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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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01-27-2013, 05:47 PM
  #401
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
No one has said what the cap money is for.

Fantasy and fiction isn't realism.

What star player can the Leafs not sign due to a cap problem?
Perry, Getzlaf, Roy, Weiss, Horton, Clowe, Filppula, Smid, Howard, Backstrom all come to mind.

Plus whatever players become available in trades.

If the Leafs are out of it by the deadline which is looking very likely the time to trade Grabo is then. There will be little to no market for him in the off-season. After the deadline he is a declining trade asset. When an analyst like Pierre McGuire says we're asset poor he is right.

One of the ways a team can get better is by trading their good but not top building blocks for picks/prospects at their high value point and gain cap space/flexibility to use later on.

The Panthers gutted their team core (Horton, Ballard) and are now in a better place for it.

Minny traded Burns for a nice package and the following summer had the cap room to sign Suter/Parise.

Ottawa traded Fisher and now have one of the best prospect pools.

LA traded Cammi for a futures package.

In almost every trade where a player with a significant salary is traded that team is looking for picks/prospects. Toronto needs to line up more picks/prospects and cap space to get some difference makers on this team. A lot of teams will be needing to shed salary.


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 01-27-2013 at 06:59 PM.
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01-27-2013, 05:49 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Made a thread from this on the main board.

This is not an overreaction thread, all I'm stating is the players we(the Leafs) rely on, are support players and should not be relied upon like they have been in Toronto, I think it's time for a proper rebuild. That being said there is a long list of guys who I think should be moved, that would be fantastic complimentary players to contenders or playoff teams.

Should be moved:

Kessel: (He's a fantastic player, he's a dynamic and elite scoring winger, extremely underrated passer and a deadly shot) That being said, he's not someone you build around, he's a piece you bring in to make room for the other offensive threats on your team.

Phaneuf: (Potential game changer, he can change the momentum from a single play, he energizes a team with his hits and slappers) There is plenty of debate on whether or not he's a #1 defencemen, in my mind he's as close as you can be without actually being one. He frequently plays with lesser partners against teams top threats, but he needs another Top pairing dman as a partner, someone to let him play his game, and bring that energy that he can.

MacArthur: (Let's get this straight, he's a tweener, he's best suited for a 3rd line who does what he's asked of, however, if an injury occurs, he wouldn't look out of place on the 2nd line) He has a bullet of a slapper and some grit to his game.

Grabovski: (Heart and soul guy, he'll give it all for the win, would be a fantastic #2C behind a Top C such as Toews) He's speedy, a great defender has a hard accurate shot.

Liles: (Top 4 PMD, this year under Carlyle, he's shown the ability to be a great defender, add that with his natural offensive instinct and you have a great PP specialist who can handle his own 5v5) He's best to be paired with Shut-down partner with a heavy shot.

Franson: (As of right now, he's a bottom pairing guy, he's got a hard accurate shot and is coming into his own with his size, there are questions about his work ethic and entitlement, however the size and ability is there) He could be had for a reasonable price and could blossom into a Top 4 dman under the right circumstances.

Throw out some offers on these players, keep it realistic and go by both team needs, the purpose of this thread is a Toronto rebuild, so offer picks, prospects or young players.
Okay, and what do you do when you need this guy in 2-3 years.... trade away some of those prime assets you just drafted for him?

You've got Sundin situation all over again. What we need to do, is not blow the whole damn thing up. We need to remove the fluff, and upgrade. We need to upgrade on MacArthur, we need to upgrade on Bozak, we need to upgrade on Gunnar (he's fine for now).

We need upgrades, not to trade everything that isn't bolted to the floor.

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01-27-2013, 05:51 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
You have to pay top dollar for the top UFAs has it ever been any different in the NHL?

And i don't mean top UFAs of that years class, i mean top skilled by league comparisons.

Like a Gaborik
Richards
Parise
Suter
Yes, but you're just assuming that money is the only factor, and it absolutely isn't.

Bomber raised a good point as well, the big stars are signing in tax havens, in order to bank more of that money.

Either way, there's a lot more than money in play here.

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01-27-2013, 05:54 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Yes, but you're just assuming that money is the only factor, and it absolutely isn't.

Bomber raised a good point as well, the big stars are signing in tax havens, in order to bank more of that money.

Either way, there's a lot more than money in play here.
Minnesota and for sure NYC are not tax havens.

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01-27-2013, 05:54 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Okay, and what do you do when you need this guy in 2-3 years.... trade away some of those prime assets you just drafted for him?

You've got Sundin situation all over again. What we need to do, is not blow the whole damn thing up. We need to remove the fluff, and upgrade. We need to upgrade on MacArthur, we need to upgrade on Bozak, we need to upgrade on Gunnar (he's fine for now).

We need upgrades, not to trade everything that isn't bolted to the floor.
I agree, I just don't see us competing in the next 2-3 years, we won't need a player like Kessel until he's past his prime, so in my mind, by the the time we need a player of Kessel's skill set, he won't be able to provide us with what he used to be able to.

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01-27-2013, 05:55 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Yes, but you're just assuming that money is the only factor, and it absolutely isn't.

Bomber raised a good point as well, the big stars are signing in tax havens, in order to bank more of that money.

Either way, there's a lot more than money in play here.
I see the Rags down there with us and they nailed 2 big ones lately.

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01-27-2013, 05:57 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Yes, but you're just assuming that money is the only factor, and it absolutely isn't.

Bomber raised a good point as well, the big stars are signing in tax havens, in order to bank more of that money.

Either way, there's a lot more than money in play here.
When did i every say it was the only factor?

It's a HUGE factor, but not the only one.

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01-27-2013, 06:04 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
Minnesota and for sure NYC are not tax havens.
Those two examples may not be, and I didn't say that they were, specifically.
Just saying that's a factor that goes into decisions, considering most players want to bank as much of their salaries as possible.

The point I was making was that a lot more goes into deciding where you're going to play, long term, that just money.

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01-27-2013, 06:07 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Those two examples may not be, and I didn't say that they were, specifically.
Just saying that's a factor that goes into decisions, considering most players want to bank as much of their salaries as possible.

The point I was making was that a lot more goes into deciding where you're going to play, long term, that just money.
Exactly. Look at Vinny Lecavalier...you think he'll ever accept a trade to Montreal?

He's making the most money in Tampa...he'd lose millions if he were to get traded.

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01-27-2013, 06:09 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Kovalchuk is on the payroll until he's 42 years old. That's why. Do you not get that in exchange for "Retirement" contracts, the cap hit is lowered?

Who cares? Honestly. Who friggen cares. We've paid Jeff Finger and Mike Komisarek a combined $8 million one season. Think about that for a second. I think we could survive paying one of the NHL's best until he's 42, even if that means he's sitting in the press box on most nights.

Ask any fan of any team that took advantage of these cap circumventing contracts, and not one of them will have a bad thing to say.

To further my point, Sundin is 41 years old right now. Would I be losing sleep if he was still in the line up? With amnesty buyouts on the horizon? Hell no.

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01-27-2013, 06:11 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Exactly. Look at Vinny Lecavalier...you think he'll ever accept a trade to Montreal?

He's making the most money in Tampa...he'd lose millions if he were to get traded.
You have to think about endorsements as well though, maybe not for a player like Vinny but for a guy like Suter. He may get taxed more in point A than point B, but point A has a hungry hockey market and he would get a bunch more endorsement $.

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01-27-2013, 06:12 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Those two examples may not be, and I didn't say that they were, specifically.
Just saying that's a factor that goes into decisions, considering most players want to bank as much of their salaries as possible.

The point I was making was that a lot more goes into deciding where you're going to play, long term, that just money.
I agree with you. The Gaborik,Richards,Parise,Suter examples that were in the quote just stuck out. However if the Leafs were ever any good (massive if) the chance of making big endorsement money to supplement their salary is probably one of the highest here in Toronto.

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01-27-2013, 06:15 PM
  #413
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You have to think about endorsements as well though, maybe not for a player like Vinny but for a guy like Suter. He may get taxed more in point A than point B, but point A has a hungry hockey market and he would get a bunch more endorsement $.
I'm not even sure that matters anymore. Stamkos was endorsing a lot of stuff in and around Toronto during the lock out.

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01-27-2013, 06:18 PM
  #414
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I'm not even sure that matters anymore. Stamkos was endorsing a lot of stuff in and around Toronto during the lock out.
He might be the ONLY true leaf fan boy that'll come home but I am still not holding any breaths. Last time we saw a superstar leaf boy come here was Lindros but even then he was a shell, the other recently was Mclemment.

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01-27-2013, 06:20 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
He might be the ONLY true leaf fan boy that'll come home but I am still not holding any breaths. Last time we saw a superstar leaf boy come here was Lindros but even then he was a shell, the other recently was Mclemment.
Stamkos does seem like a bit of a Lindros style Leafs fan, and if he comes in whenever it is, it might just bring this franchise back to life. What a story that would be...

The way Subban was hanging around town makes me think he's that kind of guy too, but obviously it wouldn't make sense to break the bank to get him in a trade.

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01-27-2013, 06:24 PM
  #416
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Stamkos does seem like a bit of a Lindros style Leafs fan, and if he comes in whenever it is, it might just bring this franchise back to life. What a story that would be...

The way Subban was hanging around town makes me think he's that kind of guy too, but obviously it wouldn't make sense to break the bank to get him in a trade.
subban is a montreal fan. He just hangs around here because this is where he grew up.

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01-27-2013, 06:25 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
Who cares? Honestly. Who friggen cares. We've paid Jeff Finger and Mike Komisarek a combined $8 million one season. Think about that for a second. I think we could survive paying one of the NHL's best until he's 42, even if that means he's sitting in the press box on most nights.

Ask any fan of any team that took advantage of these cap circumventing contracts, and not one of them will have a bad thing to say.

To further my point, Sundin is 41 years old right now. Would I be losing sleep if he was still in the line up? With amnesty buyouts on the horizon? Hell no.
The cap circumvention was never, ever an issue, it was only made into a big deal because Burke probably has political ties to the Bettman office. If anything, teams like the Leafs should have been using those strategies to get UFAs in place.

Imagine how much more successful Burke would have been if he had offered the Sedin twins $12 million apiece for 5 years and then $1 million annual salaries for the next five seasons back in 2009.

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01-27-2013, 06:27 PM
  #418
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subban is a montreal fan. He just hangs around here because this is where he grew up.
Plus he seems a natural to be on TSN or Sportsnet rather than RDS when he finally hangs them up.

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01-27-2013, 06:31 PM
  #419
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He might be the ONLY true leaf fan boy that'll come home but I am still not holding any breaths. Last time we saw a superstar leaf boy come here was Lindros but even then he was a shell, the other recently was Mclemment.
Meh, I doubt it. Same as JT was going to come here. Pipe dream.

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01-27-2013, 06:36 PM
  #420
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The one guy who I genuinely believed would have come here was Jeremy Roenick. I heard him on Jim Rome years ago (so to a U.S. centric audience) who said his dream would have been to play in Toronto where the whole city lived for hockey. I think a guy like that knew whether we were real fans.

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01-27-2013, 06:36 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Made a thread from this on the main board.

This is not an overreaction thread, all I'm stating is the players we(the Leafs) rely on, are support players and should not be relied upon like they have been in Toronto, I think it's time for a proper rebuild. That being said there is a long list of guys who I think should be moved, that would be fantastic complimentary players to contenders or playoff teams.

Should be moved:

Kessel: (He's a fantastic player, he's a dynamic and elite scoring winger, extremely underrated passer and a deadly shot) That being said, he's not someone you build around, he's a piece you bring in to make room for the other offensive threats on your team.

Phaneuf: (Potential game changer, he can change the momentum from a single play, he energizes a team with his hits and slappers) There is plenty of debate on whether or not he's a #1 defencemen, in my mind he's as close as you can be without actually being one. He frequently plays with lesser partners against teams top threats, but he needs another Top pairing dman as a partner, someone to let him play his game, and bring that energy that he can.

MacArthur: (Let's get this straight, he's a tweener, he's best suited for a 3rd line who does what he's asked of, however, if an injury occurs, he wouldn't look out of place on the 2nd line) He has a bullet of a slapper and some grit to his game.

Grabovski: (Heart and soul guy, he'll give it all for the win, would be a fantastic #2C behind a Top C such as Toews) He's speedy, a great defender has a hard accurate shot.

Liles: (Top 4 PMD, this year under Carlyle, he's shown the ability to be a great defender, add that with his natural offensive instinct and you have a great PP specialist who can handle his own 5v5) He's best to be paired with Shut-down partner with a heavy shot.

Franson: (As of right now, he's a bottom pairing guy, he's got a hard accurate shot and is coming into his own with his size, there are questions about his work ethic and entitlement, however the size and ability is there) He could be had for a reasonable price and could blossom into a Top 4 dman under the right circumstances.

Throw out some offers on these players, keep it realistic and go by both team needs, the purpose of this thread is a Toronto rebuild, so offer picks, prospects or young players.
I agree on this, again this team is a collection of players rather than a team with the right players. Time is to move significant pieces at the deadline, not the Franson's or Mac's but the Kessel's and Grabo's too, if there is a deal that can help us rebuild better than the first Burke flawed rebuild.

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01-27-2013, 06:38 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Okay, and what do you do when you need this guy in 2-3 years.... trade away some of those prime assets you just drafted for him?

You've got Sundin situation all over again. What we need to do, is not blow the whole damn thing up. We need to remove the fluff, and upgrade. We need to upgrade on MacArthur, we need to upgrade on Bozak, we need to upgrade on Gunnar (he's fine for now).

We need upgrades, not to trade everything that isn't bolted to the floor.
You need to move significant assets to get significant assets, moving Macarthur gets you a second round pick. That's not going to rebuild this team. Standing pat rarely is. No on is interested in another team's bit players, you have to give up assets to get assets to entice GM's to trade with you.

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01-27-2013, 06:40 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
The one guy who I genuinely believed would have come here was Jeremy Roenick. I heard him on Jim Rome years ago (so to a U.S. centric audience) who said his dream would have been to play in Toronto where the whole city lived for hockey. I think a guy like that knew whether we were real fans.
Jeremy Roenick will always and forever be dead to me.

For the new fans among us:



Last edited by Jerkini: 01-27-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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01-27-2013, 06:42 PM
  #424
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That's no excuse for leaving. You definitely are going to have to start getting your priorities right
I'm still eating, but back for a 2nd rd.

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01-27-2013, 06:53 PM
  #425
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The bottom line is this, we have the same core of players that hasn't gotten this team anywhere, yet Grabo is rewarded with a 5.5 5 year contract that may or may not be movable. Moving him for Luongo at the deadline or summer after we unintentionally tank for Jones hopefully is one creative way of allocating cap resources better. #1G all star for #2 overpaid C is a good trade off to me.


Dion and Kessel, 2 guys that will be UFA's if not re-signed after 13-14 is another option to move each to teams that are farther advanced and a better fit this year.

Lupul is signed, would have rather we haven't. But 5.25M at some point should be movable.

The point is we have a good farm system, good prospects, maintain the draft/develop/promote philosophy.

Maybe we get lucky and sign a Chara and Thomas as Boston did to expedite the rebuild. But they also drafted well and developed key players to the Cup winning team.

This is the approach we should look at, not reinvent the wheel.

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