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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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Old
01-30-2013, 09:23 AM
  #601
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Probably would have looked better for Dave Morrison if he had pushed for Claude Giroux instead of Jiri Tlusty. Bryan Little isn't even that amazing of a player, he scored 6 more points than Tlusty last year.
No one had Giroux pegged as the star player he became. Not even the Flyers, who wanted and were salivating to get Trevor Lewis at the time.

Giroux is a player who was under the radar, exceeded expectations, developed in the right situation, and now looks great.

Drafts are never defined as easily as 1-2-3-4-5. Players fail to meet expectations. Some guys exceed them.

Heck, there are sometimes Superstars who are 7th round draft picks.

Success in the NHL is about many things. Luck, being in the right situation, and progressing properly at the right time.

Some guys do it, some guys don't.

Tlusty was a bust pick. Guy was rushed. Had too much pressure in Toronto to succeed with lousy line-mates. And then there was his pictures problem, which didn't help him any.

Little is ok...but you have to remember he lost Kovaluchuk as his compliment, and Kane is their #1 guy now, not Little.

Little would/could still be useful as a Leaf, in the lineup, given what they currently have playing Center.

And yes, I'd rather have Little as our #1 Center over Bozak.


Last edited by Pierre Gotye: 01-30-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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01-30-2013, 09:27 AM
  #602
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I dont think he is either. But I do think at the top of the draft we'd be okay. Recently the high end of the draft we've been okay, I like Rielly and Kadri. Its the 10-60 spots that I am worried. Those picks later on in the 1st and second, like Kenny Ryan, Tyler Biggs, Brad Ross, Stuart Percy were all "meh" picks in recent year. It seems like they just picked up guys that can be depth (4-5 pairing d, or 2-3 line forwards) and don't have shots at being stars.

I am really hating that we moved up to get Biggs over ending up with say, Percy, Jenner and Saad.
You do know we owned the draft slot Saad was picked in?

Yup that draft slot was sent to CHI, why? ohhh so we could get our 2nd back and threaten Boston with an offer sheet on who?, yup, you got it Phill the thrill Kessel.

You see how bad the karma is around the PK trade.

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01-30-2013, 09:28 AM
  #603
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I have to tell you this tandem has me worried a little bit.

This very well could be the Ray Whitney, Pat Falloon thing all over again.
You know Scott Howson gets a lot of grief, but he will have 3 picks in the first rd this year, this is a DEEP draft, I can see players drafted late in the rd having as much impact up top. Closest draft to 2003 in memory. 10 years later. Want to add more picks, but will teams deal them?

On a side note, Lupul will not play 40 games this year, 4th rd pick reverts to a 6th rd pick.

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01-30-2013, 09:32 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You know Scott Howson gets a lot of grief, but he will have 3 picks in the first rd this year, this is a DEEP draft, I can see players drafted late in the rd having as much impact up top. Closest draft to 2003 in memory. 10 years later. Want to add more picks, but will teams deal them?

On a side note, Lupul will not play 40 games this year, 4th rd pick reverts to a 6th rd pick.

Intriguing for them now. But having to re-sign 3 guys all drafted as 1st rounders in the same year, in a small market like Columbus could create future problems for Howsitgoing.

Hopefully he invests wisely. Columbus needs help everywhere.

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01-30-2013, 09:47 AM
  #605
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Things to consider:

1. Phil Kessel has a contract which is expiring at the end of the 2013-2014 season, making him an UFA. He has a contract right now at $5.4M per year. Consider what he's going to want for a contract. $7M? $8M? I just get the feeling that we're going to have to pay extra to keep him here. Though honestly, I think that if we have Tyler Bozak here, we oddly have a huge chip in our favour. Kessel is an awkward guy, and I don't think he makes friends easily. He's one of the few players in the league that I think something like this would really matter for.

2. Bozak is a UFA at the end of this year. I think he should get locked up soon, regardless of whether or not we tank/rebuild. If we are going to target a potential 1st line center in this next draft, then Bozak is a great candidate to temporarily hold that spot down until our guy develops. He's at $1.5M per year right now. I think that we could sign him for something in the range of 3.0-3.5 for 3-5 years. Again, a big bargaining chip if we want to try and convince Kessel to re-sign.

3. Dion Phaneuf expires and is a UFA at the same time as Kessel. I think his case is different that Kessel's. While Kessel is going to push for max cash and term, I think we could get Phaneuf at a slight discount. If we could get him for $7M per, and I think that would be good for us, and for him. I think he might have trouble getting more than that on the open market. He's our captain, and like all captains I think you get the benefit of his sense of obligation for the team.

4. We have Grabovski locked up until 2018. We have one of the best (imo at least) 2nd line centers in the league. That's a stanley cup championship quality 2nd line center.

5. We have JVR also locked up until 2019. I think he'll eventually develop into a 1st line LW. We also have Lupul locked up for that same term. When healthy, he's a top 20 1st line winger. Can play both LW and RW.

My idea:

1. Trade Kessel. I'm not saying this because I undervalue how great he is. I think he's one of the best wingers in the game. I also think that if you can team him to go into the corners, get a little bit physical, etc he would arguably be in the top 3. However, I don't think he can do it. If you can trade Kessel for something like ROR + a 1st, then I think Nonis should do it. The risk of having Kessel walk at the end of next season terrifies me. Having him walk would put that trade with Boston into a whole new level of terrible.

2. Tank this season. McKinnon, Jones, Barkov and Drouin are all potential franchise players. Building our team around Kessel and Phaneuf hasn't worked. We are trying to build a team around 2 players. That really is a stretch. It worked in Pittsburgh because they are the two best players in the game. Even they have MAF and Letang. Think about building a team around: McKinnon, Rielly, Gardiner, Phaneuf. That's 4 quality players.

3. Go hard after one of the upcoming UFA goalies. I don't want Mike Smith, because he's a product of Dave Tippet. We have: Backstrom, Howard, Theodore this year. And in 2014, we have Lundqvist, Miller, Kipper, Hiller, Halak, Dubnyk. I would be surprised if we couldn't acquire ONE UFA goalie over the next two offseasons. And we do have the extra year window because we wouldn't be expecting to be a contender for 3-4 years.

We could have something like this in 2-3 years:

Lupul - McKinnon - JVR
xxxxx - Grabovski - xxxxx
Frattin? - Kadri - Biggs?
Ross? - xxxxxxxxx - Broll?

Phaneuf - Rielly
Gardiner - Finn?
Percy? - xxxxxxxx

UFA Goalie
Reimer

The xxxxx's could easily be filled via Free Agency.
7m per for Dion??? ARE YOU NUTSSS??????

Dion will be lucky to nail down 5.5m-5.75m per.

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01-30-2013, 09:52 AM
  #606
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Yeah If the Flyers thought Giroux would be a star, they would have known his name when they were on the clock to draft him.

Bob Clarke forgot the guy they were drafting, he had to ask someone

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01-30-2013, 09:54 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
7m per for Dion??? ARE YOU NUTSSS??????

Dion will be lucky to nail down 5.5m-5.75m per.
Leafs have created a huge problem like the Oilers did.

They Oilers gave Taylor Hall a 6M cap hit contract...after he scored a high of 53 points.

We've given Grabovski 5.5M.

You really think Dion Phaneuf will take 5.5M from the Leafs if they are giving Grabo 5.5M?

The Flyers are so desperate for a good D that can play in all situations that they would easily got 6.5-7M for Phaneuf.

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01-30-2013, 09:55 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You know Scott Howson gets a lot of grief, but he will have 3 picks in the first rd this year, this is a DEEP draft, I can see players drafted late in the rd having as much impact up top. Closest draft to 2003 in memory. 10 years later. Want to add more picks, but will teams deal them?

On a side note, Lupul will not play 40 games this year, 4th rd pick reverts to a 6th rd pick.
I would imagine that there would have been stipulations in the conditional pick for games played in advent of a shortened season, no? No one saw the lock out coming?

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01-30-2013, 09:58 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Leafs have created a huge problem like the Oilers did.

They Oilers gave Taylor Hall a 6M cap hit contract...after he scored a high of 53 points.

We've given Grabovski 5.5M.

You really think Dion Phaneuf will take 5.5M from the Leafs if they are giving Grabo 5.5M?

The Flyers are so desperate for a good D that can play in all situations that they would easily got 6.5-7M for Phaneuf.
Now you have changed the debate from "what TO would offer', to "what Dion would take'.

Anything more then a 5.5m demand and i say TO deals hims for futures.

Actually the leafs have defused that Grabo 5.5m issue, the man handing out those horrid contracts is gone.

New regime, new rules, new value system.

New lower cap = lower % allocation per player and slotting.

Did Sundin not make close to 10m per at one time as a leaf?, times change.

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01-30-2013, 10:04 AM
  #610
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Intriguing for them now. But having to re-sign 3 guys all drafted as 1st rounders in the same year, in a small market like Columbus could create future problems for Howsitgoing.

Hopefully he invests wisely. Columbus needs help everywhere.
Problems?

How so?

IF they develop into players that demand top bucks, that means they are stars, how can that EVER be a problem?

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01-31-2013, 10:22 PM
  #611
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Natural selection takes a hit tonight, but the positive is Leafs players upping their trade value when they play well and win.

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02-03-2013, 12:47 AM
  #612
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Made a thread from this on the main board.

This is not an overreaction thread, all I'm stating is the players we(the Leafs) rely on, are support players and should not be relied upon like they have been in Toronto, I think it's time for a proper rebuild. That being said there is a long list of guys who I think should be moved, that would be fantastic complimentary players to contenders or playoff teams.

Should be moved:

Kessel: (He's a fantastic player, he's a dynamic and elite scoring winger, extremely underrated passer and a deadly shot) That being said, he's not someone you build around, he's a piece you bring in to make room for the other offensive threats on your team.

Phaneuf: (Potential game changer, he can change the momentum from a single play, he energizes a team with his hits and slappers) There is plenty of debate on whether or not he's a #1 defencemen, in my mind he's as close as you can be without actually being one. He frequently plays with lesser partners against teams top threats, but he needs another Top pairing dman as a partner, someone to let him play his game, and bring that energy that he can.

MacArthur: (Let's get this straight, he's a tweener, he's best suited for a 3rd line who does what he's asked of, however, if an injury occurs, he wouldn't look out of place on the 2nd line) He has a bullet of a slapper and some grit to his game.

Grabovski: (Heart and soul guy, he'll give it all for the win, would be a fantastic #2C behind a Top C such as Toews) He's speedy, a great defender has a hard accurate shot.

Liles: (Top 4 PMD, this year under Carlyle, he's shown the ability to be a great defender, add that with his natural offensive instinct and you have a great PP specialist who can handle his own 5v5) He's best to be paired with Shut-down partner with a heavy shot.

Franson: (As of right now, he's a bottom pairing guy, he's got a hard accurate shot and is coming into his own with his size, there are questions about his work ethic and entitlement, however the size and ability is there) He could be had for a reasonable price and could blossom into a Top 4 dman under the right circumstances.

Throw out some offers on these players, keep it realistic and go by both team needs, the purpose of this thread is a Toronto rebuild, so offer picks, prospects or young players.
Worth repeating.

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02-03-2013, 12:48 AM
  #613
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Cite Boston model from earlier in the thread:

Quote:
That's the model Boston partially used, they first drafted very well with a bevy of 2nd rd picks. Ie Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand and a first rd pick Kessel.

2/ The developed their prospects
3/They promoted them when ready
4/Made strategic moves by letting go players that didn't fit the team's vision and got assets. Ie. Kessel, Thornton, Stuart, Murray
5/Instead they signed players that did fit their vision,by allocating cap resources to them. Ie. Lucic
6/The kicker here was they signed Chara, Savard, and Thomas as UFA's
7/Retooled with trades that added to their stanley cup winning line up. Ie. Seidenburg, Horton.

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02-03-2013, 09:24 AM
  #614
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Why am I not shocked to see this thread near the top today? All the usual suspects back?

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02-03-2013, 09:58 AM
  #615
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Leaf fans are so bi-polar

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02-03-2013, 12:45 PM
  #616
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It would help to see when this post was started. !

Some of us have been preaching this message long before the bandwagon of win one, lose one crowd infiltrates this message board.

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02-03-2013, 12:53 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
It would help to see when this post was started. !

Some of us have been preaching this message long before the bandwagon of win one, lose one crowd infiltrates this message board.
Yes but for the past week it was near the bottom of the boards. One loss and suddenly it's one if the more popular threads again.

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02-03-2013, 12:59 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Yes but for the past week it was near the bottom of the boards. One loss and suddenly it's one if the more popular threads again.
We win tomorrow I will be preaching the same thing, use a model that has worked as in Boston.

Draft/Develop/Promote
Move pieces to rebuild correctly
Make smart signings

It can be done, our farm team is helping us re-stock the shelves.

The win one all is well mirage is just that a mirage, the current team is no closer to winning a championship than last year, or the year before.

Build it correctly, not the half azzed way Burkie did.

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02-03-2013, 01:03 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
We win tomorrow I will be preaching the same thing, use a model that has worked as in Boston.

Draft/Develop/Promote
Move pieces to rebuild correctly
Make smart signings

It can be done, our farm team is helping us re-stock the shelves.

The win one all is well mirage is just that a mirage, the current team is no closer to winning a championship than last year, or the year before.

Build it correctly, not the half azzed way Burkie did.
Congrats, and some will always do so. Doesn't change the fact that when this team wins this thread conveniently drops down the list, while when they lose it is suddenly near the top, which was my point.

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02-03-2013, 01:05 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
We win tomorrow I will be preaching the same thing, use a model that has worked as in Boston.

Draft/Develop/Promote
Move pieces to rebuild correctly
Make smart signings

It can be done, our farm team is helping us re-stock the shelves.

The win one all is well mirage is just that a mirage, the current team is no closer to winning a championship than last year, or the year before.

Build it correctly, not the half azzed way Burkie did.
Couldn't agree more.

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02-03-2013, 01:08 PM
  #621
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I'm gonna have to agree with Interactif here. It's time we try what you are calling the "boston" model, we've certainly tried the "trading away valuable picks/prospects for a quick fix" model for a number of years.

To be honest it seems like each Leafs GM is trying to make the next Doug Gilmour trade, but the level of success/fleecing that Fletcher pulled off there is extremely rare.

I just want to see management show a reasonable amount of patience.

1. We stay the course with the group we have for this year, if we can hang on to 8th place and get some playoff experience for guys like Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, etc then great but if not, whatever it's not the end of the world.

2. Move guys who are not part of the plan going forward for whatever reason for picks at the trade deadline.

3. Be extremely active/aggressive during free agency this summer. We have cap space, the new CBA is in place, and there should be a few gems available. Now I know a lot of guys get locked up, but there's always a few top level players that do make it to FA. I'd like to see us snag the top 2-3 FAs like what Minny did with Parise/Suter.

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02-03-2013, 01:10 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by NigelTufnel View Post
I'm gonna have to agree with Interactif here. It's time we try what you are calling the "boston" model, we've certainly tried the "trading away valuable picks/prospects for a quick fix" model for a number of years.

To be honest it seems like each Leafs GM is trying to make the next Doug Gilmour trade, but the level of success/fleecing that Fletcher pulled off there is extremely rare.

I just want to see management show a reasonable amount of patience.

1. We stay the course with the group we have for this year, if we can hang on to 8th place and get some playoff experience for guys like Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, etc then great but if not, whatever it's not the end of the world.

2. Move guys who are not part of the plan going forward for whatever reason for picks at the trade deadline.

3. Be extremely active/aggressive during free agency this summer. We have cap space, the new CBA is in place, and there should be a few gems available. Now I know a lot of guys get locked up, but there's always a few top level players that do make it to FA. I'd like to see us snag the top 2-3 FAs like what Minny did with Parise/Suter.
I agree with stay the course but have no interest in seeing any of those crazy contracts here. Thank god you CAN'T do that anymore.

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02-03-2013, 01:13 PM
  #623
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I agree with stay the course but have no interest in seeing any of those crazy contracts here. Thank god you CAN'T do that anymore.
Exactly. Which is why this summer is the time to spend some money. There was no way Burke was gonna go after the big fish last year, what with the CBA about to expire and his oft stated stance on those type of contracts.

I'm tired of settling for the Colby Armstrongs and Tim Conollys of free agency.

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02-03-2013, 01:16 PM
  #624
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Exactly. Which is why this summer is the time to spend some money. There was no way Burke was gonna go after the big fish last year, what with the CBA about to expire and his oft stated stance on those type of contracts.

I'm tired of settling for the Colby Armstrongs and Tim Conollys of free agency.
No kidding. If Getz and or Perry hit the mArket, you go all in. That would ensure Kessel stays put

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02-03-2013, 01:18 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by NigelTufnel View Post
I'm gonna have to agree with Interactif here. It's time we try what you are calling the "boston" model, we've certainly tried the "trading away valuable picks/prospects for a quick fix" model for a number of years.

To be honest it seems like each Leafs GM is trying to make the next Doug Gilmour trade, but the level of success/fleecing that Fletcher pulled off there is extremely rare.

I just want to see management show a reasonable amount of patience.

1. We stay the course with the group we have for this year, if we can hang on to 8th place and get some playoff experience for guys like Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, etc then great but if not, whatever it's not the end of the world.

2. Move guys who are not part of the plan going forward for whatever reason for picks at the trade deadline.

3. Be extremely active/aggressive during free agency this summer. We have cap space, the new CBA is in place, and there should be a few gems available. Now I know a lot of guys get locked up, but there's always a few top level players that do make it to FA. I'd like to see us snag the top 2-3 FAs like what Minny did with Parise/Suter.
Good post! It's funny some of the Marlies we promote play better than guys we had on the roster last year. Connolly, Lombardi, Schenn, ect...

We need to keep drafting and developing, no quick fixes, if we are lucky maybe we can get a Chara UFA to sign with us by clearing the deck as Boston did with Thornton, Kessel, Murray, Raycroft, ect...

Strategic transformation they call it in Organizations, Apple did it years ago, and they reap the rewards. Tough decisions have to be made by the deadline, sell or more of the same? I say sell and less of what we have seen the past 5+ years.

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Couldn't agree more.
Yep, some of us are getting it, enough of a half azzed rebuild, build it right and Leafs fans will be happy.

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