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Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX

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Old
01-26-2013, 12:55 AM
  #51
awfulwaffle
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
If the 31st passes and Glendale doesn't extend or approve any new deal or $$$. I.e 'not the NHL's cash register' IMO a playoff run would not delay a decision if the league knows moving is the only option. The announcement may be delayed.

So we'll see how the next 6 days play out and see if the taps are shut off or keep flowing to have this saga truly become the never ending story.
In all fairness, as a fan of this team that tries to go to games when I can, I would much rather know before the playoff run(if we have one) is over, than after. I want to know that a home game in front of me could be their last if they don't win the games needed in said playoffs. I would want to lose my voice cheering for them that night, as well as shed some tears as I walk away from the arena. I may know it will already without the league announcement, but I wouldn't mind a formal announcement before the Coyotes are done playing for the season(and for good in Arizona).

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01-26-2013, 02:41 AM
  #52
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not exactly, the CBA/lockout got in the way of that, just as it did when the Coyote saga began when they emerged from BK Court....
Beyond the CBA I believe the big sticking point was coming to an agreement with Glendale as represented by Beasley who promptly retired after reaching the agreement. It appears that the issue with the May agreement was not that GJ could not close it, but that Skeete took it off the table as soon as he became acting City Manager.

The renegotiation of the lease mere weeks after it was initially agreed upon would not have had a positive effect on any investor group that might have been in place at the time. It may well be that Bettman honestly believed during last year's playoffs that the deal would close in "weeks not months" but that CoG pulled the agreement. Really, why would he say that if he did not believe it to be true? Since the AMF would be the most significant asset of the franchise and largely drive the financial results, having the CoG monkey with it could so shortly after reaching it would give any investor pause.

If the above is true - and both GJ and Skeeter have as much as said that is what happened - the NHL would likely be pissed at CoG.

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01-26-2013, 03:23 AM
  #53
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Beyond the CBA I believe the big sticking point was coming to an agreement with Glendale as represented by Beasley who promptly retired after reaching the agreement. It appears that the issue with the May agreement was not that GJ could not close it, but that Skeete took it off the table as soon as he became acting City Manager.

The renegotiation of the lease mere weeks after it was initially agreed upon would not have had a positive effect on any investor group that might have been in place at the time. It may well be that Bettman honestly believed during last year's playoffs that the deal would close in "weeks not months" but that CoG pulled the agreement. Really, why would he say that if he did not believe it to be true? Since the AMF would be the most significant asset of the franchise and largely drive the financial results, having the CoG monkey with it could so shortly after reaching it would give any investor pause.

If the above is true - and both GJ and Skeeter have as much as said that is what happened - the NHL would likely be pissed at CoG.
That maybe the excuse that the NHL or Jamison will use. "Don't blame us we had a deal in May you reneged on it and spooked out some of our investors!"

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01-26-2013, 06:17 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
In all fairness, as a fan of this team that tries to go to games when I can, I would much rather know before the playoff run(if we have one) is over, than after. I want to know that a home game in front of me could be their last if they don't win the games needed in said playoffs. I would want to lose my voice cheering for them that night, as well as shed some tears as I walk away from the arena. I may know it will already without the league announcement, but I wouldn't mind a formal announcement before the Coyotes are done playing for the season(and for good in Arizona).
I have to say that a post like this puts this whole mess into perspective for me. No matter how much this is debated in the abstract it is always good to remember that for many this is a heart and soul affair. Unfortunately, it is possible that in the end there simply may not be enough of you who feel this way.

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01-26-2013, 07:02 AM
  #55
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01-26-2013, 07:07 AM
  #56
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Unfortunately, it is possible that in the end there simply may not be enough of you who feel this way.
Why would you or anyone expect there to be enough? Look at the history of the franchise in the valley. The most successful years took place under league stewardship. Dave Tippett and Don Maloney have managed to rig together a competent roster, with less money, more restrictions and no owner. That should clue you in as to how incompetent and disinterested past owners have been. At one point they were paying Gretzky, a terrible coach with zero experience, 6-7 million a season to 'coach' this team. They thought that was a wonderful idea.

They first came to AWA, where they couldn't ever make money due to the arrangement. The team fell off the face of the earth from 02-09. You just can't do that in a four+ sport market. Not when you are supposed to be a brand new, exciting product. Not when you have zero history. You can't ice embarrassing, soul-sucking teams, and have zero direction from management. There are tons of hockey fans in the valley. But the Coyotes are not their team, and have never given them a reason to switch. Look at how well the Hawks and Red Wings draw, for example. You can't build an arena in a suburb, ice a **** product and expect people to throw money at you. I was born in Detroit and grew up on the Avs-Wings rivalry. Hockey is my first sport. But I can understand how people here never came to love hockey. What was put on the ice was shameful. It didn't help that the Suns, Cardinals and Diamondbacks all experienced success while the Coyotes were vying for top 10 picks every year with no hope of improving.

People will say this is an indictment on Phoenix as a hockey market. It really isn't. It's just a blueprint of exactly what not to do when expanding into a new market. I'd be more furious, on a personal level, but I know QC will be a great market. If any of the cities slated to get a team are going to take them, that's who I want. I'm sure QC appreciates inheriting a pretty damn good team. Guess I should start learning french.

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01-26-2013, 07:15 AM
  #57
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Why would you or anyone expect there to be enough? Look at the history of the franchise in the valley. The most successful years took place under league stewardship. Dave Tippett and Don Maloney have managed to rig together a competent roster, with less money, more restrictions and no owner. That should clue you in as to how incompetent and disinterested past owners have been. At one point they were paying Gretzky, a terrible coach with zero experience, 6-7 million a season to 'coach' this team. They thought that was a wonderful idea.

They first came to AWA, where they couldn't ever make money due to the arrangement. The team fell off the face of the earth from 02-09. You just can't do that in a four+ sport market. Not when you are supposed to be a brand new, exciting product. Not when you have zero history. You can't ice embarrassing, soul-sucking teams, and have zero direction from management. There are tons of hockey fans in the valley. But the Coyotes are not their team, and have never given them a reason to switch. Look at how well the Hawks and Red Wings draw, for example. You can't build an arena in a suburb, ice a **** product and expect people to throw money at you. I was born in Detroit and grew up on the Avs-Wings rivalry. Hockey is my first sport. But I can understand how people here never came to love hockey. What was put on the ice was shameful. It didn't help that the Suns, Cardinals and Diamondbacks all experienced success while the Coyotes were vying for top 10 picks every year with no hope of improving.

People will say this is an indictment on Phoenix as a hockey market. It really isn't. It's just a blueprint of exactly what not to do when expanding into a new market. I'd be more furious, on a personal level, but I know QC will be a great market. If any of the cities slated to get a team are going to take them, that's who I want. I'm sure QC appreciates inheriting a pretty damn good team. Guess I should start learning french.
The new team in Quebec City will hope to get goods fan like you. You are more then welcome to our fanbase, and any Coyotes fans on these boards, if indeed we do get such a team. Thinking about it, we do have a Coyotes invasion occuring right now in the province, so that name would actually make sense for our new team!! .....it could be called Les Coyotes Nordiques!!!

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01-26-2013, 08:11 AM
  #58
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Seriously guys, the team hasn't moved yet.

I feel a bit bad reading from Quebec fans renaming the team and Coyotes fans giving up on them.

How about we wait at least 5 days before writing the epitaph??

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01-26-2013, 08:23 AM
  #59
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Bettman must be pissed he is caught holding the bag for all the losses so far this season

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01-26-2013, 08:29 AM
  #60
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I dont think Bettman think that way. But the coyotes fans suffered enough already this is so f up!! I wish the NHL does it in a way that will show respect to you if the team ever move.



QUOTE=awfulwaffle;58368651]In all fairness, as a fan of this team that tries to go to games when I can, I would much rather know before the playoff run(if we have one) is over, than after. I want to know that a home game in front of me could be their last if they don't win the games needed in said playoffs. I would want to lose my voice cheering for them that night, as well as shed some tears as I walk away from the arena. I may know it will already without the league announcement, but I wouldn't mind a formal announcement before the Coyotes are done playing for the season(and for good in Arizona).[/QUOTE]

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01-26-2013, 10:04 AM
  #61
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Seriously guys, the team hasn't moved yet.

I feel a bit bad reading from Quebec fans renaming the team and Coyotes fans giving up on them.

How about we wait at least 5 days before writing the epitaph??

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01-26-2013, 10:23 AM
  #62
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No it hasn't but at the same time, it doesn't look good. if GJ has everything in place, just sign the deal and have Don Maloney start negotiating with Mike Smith's agent immediately.

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01-26-2013, 10:31 AM
  #63
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I dont think Bettman think that way. But the coyotes fans suffered enough already this is so f up!! I wish the NHL does it in a way that will show respect to you if the team ever move.
One can only hope in such a situation. I rather doubt however that the NHL does signal its intentions until the Coyotes seasons done. The optics in essentially turning the final games into a Wake would not be flattering to the league in any way whatsoever. Imagine the pictures appearing in newscasts & papers, flooding the web, chat boards like this one during & after that event. Epic Failure in the Desert. No one but themselves to blame for it. A city of barely 250,000 souls having pulled out all the stops to try & retain their franchise. Stuck with $500M in debt servicing charges having built one of the finest rinks in North America. Out of pocket $50M in bogus Arena Management Fee's over a mere 24 months that were never supposed to have been paid with absolutely nothing to show for it. Tens of millions more expended on internal & outside legal council, consultants & city personnel's time. All of the promises and covenants made by would-be owners & the NHL in shreds. Thousands left disillusioned, heartsick. Glendale left holding the bag. Dont hold your breath waiting for the NHL to exhibit a conscience, accept or shoulder any responsibility.


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01-26-2013, 11:21 AM
  #64
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Why would you or anyone expect there to be enough? Look at the history of the franchise in the valley. The most successful years took place under league stewardship. Dave Tippett and Don Maloney have managed to rig together a competent roster, with less money, more restrictions and no owner. That should clue you in as to how incompetent and disinterested past owners have been. At one point they were paying Gretzky, a terrible coach with zero experience, 6-7 million a season to 'coach' this team. They thought that was a wonderful idea.

They first came to AWA, where they couldn't ever make money due to the arrangement. The team fell off the face of the earth from 02-09. You just can't do that in a four+ sport market. Not when you are supposed to be a brand new, exciting product. Not when you have zero history. You can't ice embarrassing, soul-sucking teams, and have zero direction from management. There are tons of hockey fans in the valley. But the Coyotes are not their team, and have never given them a reason to switch. Look at how well the Hawks and Red Wings draw, for example. You can't build an arena in a suburb, ice a **** product and expect people to throw money at you. I was born in Detroit and grew up on the Avs-Wings rivalry. Hockey is my first sport. But I can understand how people here never came to love hockey. What was put on the ice was shameful. It didn't help that the Suns, Cardinals and Diamondbacks all experienced success while the Coyotes were vying for top 10 picks every year with no hope of improving.

People will say this is an indictment on Phoenix as a hockey market. It really isn't. It's just a blueprint of exactly what not to do when expanding into a new market. I'd be more furious, on a personal level, but I know QC will be a great market. If any of the cities slated to get a team are going to take them, that's who I want. I'm sure QC appreciates inheriting a pretty damn good team. Guess I should start learning french.
Hockey is my first sport, my #1 favorite too. Only I grew up in Chicagoland, not Detroit.

I wonder how many of us can say hockey is our first sport...

Random thoughts #1 -

I only have full season tix for the Coyotes and the NFL Cardinals, and my season tix for the Yotes cost me 4 times what my full season tix cost me for the Cards (for 4.3 times the number of home games). Yet the Cards reportedly make tens of millions of profits each year thanks to revenue sharing and the Yotes lose tens of millions each year. And the Cards have a higher payroll & their salary cap is about twice ($121 million) what the Coyotes is (about $60 million). But of course, the NHL does it right and the NFL does it wrong... according to some out-of-staters...

Random thoughts #2 -

Minor league hockey will NOT fill the Glendale Arena. It would have a better probability of filling Grand Canyon University Arena and for a minor league team that would be doing "great" to average 5,000 per game, GCUA would be a much better atmosphere for 5000 fans to watch minor league hockey than 17,125 jobing.com arena.


Random thoughts #3 -

If the sale doesn't close if the league sells to a relocation group - don't lie by omission, Mr. B - announce it as soon as you know it. Let the fans have ther facts and decide for themselves how to react to it.

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01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #65
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Hockey is my first sport, my #1 favorite too. Only I grew up in Chicagoland, not Detroit.

I wonder how many of us can say hockey is our first sport...

Random thoughts #1 -

I only have full season tix for the Coyotes and the NFL Cardinals, and my season tix for the Yotes cost me 4 times what my full season tix cost me for the Cards (for 4.3 times the number of home games). Yet the Cards reportedly make tens of millions of profits each year thanks to revenue sharing and the Yotes lose tens of millions each year. And the Cards have a higher payroll & their salary cap is about twice ($121 million) what the Coyotes is (about $60 million). But of course, the NHL does it right and the NFL does it wrong... according to some out-of-staters...

Random thoughts #2 -

Minor league hockey will NOT fill the Glendale Arena. It would have a better probability of filling Grand Canyon University Arena and for a minor league team that would be doing "great" to average 5,000 per game, GCUA would be a much better atmosphere for 5000 fans to watch minor league hockey than 17,125 jobing.com arena.


Random thoughts #3 -

If the sale doesn't close if the league sells to a relocation group - don't lie by omission, Mr. B - announce it as soon as you know it. Let the fans have ther facts and decide for themselves how to react to it.
All valid points, but in regards to your point #1 the NFL television contract basically assures every NFL team profitability. Revenue sharing in the NHL is the redistribution of wealth based on the ticket revenue profits that fans of successful NHL teams have to fork over to watch the game. Subsidizing teams that lose money that charge very little for tickets makes no sense.


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01-26-2013, 11:40 AM
  #66
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Random thoughts #2 - Minor league hockey will NOT fill the Glendale Arena....
Random thoughts #3 - ...don't lie by omission, Mr. B - announce it...
If "State of Hockey" Minnesota couldnt fill their building with minor pro after the North Stars amscrayed, there's no way Glendale would have a hope in Hell with an AHL franchise. After a steady diet of filet mignon, and all due respect to the AHL & ECHL, not happenin. Its way too much building for second tier hockey however, they just might not have a choice BUT to try it on. A combination of minor-pro, possibly securing franchises in a variety of indoor venue leagues, possibly several PBR dates, trying to re-attract things like the WCW, concerts, consumer & trade shows etc about all they can do. Unfortunately, I think your facing a revolving door of franchises in the future, as efforts will simply have to be made to try & fill the building, if even playing to 3500-5000 people, upper bowl & concourses closed, curtained off.... agree with your 3rd "random thought", but as stated earlier up-page, little to no expectation/confidence that thats how the current administration at the NHL's going to handle it.

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01-26-2013, 12:00 PM
  #67
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So is it safe to say that Jamison and the JIG has never had the required funds to buy the team, even though it has been stated in the past that the finances were in order?

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01-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #68
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If the sale doesn't close if the league sells to a relocation group - don't lie by omission, Mr. B - announce it as soon as you know it. Let the fans have ther facts and decide for themselves how to react to it.
Unfortunately, most re-locations under Bettman have seen the official announcement come after the team's last game. Only the North Stars's announcement came before their last game (announcement was March 10, last game in April). All the others (Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, and Atlanta) came after the last game. Now it was widely rumored/assumed that the moves were going to take place before the last game, but it wasn't official until afterwards.

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01-26-2013, 12:32 PM
  #69
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So is it safe to say that Jamison and the JIG has never had the required funds to buy the team, even though it has been stated in the past that the finances were in order?
no, the NHL has had enough to do trying to recover its fanbase from what occurred until 1/19/13, no one can truly say, nor would the League state that there is an update, until the BOG meetings.... how many NHL Fans HAVE ACTUALLY sat in on a NHL BOG meeting...

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01-26-2013, 12:46 PM
  #70
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"the biggest problem is there doesn't seem to be anybody, in a serious fashion, who wants to own the franchise"

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01-26-2013, 01:01 PM
  #71
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no, the NHL has had enough to do trying to recover its fanbase from what occurred until 1/19/13, no one can truly say, nor would the League state that there is an update, until the BOG meetings.... how many NHL Fans HAVE ACTUALLY sat in on a NHL BOG meeting...
In the case of the sale of a franchise, the BoG can convene and vote pretty quickly. If the JIG had the money to buy the team, wouldn't they have done that already? Especially considering the huge leap of faith the City of Glendale took by signing off on the AMF/Lease/Subsidy. There are 5 days left, and nary a word has been spoken regarding the sale. It should only be respectful for the JIG to update the citizens of Glendale (and the fans of the NHL, as well) on the status of the finances of his investors group. And I don't mean disclosing his investors, but simply stating if the money is in place to purchase the team, or if he's simply waiting on signatures from those in his group.

This shouldn't need to be an 11th hour deal. He's had more than enough time to get his act together.

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01-26-2013, 01:03 PM
  #72
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"the biggest problem is there doesn't seem to be anybody, in a serious fashion, who wants to own the franchise"
or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Email
"... but this is looking more and more difficult since no one seems to be excited about a team losing $40mm."
GB ~ internal email to BD - 4/4/09

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01-26-2013, 01:07 PM
  #73
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no, the NHL has had enough to do trying to recover its fanbase from what occurred until 1/19/13, no one can truly say, nor would the League state that there is an update, until the BOG meetings.... how many NHL Fans HAVE ACTUALLY sat in on a NHL BOG meeting...
BOG votes are generally a mere formality. Case in point, Bettman announced the Thrashers would move to Winnipeg on May 31. The BOG officially gave approval June 21. Bettman doesn't make the announcement unless he was certain the BOG would approve it. It isn't BOG approval that is holding this deal up.

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01-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #74
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BOG votes are generally a mere formality. Case in point, Bettman announced the Thrashers would move to Winnipeg on May 31. The BOG officially gave approval June 21. Bettman doesn't make the announcement unless he was certain the BOG would approve it. It isn't BOG approval that is holding this deal up.
BOG approval is probably much more of a formality when you have one of the world's richest men buying the team and kicking in a hefty relocation fee, than it is with a cobbled together investment group that might need the NHL to either cut the price or help finance the purchase. That might need a bit of discussion...

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01-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #75
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Unfortunately, most re-locations under Bettman have seen the official announcement come after the team's last game. Only the North Stars's announcement came before their last game (announcement was March 10, last game in April). All the others (Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, and Atlanta) came after the last game. Now it was widely rumored/assumed that the moves were going to take place before the last game, but it wasn't official until afterwards.
Hartford and Winnipeg both had their announcements prior to the end of the season. Hartford just didn't announce where they were going.

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