ZERO cap problems.

If Corey Perry and Getzlaf came to the Leafs that they want to sign with the Leafs, the Leafs will find a way to sign them both. It's not going to be hard if the player wants to come.

What's the point of cap space if there is no place to use it?

We have money but no where better to use it.
I've seen enough from this core, it will never win a championship and may never make the playoffs, pieces have to be moved so we can compete against the Rangers, Bruins, or NY Isles.

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01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Have you heard of me use the term core, now you are changing the topic.

What has this core done, have we made the playoffs yet?
No, you're dodging a legitimate question. This conversation is about cap allocation, as you've stated ad nauseum, so I asked you to name me one player that we could allocate that $5.5 million to, that would turn this team around, a burden you've placed on Grabo, saying he's overpaid for a guy who won't be able to do just that.

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Old
01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
You are talking fantasy though.

Leafs don't have to pay Chara or Bergeron, they are Bruins.

Leafs didn't pass on any players due to cap hit.

Paying Kessel 4 million won't make the team any better.
Exactly.

Let's say we reduce our team's cap hits to hit the cap floor?

Where is the 20M that is leftover going?

No where...because the Leafs are unable to attract any top UFA's.

When you can't attract any good UFA to come and play, it's best to sign your own players.

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01-27-2013, 05:16 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Grabo is a cap allocation, Dion is a cap allocation, Lupul is a cap allocation. I'm sorry if you guys don't get it.

They are not worth their salaries, compared to better teams cap allocations.

They take up space in a cap structure. Can't state it any more clearer.
You're right. Which is why we should just clear the slate of these guys (Kessel, Dion, Grabo, Liles, Komisarek, Lupul) and just race to the bottom.

The Leafs don't get good value in the standings from their spending, but cap space doesn't win you anything. Procuring the right players wins you games.

The issue isn't really about cap space because the Leafs have a good amount of it. The issue is how we can procure the Chara/Bergeron kind of player you are after.

Chara was signed as a UFA to a league max contract.

Bergeron was a 2nd round draft pick who catapulted up the Bruins depth chart into one of the premier players in the game.

Tough to find guys like them.

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01-27-2013, 05:19 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
It more so seems like Majority versus minority for you my friend.

Grabo is damn sure worth his salary, so no, no cap allocation. Dion it can be argued and I can admit he's overpaid and is not playing to his abilities. Lupul aside from his injuries he is damn sure worth it for his skill.

Cap structure is fine and it seems more and more you are just fretting over 5.5 mil which we can easily move around with other players lol.
It's a Leafs forum, so I am not surprised, but you must have missed the trade Grabo posts today so don't be so sure of that.

I'm for changing this core, where we build by draft/develop/promote.

To think somehow these same cast of characters as you guys seem to believe will suddenly become a playoff team or contender is faulty.

The Rielly's, Kadri's, are the future core players, this is the only way we will improve,
rather than be the fly trying to get out of a window, the fly that keeps hitting the glass expecting a different result from the same cast of characters.

I am happy to not be one of the flies.

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01-27-2013, 05:19 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Exactly.

Let's say we reduce our team's cap hits to hit the cap floor?

Where is the 20M that is leftover going?

No where...because the Leafs are unable to attract any top UFA's.

When you can't attract any good UFA to come and play, it's best to sign your own players.
I wouldn't say it's always best to re-sign your own players.

In many cases it isn't.

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01-27-2013, 05:19 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I've seen enough from this core, it will never win a championship and may never make the playoffs, pieces have to be moved so we can compete against the Rangers, Bruins, or NY Isles.
I agree with you on that one. I don't think this core is good enough to win a Championship. There is not much leadership on this team and as good as Dion can be, he needs help.

I think we're just a better version of the Calgary Flames. Our management is stuck in between...are we aiming for the playoffs? Are we hitting rock bottom? If so, why did we trade our first round picks when it was clear the team was terrible.

The good thing though is that this team has the ability to pick up another talented player in this draft and add to Morgan Rielly.

Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardiner, Nazem Kadri, JvR, any of the top 6 from this draft is a damn good starting point to surround the other players we have.

Kessel and Phaneuf are great players but they need to be surrounded by good players. Having Kostka, Komisarek, Fraser in the line up doesn't help the Leafs.

Ron Wilson completely destroyed this team's structure and it's going to take more than a few games of Carlyle's coaching to get them back on track.

Burke's biggest mistake (even bigger than Kessel trade) was not firing his best buddy.

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01-27-2013, 05:25 PM
  #383
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I'm going to fantasize for a bit. If the Leafs could tank this year and finish last and sell off some assets, and get a first from a team fighting for the playoffs. Then, the team which traded their first to the Leafs missed the playoffs AND won the draft lottery. The Leafs could pick 1 and 2.

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01-27-2013, 05:27 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I agree with you on that one. I don't think this core is good enough to win a Championship. There is not much leadership on this team and as good as Dion can be, he needs help.

I think we're just a better version of the Calgary Flames. Our management is stuck in between...are we aiming for the playoffs? Are we hitting rock bottom? If so, why did we trade our first round picks when it was clear the team was terrible.

The good thing though is that this team has the ability to pick up another talented player in this draft and add to Morgan Rielly.

Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardiner, Nazem Kadri, JvR, any of the top 6 from this draft is a damn good starting point to surround the other players we have.

Kessel and Phaneuf are great players but they need to be surrounded by good players. Having Kostka, Komisarek, Fraser in the line up doesn't help the Leafs.

Ron Wilson completely destroyed this team's structure and it's going to take more than a few games of Carlyle's coaching to get them back on track.

Burke's biggest mistake (even bigger than Kessel trade) was not firing his best buddy.
I got to eat dinner my man, but glad you got my point. Core has to improve, Kadri is the right way to go, in short time he will upgrade our top 6 c's, this is the way to go, draft/develop/promote. Not lose, tank, meltdown and re-sign losers part of a core that hasn't gotten it done.

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01-27-2013, 05:30 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Minnesota wilds have made the playoffs every year except hat one year due to injuries and brain fart. And you are telling me the team that hasn't made the playoffs since the previous lockout would be an ideal location for a stanley cup winner prolly looking for a good contract for his career? I mean I love the leafs and im going to watch this team till I die but that doesn't mean I blindly hope for it.

If perry comes here, I'd be ecstatic but we'd have to give him a solid reason to come here.
Are you just about done lying to try prove your point there?

2011/12 Minny 82 points, missed the POs

2010/2011 86 points, missed the POs

2009/2010 84 points, missed the POs

2008/2009 89 points, missed the POs

2005/2006 84 points, missed the POs

Obviously you have need researched what you spew out.


Last edited by ULF_55: 01-28-2013 at 06:52 AM. Reason: He's a poster in this regard, not a mod.
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01-27-2013, 05:32 PM
  #386
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I got to eat dinner my man,
That's no excuse for leaving. You definitely are going to have to start getting your priorities right

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01-27-2013, 05:36 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Are you just about done lying to try prove your point there?

2011/12 Minny 82 points, missed the POs

2010/2011 86 points, missed the POs

2009/2010 84 points, missed the POs

2008/2009 89 points, missed the POs

2005/2006 84 points, missed the POs

Obviously you have need researched what you spew out.
LOL

Even still, Suter and Parise went there for three reasons:

1. $$$$$
2. Home
3. Family

He was still absolutely correct, he just had his details off.


Last edited by ULF_55: 01-28-2013 at 06:52 AM. Reason: QE
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01-27-2013, 05:36 PM
  #388
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you're pretty much forgetting the elephant in the room. when things are not going well, Toronto is a hockey circus and not a desirable place to play in AT ALL. why would a FA put up with all the scrutiny and frustration from the fans and the media? it's the biggest hockey market, it comes with the territory.

we haven't signed ONE impact FA since the lockout pretty much and like half the nhl is from here... did you ever ask yourself why?

if we ever get back to prestige, we MAY have a chance at elite FAs

montreal is becoming the same as toronto when it comes to elite FAs. both of us are relegated to overpaying for B-level UFAs.
you'd think they'd have an advantage with elite french players, but no chance. both teams will have to return through glory with prudent drafting before FAs are even a factor..
5 year term limits might have something to do with what has happened in the past years, not pushing the limit of the CBA rules , might be another reason.

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01-27-2013, 05:38 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
5 year term limits might have something to do with what has happened in the past years, not pushing the limit of the CBA rules , might be another reason.
Isn't overpayment and cap allocation, what the last two pages of nonsense is all about in the first place?

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01-27-2013, 05:38 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
LOL

Even still, Suter and Parise went there for three reasons:

1. $$$$$
2. Home
3. Family

He was still absolutely correct, he just had his details off.
Then why hasn't Toronto been able to sign free agents?

Lots of GREAT players have come from the GTA (where they presumably have a home and family). We obviously have always had the capspace to get them signed.

But still nothing.

Could it be because of other factors too?

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01-27-2013, 05:41 PM
  #391
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Then why hasn't Toronto been able to sign free agents?

Lots of GREAT players have come from the GTA (where they presumably have a home and family). We obviously have always had the capspace to get them signed.

But still nothing.

Could it be because of other factors too?
Because they're losing.

Because the media here is a burden.

Because most people like to be able to walk down the street, and not get mobbed by anonymous people.

There are a number of reasons, most of which involve the exposure and lack of privacy and normal life that playing in this city brings.

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01-27-2013, 05:41 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
5 year term limits might have something to do with what has happened in the past years, not pushing the limit of the CBA rules , might be another reason.
things like this put us TOTALLY out of any race for UFAs. our brilliant GM liked working with one hand behind his back lmfao

now that we're on equal footing i still don't think we're competitive for UFAs before we win. it's hockey hell here right now and players are not stupid

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01-27-2013, 05:42 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
LOL

Even still, Suter and Parise went there for three reasons:

1. $$$$$
2. Home
3. Family

He was still absolutely correct, he just had his details off.
He was not absolutely correct when he said ,we need to give UFAs a reason to come here and equating winning to Minny as one of them.

The GTA is as fine and safe an area as any NHL city.

Maybe with this new GM and rules we will man up and offer the term and $ top FAs command.

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01-27-2013, 05:43 PM
  #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
LOL

Even still, Suter and Parise went there for three reasons:

1. $$$$$
2. Home
3. Family

He was still absolutely correct, he just had his details off.
Yikes I was wrong quite a bit it seems. I always forget that they are barely missing the playoffs by like 2 points or so. Damn that one hurt but as Ernie said the rest it's true. My bad!

They also have a much better core than us for sure. Koivu, Granlund, Backstrom, and so on.

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01-27-2013, 05:44 PM
  #395
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Then why hasn't Toronto been able to sign free agents?

Lots of GREAT players have come from the GTA (where they presumably have a home and family). We obviously have always had the capspace to get them signed.

But still nothing.

Could it be because of other factors too?
They have, just not post-lockout.

When was the last UFA even remotely interested in us anyway? Richards was always connected to NYR, Parise/Suter were never interested in Toronto(they aren't even canadian)

What other big name would've joined us if we were winners?

Really guys, there's maybe 1-2 big ufa's a year, with 30 teams competing for them, we've gotten lots of college and mid-level ufa's over the years, so there is an interest, but it's not like there's been 30 big ufa's to turn us down, we're probably talking 6-7.

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01-27-2013, 05:44 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
He was not absolutely correct when he said ,we need to give UFAs a reason to come here and equating winning to Minny as one of them.

The GTA is as fine and safe an area as any NHL city.

Maybe with this new GM and rules we will man up and offer the term and $ top FAs command.
If we are fine, then players wouldn't cave in under the enormous pressure that is leafnations, its been five games and we are talking about tearing this entire team apart. What if in the next 10 games we go on a torris streak and make the playoffs? Then what will all this talk turn into ?

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01-27-2013, 05:45 PM
  #397
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Made a thread from this on the main board.

This is not an overreaction thread, all I'm stating is the players we(the Leafs) rely on, are support players and should not be relied upon like they have been in Toronto, I think it's time for a proper rebuild. That being said there is a long list of guys who I think should be moved, that would be fantastic complimentary players to contenders or playoff teams.

Should be moved:

Kessel: (He's a fantastic player, he's a dynamic and elite scoring winger, extremely underrated passer and a deadly shot) That being said, he's not someone you build around, he's a piece you bring in to make room for the other offensive threats on your team.

Phaneuf: (Potential game changer, he can change the momentum from a single play, he energizes a team with his hits and slappers) There is plenty of debate on whether or not he's a #1 defencemen, in my mind he's as close as you can be without actually being one. He frequently plays with lesser partners against teams top threats, but he needs another Top pairing dman as a partner, someone to let him play his game, and bring that energy that he can.

MacArthur: (Let's get this straight, he's a tweener, he's best suited for a 3rd line who does what he's asked of, however, if an injury occurs, he wouldn't look out of place on the 2nd line) He has a bullet of a slapper and some grit to his game.

Grabovski: (Heart and soul guy, he'll give it all for the win, would be a fantastic #2C behind a Top C such as Toews) He's speedy, a great defender has a hard accurate shot.

Liles: (Top 4 PMD, this year under Carlyle, he's shown the ability to be a great defender, add that with his natural offensive instinct and you have a great PP specialist who can handle his own 5v5) He's best to be paired with Shut-down partner with a heavy shot.

Franson: (As of right now, he's a bottom pairing guy, he's got a hard accurate shot and is coming into his own with his size, there are questions about his work ethic and entitlement, however the size and ability is there) He could be had for a reasonable price and could blossom into a Top 4 dman under the right circumstances.

Throw out some offers on these players, keep it realistic and go by both team needs, the purpose of this thread is a Toronto rebuild, so offer picks, prospects or young players.

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01-27-2013, 05:45 PM
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
He was not absolutely correct when he said ,we need to give UFAs a reason to come here and equating winning to Minny as one of them.

The GTA is as fine and safe an area as any NHL city.

Maybe with this new GM and rules we will man up and offer the term and $ top FAs command.
His reasoning was absolutely correct, his example wasn't.

Parise and Suter were special cases.
One was born and raised, and played his hockey in Minnesota, and the other one was highly influenced by his wife, who is a native of the state, and has family roots there as well.

Money was #1, but really, we offered the same relative money to Richards as everyone else, just not the ridiculous structure. He wanted to play for a WINNING team that looked to contend, and that was a huge factor.

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01-27-2013, 05:45 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Because they're losing.

Because the media here is a burden.

Because most people like to be able to walk down the street, and not get mobbed by anonymous people.

There are a number of reasons, most of which involve the exposure and lack of privacy and normal life that playing in this city brings.
Probably that and also something to do with this:



Pretty sure Toronto should not be pinning all hope on free agents rescuing this current losing core.

Like others have said, the logical thing would be to just draft the star talent where our own managers can seal their own future through their own expertise, without relying on unreliable and expensive UFA's.

Knowing how bad the Leafs are, may as well race to the bottom. Start out with a bang.

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01-27-2013, 05:46 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Isn't overpayment and cap allocation, what the last two pages of nonsense is all about in the first place?
You have to pay top dollar for the top UFAs has it ever been any different in the NHL?

And i don't mean top UFAs of that years class, i mean top skilled by league comparisons.

Like a Gaborik
Richards
Parise
Suter

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