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Valley of the Shadow of General Stars Talk V

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Old
02-11-2013, 11:42 PM
  #501
Troy McClure
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
How in the world did you get that idea?
You called this a building season.

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02-11-2013, 11:58 PM
  #502
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You're making the mistake of thinking that the team is not interested in winning this season. Heika may have called this a "transition season," but nothing this team has done has given me the impression the team thinks of this season as little more than an extended training camp for young players. They are playing veterans in key roles, but they are also playing more young players than this team has ever done in the past. Larsen not playing is less about a cap on rookies and more about a cap on small defensemen, with the few spots for them going to veterans who have proven more.
Going so far as to call this season an extended training camp for young players is putting words in my mouth.

Two things. One, if management thinks this team is ready for a major run in the playoffs they're delusional, which is itself a problem of note worth putting in the "who's to blame" thread. Playing veterans like Jagr, Whitney, Roy, and Ryder in key positions takes the onus off of young players having to contribute offense right out of the gate. I was on board with that then and I'm on board with it now. I have much less of an issue with forward personnel use than on the defensive side of things. Which brings us to...

Number two, IF the team is trying to win and go deep in the playoffs this season they have got to be realistic about analyzing the play of their own players. Even with Larsen taking a few too many penalties he has added more to this team positively than he's taken away, and he adds more to the overall mix on defense than some concoction without him. Larsen helps this team win on any given night more than Robidas can at this point in his career, especially if he were given Robidas' PP minutes, which he's doing nothing with.

If a GM who wants to win now and wants to continue developing its young player, a guy they've invested a lot of time and effort into bringing along, has any balls he would trade the underachieving veteran to make way for the younger, more promising player. Larsen is flat out a better player than Robidas. If you disagree then there's not much more to discuss because we're too far apart in how we view the players.

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02-12-2013, 01:08 AM
  #503
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Just a few thoughts on this:

First, I obviously think that Larsen is better than Robidas. As I've said before I'm not terribly broken up about Larsen not getting as much play as he "should," like some people are, but it would obviously be better for Robidas to go away/retire/get traded.

Second, I keep noticing a thread of "we're not a serious contender, so why focus on being good?" I know you guys aren't saying that the team should try to suck, but it seems like you're getting the "the cup is everything" attitude somewhat prematurely.

I think that there's a middle ground between wanting to develop players and aiming for a serious cup run. I know that Stars fans haven't really had a lot of experience with the whole sucking->drafting good potential->honing that potential->seriously contending pattern, but you've had ample opportunity to watch it on hfboards for other teams over the years.

What I'm getting at is that eventually you'll reach a point where the team is supposed to be really good, but "lack of playoff experience" ends up being a knock on the whole group. And in time the "ooh shiny and new!" players like Larsen, Dillon, Smith, etc. get hated on for lacking that experience.

Further, attracting free agents is going to be easier for a playoff team. Not to mention getting more people into the building. Rebuilding the fanbase. A deep playoff run isn't the only reason to want to see the playoffs.

What I'm trying to say is that a seven game playoff series might do a lot of good for both the development of the young players AND the general health of the team/fanbase.

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02-12-2013, 01:17 AM
  #504
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What would do wonders for the team and the fan base is Nathan McKinnon or Seth Jones. But with the Stars embrace of mediocrity as success, we're denied both genuine high-end talent and any chance of seeing this team deep into the playoffs any time soon.

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02-12-2013, 01:35 AM
  #505
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What would do wonders for the team and the fan base is Nathan McKinnon or Seth Jones. But with the Stars embrace of mediocrity as success, we're denied both genuine high-end talent and any chance of seeing this team deep into the playoffs any time soon.
You... do realize that's not very realistic under any circumstances, right? Only two teams will have a shot at them. And even then by putting all of your eggs in one basket like that you're only a concussion/stunted development path/whatever away from being back to square one. Unlikely, maybe, but nothing is a surefire way to develop a championship contender.

And I know that hfboards tends to overrate the value of picking superstars in the draft, but that's not the only way to win a cup.

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02-12-2013, 01:40 AM
  #506
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You... do realize that's not very realistic under any circumstances, right? Only two teams will have a shot at them. And even then by putting all of your eggs in one basket like that you're only a concussion/stunted development path/whatever away from being back to square one. Unlikely, maybe, but nothing is a surefire way to develop a championship contender.

And I know that hfboards tends to overrate the value of picking superstars in the draft, but that's not the only way to win a cup.

A high pick that yields genuine top-end talent that isn't squandered on a useless goaltender or made-of-glass 4th line spare would be the **** this team needs. It obviously doesn't have to be a #1 or #2 pick, but this team desperately needs a legit #1 center and / or a #1 defenseman to be competitive.

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02-12-2013, 02:05 AM
  #507
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A high pick that yields genuine top-end talent that isn't squandered on a useless goaltender or made-of-glass 4th line spare would be the **** this team needs. It obviously doesn't have to be a #1 or #2 pick, but this team desperately needs a legit #1 center and / or a #1 defenseman to be competitive.
Well, considering that historically only the top 3 draft picks have a better than 50% chance of even remotely fitting what you're asking for... Let's just say that you might as well use the crystal ball you think could guarantee a sure thing #1 dman/center in every round of the draft instead of just with a top ten pick, that way we'd get about seven superstars instead of just one.

NHL teams exist to entertain their fanbase, not amass high end picks. And before you question that, look at the years of misery some teams have endured under the style of management that you're advocating. I mean, those years of misery sure helped out the CBJ, right?

Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying I really disagree that it would be great to get a good draft pick. If/when we finish in the 14th pick range yet again I'll rant about that too. I just think that the 4-9 pick isn't a cure-all, and that I think this team's current prospect pool isn't that bad. We aren't in a "doomed to stay in the playoff bubble" situation.


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Old
02-12-2013, 03:06 AM
  #508
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I'm not advocating "tanking", I'm advocating icing the best possible lineup. In my world that lineup includes Philip Larsen, a guy who can make a competent entry into the offensive zone and who has the confidence to make a play at the blueline. These traits are not present in any of our other "puck moving" defensemen. I'm also advocating that the front office have a clear philosophy. If we're in it to win it, let's trim the fat. If we're in this to stroke the egos and pay past dues to players long in the tooth, then so be it. The latter is clearly a losing philosophy and hopefully something the new owner has no time for.

Also, the claim that top picks historically are 50/50 star/non-star player is dubious. You basically have to go back to the Chris Phillips 1996 draft to find a top pick who wasn't a star/superstar.* Again, I'm not advocating tanking, but top picks have been especially prone to stardom post 2004-05 lockout.

*Excluding goaltenders, DiPietro and Fleury due to the nature of their position. Even in those circumstances the skaters chosen immediately after them were Heatley, Gaborik, Eric Staal, and Horton.

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02-12-2013, 03:10 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Also, the claim that top picks historically are 50/50 star/non-star player is dubious. You basically have to go back to the Chris Phillips 1996 draft to find a top pick who wasn't a star/superstar.* Again, I'm not advocating tanking, but top picks have been especially prone to stardom post 2004-05 lockout.
If you read again you'll see that I said picks beyond the first three were about 50/50 at best.

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02-12-2013, 03:24 AM
  #510
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If you read again you'll see that I said picks beyond the first three were about 50/50 at best.
Ah my bad, I misread that.

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02-12-2013, 10:12 AM
  #511
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Two things. One, if management thinks this team is ready for a major run in the playoffs they're delusional,
I doubt they see a Cup run in this season, but they obviously think this team can make the playoffs. That has been the goal since the offseason. And for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in as long as this team has, just making the playoffs is a big step. A big step financially and for reviving fan interest.

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Number two, IF the team is trying to win and go deep in the playoffs this season they have got to be realistic about analyzing the play of their own players. Even with Larsen taking a few too many penalties he has added more to this team positively than he's taken away, and he adds more to the overall mix on defense than some concoction without him. Larsen helps this team win on any given night more than Robidas can at this point in his career, especially if he were given Robidas' PP minutes, which he's doing nothing with.

If a GM who wants to win now and wants to continue developing its young player, a guy they've invested a lot of time and effort into bringing along, has any balls he would trade the underachieving veteran to make way for the younger, more promising player. Larsen is flat out a better player than Robidas. If you disagree then there's not much more to discuss because we're too far apart in how we view the players.
Larsen isn't flat out better. If he was, he would be playing. I am ready to move on from Robidas and give his spot to Larsen, but as long as Robidas is on the team, I can understand why he is playing. It's the same decision every coach would make.

As for the bolded part, I think that is overstating things a little. The defense is not better if Larsen plays over Dillon, Daley, Oleksiak, a normal Goligoski, or maybe even Rome.

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02-12-2013, 11:14 AM
  #512
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It's the same decision every coach would make.
Have a hard time believing that, especially when the reason given for scratching him are the same mistakes Robidas has been making ever since his 08 playoff run.

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02-12-2013, 11:37 AM
  #513
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Have a hard time believing that, especially when the reason given for scratching him are the same mistakes Robidas has been making ever since his 08 playoff run.
Sure, but you need to look at the roles the coach is trying to fill. If you look at how these d-men are used, Larsen is used much more like Goligoski than Robidas.

Whatever you think of him, Robidas plays a ton of shorthanded minutes. Larsen essentially has played next to no shorthanded time last season or this season, and this team already has Goligoski and Oleksiak playing very little PK.

If they take Robidas out of the lineup, his PK minutes have to go somewhere, and the coaches prefer to use set pairs on the PK. Of Larsen, Goligoski, and Oleksiak, who becomes the full time PK d-man to take Robidas's spot?
  • Oleksiak - I love the kid's potential, but I don't know that I want him to be asked to do too much at this stage. Maybe he could handle it. He's certainly the best equipped of the three.
  • Goligoski - No way. No.
  • Larsen - Do you really think Larsen is ready or able to be a full time PK player? I don't think he is, and that's probably the biggest reason why he can't displace Robidas from the starting lineup.

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02-12-2013, 12:13 PM
  #514
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Robidas is great on the PK, but on the PP, he shouldn't ever leave the bench unless Gulutzan is angry at the boards 5 feet to either side of the net.

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02-12-2013, 01:26 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Sure, but you need to look at the roles the coach is trying to fill. If you look at how these d-men are used, Larsen is used much more like Goligoski than Robidas.

Whatever you think of him, Robidas plays a ton of shorthanded minutes. Larsen essentially has played next to no shorthanded time last season or this season, and this team already has Goligoski and Oleksiak playing very little PK.

If they take Robidas out of the lineup, his PK minutes have to go somewhere, and the coaches prefer to use set pairs on the PK. Of Larsen, Goligoski, and Oleksiak, who becomes the full time PK d-man to take Robidas's spot?
  • Oleksiak - I love the kid's potential, but I don't know that I want him to be asked to do too much at this stage. Maybe he could handle it. He's certainly the best equipped of the three.
  • Goligoski - No way. No.
  • Larsen - Do you really think Larsen is ready or able to be a full time PK player? I don't think he is, and that's probably the biggest reason why he can't displace Robidas from the starting lineup.
thinking about oleksiak on the pk scares me a bit.. he's had a few deer in the headlights moments behind his own net.

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02-12-2013, 01:40 PM
  #516
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thinking about oleksiak on the pk scares me a bit.. he's had a few deer in the headlights moments behind his own net.
That's a positive. We're 5 games into what we all hope is a long NHL career in Dallas. Expecting perfection is silly, and not playing him because he can't give you perfection is even worse.

You either have to quit jerking them around and play the young guys meaningful minutes or just shelter them so they never develop.

Aside for never getting consistent games played, they never pushed Fistric to play tougher minutes. He always played the weakest competition on the team. How do ever know what you have if you don't give someone a decent chance?

This year, I actually think Gully has done a pretty good job of that with Dillon. His responsibility and ice time are growing along with his confidence and performance. The same will likely be true of Oleksiak, but holding him back because of growing pains (which seems to be your suggestion) doesn't help the player or the team. It's not cliche ... these guys will never learn if they don't have the opportunity to make mistakes and develop.

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02-12-2013, 01:40 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Sure, but you need to look at the roles the coach is trying to fill. If you look at how these d-men are used, Larsen is used much more like Goligoski than Robidas.

Whatever you think of him, Robidas plays a ton of shorthanded minutes. Larsen essentially has played next to no shorthanded time last season or this season, and this team already has Goligoski and Oleksiak playing very little PK.

If they take Robidas out of the lineup, his PK minutes have to go somewhere, and the coaches prefer to use set pairs on the PK. Of Larsen, Goligoski, and Oleksiak, who becomes the full time PK d-man to take Robidas's spot?
  • Oleksiak - I love the kid's potential, but I don't know that I want him to be asked to do too much at this stage. Maybe he could handle it. He's certainly the best equipped of the three.
  • Goligoski - No way. No.
  • Larsen - Do you really think Larsen is ready or able to be a full time PK player? I don't think he is, and that's probably the biggest reason why he can't displace Robidas from the starting lineup.
This is a pretty great articulation of the situation. The only part I would argue is that Larsen has the potenatial to be a decent pk option. He doesn't appear to be suited for it but he plays with enough physicality and brains to take some of those Robidas shorthanded minutes IMO.


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02-12-2013, 01:46 PM
  #518
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Larsen's game at every other level was about steady defense. He didn't breakout as an offensive player until he reached the AHL.

I'd say he and Goligoski are not comparable much at all. If anything, he's more comparable to Daley than Robidas or Goligoski.

With Frolunda and Denmark's national team, he's been a top shutdown option, and he excelled in that role. Scoring had always been a secondary part of this game.

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02-12-2013, 07:49 PM
  #519
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That's a positive. We're 5 games into what we all hope is a long NHL career in Dallas. Expecting perfection is silly, and not playing him because he can't give you perfection is even worse.

You either have to quit jerking them around and play the young guys meaningful minutes or just shelter them so they never develop.

Aside for never getting consistent games played, they never pushed Fistric to play tougher minutes. He always played the weakest competition on the team. How do ever know what you have if you don't give someone a decent chance?

This year, I actually think Gully has done a pretty good job of that with Dillon. His responsibility and ice time are growing along with his confidence and performance. The same will likely be true of Oleksiak, but holding him back because of growing pains (which seems to be your suggestion) doesn't help the player or the team. It's not cliche ... these guys will never learn if they don't have the opportunity to make mistakes and develop.
mistakes i expect. panic and indecision i do not. i found it very disconcerting when i saw it.

and while it's important to put them in important places, doing so too quickly can kill a player's confidence if it's too much, or too soon. it's easy to become enamored with upside and forget just how polished and refined any veteran's game is compared to the rookies... and you know the younger players see that in practice- and it could be a small thing, but when your confidence is chipped away at, and you start second guessing yourself, your development can really be stunted. so if you screw up at a big juncture and cost the team the game, or a goal, it can possibly make them more cautious the next game (in a bad way) or just tentative or second guessing. there's no need to rush these kids into playing 20 min a night in every situation. protect them a little until they shove their way into those roles.

sorry, the beginning of that is poorly written. i'm too tired to fix it. hope you can whittle out my intent.

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02-12-2013, 08:31 PM
  #520
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Larsen isn't flat out better. If he was, he would be playing. I am ready to move on from Robidas and give his spot to Larsen, but as long as Robidas is on the team, I can understand why he is playing. It's the same decision every coach would make.
Nothing chaps my ass like the logic behind the bolded part. This is the same kind of bs argument people get into when fans disagree with a move a coach made - hey, he's around these guys all the time and being paid a lot of money, what do you know about coaching? The other side to that is that there are many different coaches all with very different approaches, some of whom would agree, on any given occasion, with the whims of the fans that disagree with the present coach.

Saying "he would play if he were" is a circular argument because I'm arguing that this coach is making the wrong move in not playing him and there are probably a stable of coaches not named Glen Gulutzan, who have proven more in this league to boot*, that would play Larsen every single night.

*I hope the irony of my not giving Gulutzan, a rookie coach, the patience to learn that some probably feel he deserves is apparent.

As to the latter part of your quote above, I covered that already - take away the coach's blanky.

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02-12-2013, 08:52 PM
  #521
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To derail the thread. I didn't see this posted anywhere in the past few days:

From Heika's Friday chat:

Quote:
Barring a really strong comeback from Morrow that includes an impressive playoff run, I would not see him being re-signed. I think the team is ready to move on, just as it did from Modano and Turco. I appreciate everything he has done, and everything he is doing right now, but it seems they have to open up space in the top six for young forwards with speed and skill, so I think this will be Brenden's last year with the Stars.
Heika is just speculating and probably has no real source, but interesting none the less.

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02-12-2013, 08:54 PM
  #522
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Even with a good playoff run, it should be his last.

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02-12-2013, 08:54 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
To derail the thread. I didn't see this posted anywhere in the past few days:

From Heika's Friday chat:



Heika is just speculating and probably has no real source, but interesting none the less.
Doesn't seem like it's much of a mystery...

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02-12-2013, 08:59 PM
  #524
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Even with a good playoff run, it should be his last.
I hope he has a great showing in this year's playoffs .... with Vancouver or Boston or .... I don't really care.


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02-12-2013, 09:15 PM
  #525
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Unfortunately I don't think a trade is in the cards. They'll just quietly change the locks after the last game and go their separate ways... like with Turco and Modano.

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