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Old
03-01-2013, 01:00 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
That's the problem. Until Oleksiak and Nemeth establish themselves as full time, quality NHLers*, this defense is going to be bad. There's no other d-man on this team that has a meaningful high end, which means the team will continue to flounder with its bad mix of guys who are all average at best.

* - Until implies some sense of certainty. I'm probably being too optimistic about both guys.
Exactly. They all have to take the huge step that Dillon actually is making this year. There's no guarantee of that and one or more may plateau well below their expected ceiling for a variety of reasons.

As we've seen fixing the forwards while not easy is light years faster than fixing the defense. Time, experience, and the right players are the only thing that's going to make that work and unfortunately we're still in the early stages of that development which some fans either can't grasp or don't want to understand.

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03-01-2013, 07:20 AM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
unfortunately we're still in the early stages of that development which some fans either can't grasp or don't want to understand.
You kept saying this ... or some variation of this ... last night. It's the team that clearly doesn't see this. Their decisions point to the fact they believe they are more playoff team than 5th time loser.

It's the same belief they've had for 4 other years and been totally wrong. They're still in it this year, and signs also point to them make another move to try and get over the hump.

I think an overwhelming number of fans would have preferred they were patient and rolled the dice on a less experience team coming together and getting over the hump. Had they failed again, they would have potentially been able to benefit from a very useful sell off of talent. That's still possible even after the Ryder trade, but now it would occur without their most valuable selling asset.

You're addressing fans, but it's pretty obvious most agree with you. You can either not accept this team is going in a different direction than the masses prefer or realize this is a win now season. Heika's used the analogy several times, but they're chasing two rabbits, and so far they're 4 for 4 on not catching either damn rabbit.

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03-01-2013, 09:22 AM
  #853
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The lack of realistic analysis is getting pretty frustrating.

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03-01-2013, 09:43 AM
  #854
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
The lack of realistic analysis is getting pretty frustrating.
Are you talking about from a fan POV or a team POV? I think I understand which way you're leaning, but I'd rather not just make an assumption.

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03-01-2013, 10:00 AM
  #855
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Are you talking about from a fan POV or a team POV? I think I understand which way you're leaning, but I'd rather not just make an assumption.
The team. Going back to when Ott's contract was extended instead of him being traded this organization hasn't had a realistic analysis of where their team stands relative to the rest of the league.

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03-01-2013, 10:02 AM
  #856
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I can't tell if Lyle Richardson is talking about the Flames or the Dallas Stars ...

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SPECTOR’S NOTE: It was a desperate attempt to land a good young player who could’ve given the Flames a possible boost into a playoff berth, thus allowing ownership and management to delude themselves further into believing they can still build a successful roster around their ageing superstars. Hopefully, their inability to sign O’Reilly will finally give those who run the Flames the cold slap of reality they need to finally admit they must rebuild, and it starts by moving their ageing stars for the best return possible.
I posted this for the Bouwmeester bandwagon. I don't agree that he's an aging star, and I think, based on his play this season, they could now see him as part of the solution. If I'm wrong though, maybe the Flames finally will start selling.

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03-01-2013, 10:09 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
The lack of realistic analysis is getting pretty frustrating.
And it has been that way and the analysis subjected to confirmation bias ever since a former Conn Smythe winner took reins as GM- a person who was clearly under-qualified and inexperienced for the job.

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03-01-2013, 10:12 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
You kept saying this ... or some variation of this ... last night. It's the team that clearly doesn't see this. Their decisions point to the fact they believe they are more playoff team than 5th time loser.

It's the same belief they've had for 4 other years and been totally wrong. They're still in it this year, and signs also point to them make another move to try and get over the hump.

I think an overwhelming number of fans would have preferred they were patient and rolled the dice on a less experience team coming together and getting over the hump. Had they failed again, they would have potentially been able to benefit from a very useful sell off of talent. That's still possible even after the Ryder trade, but now it would occur without their most valuable selling asset.

You're addressing fans, but it's pretty obvious most agree with you. You can either not accept this team is going in a different direction than the masses prefer or realize this is a win now season. Heika's used the analogy several times, but they're chasing two rabbits, and so far they're 4 for 4 on not catching either damn rabbit.
I know what you're saying and I probably put this on the wrong board. This is a post that should go on DBD when people are wondering why this isn't working. I also agree that management isn't facing reality. I'm hoping games like last night and a tough stretch against better teams will wake them up. I'm certainly not holding my breath because I think at his core Joe N isn't capable of saying I don't believe in my team. With that in mind he cannot sell because like I've said before all his work would be a failure in his eyes.

There's still time for that to change cause like you said everyone has games in hand on Dallas and though they have more home than road games they'll be playing better teams down the stretch. These games in March will decide all and I expect just like the last four years Dallas will do something stupid in the vain hope of making it in. 9th-14th draft pick, with a valuable asset or two less due to a panic trade. Nothing about Niewendyk's tenure here says shows anything else.

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03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
I know what you're saying and I probably put this on the wrong board. This is a post that should go on DBD when people are wondering why this isn't working. I also agree that management isn't facing reality. I'm hoping games like last night and a tough stretch against better teams will wake them up. I'm certainly not holding my breath because I think at his core Joe N isn't capable of saying I don't believe in my team. With that in mind he cannot sell because like I've said before all his work would be a failure in his eyes.

There's still time for that to change cause like you said everyone has games in hand on Dallas and though they have more home than road games they'll be playing better teams down the stretch. These games in March will decide all and I expect just like the last four years Dallas will do something stupid in the vain hope of making it in. 9th-14th draft pick, with a valuable asset or two less due to a panic trade. Nothing about Niewendyk's tenure here says shows anything else.


Having heard these arguments over and over again:

"Seek UFAs? You think you'd like for us to undergo what the Sabres are undergoing?"

"We're playing poorly? How about some perspective? Washington is playing poorly too!"

"Try to finish as low as possible to draft high and not chase the playoffs with a mediocre squad? Has this strategy improved EDM? Is there any guarantee that high draft picks will pan out?", or the evergreen

"You must really hate Nieuwendyk."

I'd have to say, they'll dig deep to the nether regions to find some twisted argument to support the "chasing two rabbits catching neither." NOT A SINGLE ONE among the contributors have ever accepted that Nieuwendyk was (and probably still is) under-qualified when he was hired to fix a colossal mes, lacks the aggressive negotiating skills to be GM, and has completely failed to take full stock of his team's successes every season.

I only wish we hired JD as our President instead of bringing back the ******* who called us all a bunch of Dorito-munching lard-*****.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:22 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
The lack of realistic analysis is getting pretty frustrating.
I think that is being pretty oversold though.

It can't be said enough that this team is playing more rookies than even a true rebuilding team would. You are witnessing a huge commitment to youth this season. It goes well beyond what the team even expected going into the season. The smattering of injuries have forced kids to come up, but also we've seen rookies displace inferior younger players as well on the lower lines.

There is a transformation of the roster taking place. Maybe they could demote Morrow for a rookie. Maybe they could have swapped Ryder for picks. But really, I can't think of anything else they could have done to make this more of a push for the future. They're already playing a significant number of first and second year players.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:40 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
I think that is being pretty oversold though.

It can't be said enough that this team is playing more rookies than even a true rebuilding team would. You are witnessing a huge commitment to youth this season. It goes well beyond what the team even expected going into the season. The smattering of injuries have forced kids to come up, but also we've seen rookies displace inferior younger players as well on the lower lines.

There is a transformation of the roster taking place. Maybe they could demote Morrow for a rookie. Maybe they could have swapped Ryder for picks. But really, I can't think of anything else they could have done to make this more of a push for the future. They're already playing a significant number of first and second year players.
I think you're mixing two different issues. Yes Dallas has played lots of rookies. No one questions that, more forwards than defense but regardless there is a youth movement going on.

That is partially tied into the fact that youth movement or no, the current roster of the Dallas Stars is not good yet. I think there's great hope for guys like Smith, Eakin, Dillon, and Oleksiak. There are and will continue to be growing pains for the next few seasons as more come up like Chiasson, Nemeth, Fraser etc.

So you can have a youth movement and still need to overhaul parts of your lineup. This team isn't a finished project as far as what Niewendyk or the fans want. The question now is do you maintain the status quo hoping you get in this year? Do you trade some of that youth to shore up the defense? Or do you finally sell some of your vets to add more to that youth movement or prospect pool in order to set themselves up to be better positioned in the next few seasons?

That's what Dallas has to decide. Most of us have what seems to be a different opinion of this current Stars roster than Joe N has. We'll see who's right as we get closer to the deadline and can pin down where in the playoff race the Stars really are and which direction the franchise should go.

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Old
03-01-2013, 03:15 PM
  #862
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For the stat nerds:

Quote:
Matthew Sekeres ‏@mattsekeres

4 years ago, the #Canucks were only #NHL team at the Sloan Sports Anlaytics Conference. This year, DAL, EDM, TB and WSH are there. #SSAC13
It's a conference hosted by MIT.

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03-01-2013, 03:23 PM
  #863
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I'll have to take some time to read this, but on of the speakers will discuss Total Hockey Ratings. This is the article.

Ray Whitney was 6th among all forwards in wins created. Could be a big reason Dallas signed them if they are serious about analytics. A trade target we've discussed before, Anrej Meszaros, is one of the Top D.

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03-01-2013, 03:24 PM
  #864
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They're going to trade for Meszaros when he's back.

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03-01-2013, 03:27 PM
  #865
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Benn will have a hearing with league regarding the cross check. I think most of us expected that.

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03-01-2013, 03:38 PM
  #866
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Jamie Benn will not be suspended.

Quote:
Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC

Benn's is a fine hearing. Since he could get more than $5000 (his half-day pay), there must be a hearing.

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03-01-2013, 04:41 PM
  #867
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They're going to trade for Meszaros when he's back.
I definitely believe that now. No problem with it either.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:27 PM
  #868
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What's an acceptable price for Mezaros? Philly fans were being absurd and throwing around a 1st or Oleksiak as the price. I would hope to god Joe wouldn't trade either of those two things for Mezaros.

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03-01-2013, 05:29 PM
  #869
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What's an acceptable price for Mezaros? Philly fans were being absurd and throwing around a 1st or Oleksiak as the price. I would hope to god Joe wouldn't trade either of those two things for Mezaros.
If his eyes are set on him, who knows what he would include to get him.

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03-01-2013, 05:40 PM
  #870
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If his eyes are set on him, who knows what he would include to get him.
Loui and a 1st

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03-01-2013, 05:43 PM
  #871
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Loui and a 1st
My head would explode.

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03-01-2013, 05:44 PM
  #872
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What's an acceptable price for Mezaros? Philly fans were being absurd and throwing around a 1st or Oleksiak as the price. I would hope to god Joe wouldn't trade either of those two things for Mezaros.
I could see Dallas offering up Larsen.

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03-01-2013, 05:46 PM
  #873
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I could see Dallas offering up Larsen.
Fine with me!

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:49 PM
  #874
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I could see Dallas offering up Larsen.
I'd do it.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:54 PM
  #875
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i really dont see why philly would move him

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