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Is Dion Phaneuf done?

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Old
01-26-2013, 10:36 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Poignant Discussion View Post
Kaberle never took shots

To blame your captain for an injury might be the dumbest thing I have ever read.

Seriously if watching this team bugs you so much, go watch a different team....it really is that easy
I watch players from around the league play Toronto and not do the same thing that Dion does.

I watch Chara/Weber/Pronger all Slap Shots from the Blue-Line and intentionally keep it relatively close to the ice so as not to endanger anyone. Is it too much to ask that the Captain of our hockey club show the same consideration?

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01-26-2013, 10:40 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I watch players from around the league play Toronto and not do the same thing that Dion does.

I watch Chara/Weber/Pronger all Slap Shots from the Blue-Line and intentionally keep it relatively close to the ice so as not to endanger anyone. Is it too much to ask that the Captain of our hockey club show the same consideration?


crap happens

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01-26-2013, 10:48 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post


crap happens
Are you kidding me? The anouncer even asks what was he thinking. Hi's coach is physically upset. That was a reckless play by Hatcher.

Dion shoots high up around peoples heads every game. Its not an isolated incident. Someone being hurt was long overdue.

What does he doe the next game? He blasts shots 7 feet off the ice at his teammates heads.

The guy just is simply disrespectful. thats the best term to describe Dion.

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01-26-2013, 10:58 AM
  #279
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He's the same player he's always been. On the bright side he's pretty big, he can dish out huge hits, he has a very hard shot with mediocre accuracy, he's a good puck handler, a good skater going forward, and a good offensive dman in general. On the down side, he's actually a pretty bad skater going backwards (CONSTANTLY getting blown by with ease), his positioning is below average, and his decision making in general is not great. I think he's a good top 4 dman, but you have to take the good with the bad. He's not a guy with a solid all around game, he's a player with some excellent strengths as well as some fairly ugly weaknesses. He's more or less McCabe 2.0 for us. He's a good top 4 dman, but not a #1, he should really be playing somewhat sheltered minutes instead of shutdown minutes.

As for Phaneuf taking out Lupul with that shot, that's just unlucky. Phaneuf has a big shot, he SHOULD be shooting a lot, this one happened to get away from him a bit, and it caught Lupul right in the wrong spot.


Last edited by ponder: 01-26-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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01-26-2013, 11:06 AM
  #280
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The answer to the OP's question is no.

The fact that Phaneuf's shot accidentally hit Lupul in the arm is not a reflection of his value as a defenceman. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just upset about the incident and looking for someone to blame.

The mere fact that this complaint only surfaced after a terrible 7-4 loss to the Islanders suggests that it is reactionary, and fails to take into account his very solid defensive play over the first three games of the season (he was exceedingly reliable in his own end against the Penguins).

Phaneuf was on the ice for four NYI goals last game, but cannot be blamed for all of them (Scrivens was soft in net). I wonder how solid Chara would look without Tim Thomas or Tuukka Rask in net to cover up for his mistakes.

Phaneuf racked up more hits last season than he did during any season with the Flames, and was 12th overall for defencemen in scoring. He is a good defenceman, who, like all good defencemen, occasionally plays a poor game.

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01-26-2013, 11:09 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
He's the same player he's always been. On the bright side he's pretty big, he can dish out huge hits, he has a very hard shot with mediocre accuracy, he's a good puck handler, a good skater going forward, and a good offensive dman in general. On the down side, he's actually a pretty bad skater going backwards (CONSTANTLY getting blown by with ease), his positioning is below average, and his decision making in general is not great. I think he's a good top 4 dman, but you have to take the good with the bad. He's not a guy with a solid all around game, he's a player with some excellent strengths as well as some fairly ugly weaknesses. He's more or less McCabe 2.0 for us. He's a good top 4 dman, but not a #1, he should really be playing somewhat sheltered minutes instead of shutdown minutes.
He's a much different player now than he was in Calgary. In Calgary he took significantly more chances and played a much more aggressive game both offensively and defensively. He would get beat on bad pinches on a nightly basis. His offensive stats have taken a big hit as he's moved away from that game, but he's become a much better defensive player (still not perfect, by any stretch).

Anyone who claims this is "the same Dion" didn't watch him in Calgary. He's become more consistent, less flashy and less of a risk in Toronto, but he doesn't have nearly as many big hits or big offensive opportunities either.

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01-26-2013, 11:17 AM
  #282
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Unless you want to manually count his hits and misses, those are the best records we have.

Shooting accuracy for this season seems high because of the small sample size. Chara, for instance, is still at 100% accuracy (he usually hovers around 72%).
And I doubt that Chara hasn't missed the net this season as well. The "these are the best records we have" excuse doesn't cut it when we use plus/minus as an argument on these boards most of the time, missed shots and hits are taken with a large grain of salt for me. To each their own.

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01-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #283
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He's a much different player now than he was in Calgary. In Calgary he took significantly more chances and played a much more aggressive game both offensively and defensively. He would get beat on bad pinches on a nightly basis. His offensive stats have taken a big hit as he's moved away from that game, but he's become a much better defensive player (still not perfect, by any stretch).

Anyone who claims this is "the same Dion" didn't watch him in Calgary. He's become more consistent, less flashy and less of a risk in Toronto, but he doesn't have nearly as many big hits or big offensive opportunities either.
My point was that I don't think his talent/ability has dropped off significantly. He's playing a different role in Toronto, they're asking him to be a #1, all around dman when he's more suited to sheltered minutes, but I don't think his ability/talent has dropped off much.

People should also remember that the league is different than when Phaneuf was tearing it up. In those first few years after the lockout, refs were calling WAY MORE PENALTIES than they do now, so pretty much across the board star players were getting WAY MORE PP TIME, which really inflated their stats. In his first 4 seasons in the league, Phaneuf averaged over 5 mpg on the PP every single year, and over 5:30 mpg in two of those seasons. In his first 3 seasons he put up 31-33 points on the PP each year. PPs are way down league wide now, last year Phaneuf averaged 3:33 mpg of PP time, and put up 22 PP points. Give him 60% more PP time (like he had in his big scoring seasons), he probably puts up 60% more PP points, which would put him in that 55-60 point range last season.

A lot of the early hype around Phaneuf was because he was a young player with great tools (size, speed, aggression, good skater going forward, bomb of a shot) who was putting up great numbers. The flaws were always there in his defensive game, he always had weak mobility going backwards, and he always made lots of mistakes, but people looked past those issues as rookie mistakes. Now that he's older and hasn't really resolved those issues, people see them as negatives more clearly. I do think he's more or less the same player he was in Calgary, but he's just being asked to play a different role right now (one that's a bit outside of his comfort zone).


Last edited by ponder: 01-26-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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01-26-2013, 11:44 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
My point was that I don't think his talent/ability has dropped off significantly. He's playing a different role in Toronto, they're asking him to be a #1, all around dman when he's more suited to sheltered minutes, but I don't think his ability/talent has dropped off much.

People should also remember that the league is different than when Phaneuf was tearing it up. In those first few years after the lockout, refs were calling WAY MORE PENALTIES than they do now, so pretty much across the board star players were getting WAY MORE PP TIME, which really inflated their stats. In his first 4 seasons in the league, Phaneuf averaged over 5 mpg on the PP every single year, and over 5:30 mpg in two of those seasons. In his first 3 seasons he put up 31-33 points on the PP each year. PPs are way down league wide now, last year Phaneuf averaged 3:33 mpg of PP time, and put up 22 PP points. Give him 60% more PP time (like he had in his big scoring seasons), he probably puts up 60% more PP points, which would put him in that 55-60 point range last season.

A lot of the early hype around Phaneuf was because he was a young player with great tools (size, speed, aggression, good skater going forward, bomb of a shot) who was putting up great numbers. The flaws were always there in his defensive game, he always had weak mobility going backwards, and he always made lots of mistakes, but people looked past those issues as rookie mistakes. Now that he's older and hasn't really resolved those issues, people see them as negatives more clearly. I do think he's more or less the same player he was in Calgary, but he's just being asked to play a different role right now (one that's a bit outside of his comfort zone).
You should also note that he lead Calgary in ES TOI/G his last 3 full seasons there, so it's tough to say he is playing a much different role here. He was their #1 ES D-man and their #1 PP D-man. The Leafs have added PK time, he gets more time in a shutdown role, but he wasn't sheltered in Calgary.

Either way, he's playing a much different game in Toronto than he was in Calgary. Saying he's the same player he always was isn't true. PP opportunities have changed, which has impacted his offensive numbers, but so has his style of play. That should be obvious to anyone who watched him in Calgary and Toronto.

The biggest flaw in his defensive game used to be his pinches. He was regularly caught out of position going for a big hit or trying to cheat for an offensive chance. As he's gotten older and switched teams, these have become much more rare.


Last edited by EazyB97: 01-26-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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Old
01-26-2013, 11:57 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You should also note that he lead Calgary in ES TOI/G his last 3 full seasons there, so it's tough to say he is playing a much different role here. He was their #1 ES D-man and their #1 PP D-man. The Leafs have added PK time.

Either way, he's playing a much different game in Toronto than he was in Calgary. Saying he's the same player he always was isn't true. PP opportunities have changed, which has impacted his offensive numbers, but so has his style of play. That should be obvious to anyone who watched him in Calgary and Toronto.

The biggest flaw in his defensive game used to be his pinches. He was regularly caught out of position going for a big hit or trying to cheat for an offensive chance. As he's gotten older and switched teams, these have become much more rare.
Well, his last season with the Flames (09/10) he was averaging less ES TOI than Bouwmeester, and less than White too if you want to count him (though obviously White didn't play many games there). While he did play a lot of minutes in Calgary, IMO he played more soft/sheltered minutes. He was put out for lots of offensive zone faceoffs, wasn't put out there to shut down the opposing team's top lines. In Toronto we tend to use him as our #1 shutdown dman, in Calgary that was always Regehr's job.

Again, I think we're arguing semantics here. I don't disagree that his style has changed a bit, but I think it's because he's being asked to play a different role. My main point is that I don't think his talent has declined much, he was overhyped in his early years in Calgary because he was young and exciting, and because people expected his flaws/"rookie mistakes" to go away with time. They never went away, and now people focus on these flaws much more, but I don't think he's a significantly worse dman than he was in his Calgary days.

As for the biggest flaw in his defensive game, I personally think it has always been mobility skating backwards. That's not a popular opinion, but I feel pretty strongly about that. He gets beaten super cleanly all the time 1 on 1, guys literally walk around him with ease, something that doesn't happen to most dmen.

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01-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Well, his last season with the Flames (09/10) he was averaging less ES TOI than Bouwmeester, and less than White too if you want to count him (though obviously White didn't play many games there). While he did play a lot of minutes in Calgary, IMO he played more soft/sheltered minutes. He was put out for lots of offensive zone faceoffs, wasn't put out there to shut down the opposing team's top lines. In Toronto we tend to use him as our #1 shutdown dman, in Calgary that was always Regehr's job.

Again, I think we're arguing semantics here. I don't disagree that his style has changed a bit, but I think it's because he's being asked to play a different role. My main point is that I don't think his talent has declined much, he was overhyped in his early years in Calgary because he was young and exciting, and because people expected his flaws/"rookie mistakes" to go away with time. They never went away, and now people focus on these flaws much more, but I don't think he's a significantly worse dman than he was in his Calgary days.

As for the biggest flaw in his defensive game, I personally think it has always been mobility skating backwards. That's not a popular opinion, but I feel pretty strongly about that. He gets beaten super cleanly all the time 1 on 1, guys literally walk around him with ease, something that doesn't happen to most dmen.
We agree that his stye's changed and he's stepped in to a more defensive role in Toronto. I don't think he saw sheltered minutes in Calgary, he just didn't play the tough defensive assignments on a nightly basis that we see now. Sheltered for me would be playing 15 minutes a night, mostly PP and against the 3rd/4th lines.

He's turned himself into a legit top pairing defender who can play all situations from a liability because he's improved on his pinches. He's not a Chara, Lidstrom or Pronger level defender and he never will be, but it's tough to say he hasn't improved on his flaws when he had huge issues with pinching and those mis-judgements don't happen nearly as often.

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01-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by LeafsColts13 View Post
Is this real? Dion has been great so far from what I have seen. Posts like this make me sad I'm a leafs fan.
Just because a poster comes to this board, and claims to be a Leaf fan, doesnt mean he/she actually likes the team. Some very sad posts here, and ignoring the blatantly obvious. Dion has been fantastic.

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01-26-2013, 12:14 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I watch players from around the league play Toronto and not do the same thing that Dion does.

I watch Chara/Weber/Pronger all Slap Shots from the Blue-Line and intentionally keep it relatively close to the ice so as not to endanger anyone. Is it too much to ask that the Captain of our hockey club show the same consideration?
This is one of the funnier posts I have seen here in a very long time. Apparently defencemen place importance on safety more so that winning a hockey game. Do you honestly know what the reasoning is for some hockey players to take hard low shots at the goalie. By your comment it looks like you dont know.

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01-26-2013, 12:20 PM
  #289
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Just thought id help Phaneuf out a bit...

D. Doughty: 77GP 36 PTS (0.47 PPG)
D. Phaneuf: 82GP 44 PTS (0.54 PPG)

2011-12

.........................D.Doughty ........D. Phaneuf
Corsi Rel QoC .......0.968.............1.399
Corsi QoC.............0.090........ 1.049
Corsi Rel...............1.5................3.3
Deff Zone Start..... 49.2...............50
GA On/60 ............1.96 (6th of 7)...........2.80 (3/7)
GA Off/60.............1.90................2.84
GF On/60 ............1.96................ 2.21
GF Off/60.............1.90................. 2.46


If Phaneufs bad, Doughty is terrible
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Phaneuf
SeasonShots on NetTotal ShotsShot Accuracy
2010-1119028466.9%
2011-1220229368.9%
2012-13121580.0%
Very funny how these two posts are completely ignored by the Phaneuf haters. Stick to the SI poll... much more analytical! (not) I was not a big fan of Dion his first combined season here, but the way he currently plays, he is in my opinion definitely a #1 and almost totally worth his contract (especially with the larger salary cap we now have compared to when he signed the deal). Those expecting "Boom Boom Dion" forget how often his "big" game used to lead to even bigger defensive gafs. He is NOT the same player anymore, but he is still capable of using the big shot (or are we forgetting the high-post he nailed against BUF in the home-opener) and unleashing big hits (if the Tavares hit doesn't count, ask Mike Sauer... he's still recovering). He just picks his spots much better.

Dion plays the most minutes on the team, he plays the most difficult minutes on the team and he still managed to be a positive Corsi player last year (only 9/26 Leafs managed this, none aside from Dion faced QoC over 1.0). He's done this with Francois Beauchemin, Carl Gunnarsson, Keith Aulie and now Mike Kostka as his partner... Dion has not had a legit #2 (or even #3 or #4 depending how you feel about Gunnar/Beauch's play in a Leafs uniform) to play with in his time here, making his on-ice work even more impressive. While there are D-men who make around the same as Dion that I'd rather have, many of these guys have played with much better players or for much better teams than Dion has (Suter/Weber, Seabrook/Keith etc.).

For all the Phaneuf haters, consider this: The Phaneuf deal came after the Kessel deal. We already traded our most valuable assets to Boston, so all we could really do was upgrade a whole bunch of replaceable roster players for Dion. While we are paying his large salary, we did not give up anything of real value (aside from Ian White, who was still moved twice shortly after the trade) to obtain Dion. Think about it... Would anyone on the main boards aside from Leafs fans not totally flame a "Stajan, Hagman and White for Dion" proposal?

I'll be the first to admit that Dion has lost a step from his Norris-nominee days, but anyone who watches the NHL (and not just the Leafs) knew he had hip surgery and subsequent issues post-recovery. He is prone to bonehead plays and can be inconsistent on a night-to-night basis. He's not perfect, but given the price to acquire him and the play he brings, at his very worst, he's still a top-pairing defenseman. Instead of just blindly hating (where in most cases, said hate isn't even statistically supported), I'd love to see the haters suggest some alternatives to the initial Dion deal or some potential moves to acquire this elusive "#1D" (and no... Phaneuf will not be dealt for Couturier. Philly didn't want to trade him for Weber, they are very high on him). Despite the level of hate many of you have for Dion, there hasn't been too much in the way of effective critical criticism aside from "the guy sucks! omg overpaid! disrespectful!" (lol seriously???)

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01-26-2013, 12:25 PM
  #290
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It's threads like these that make me embarrassed to be a leaf fan.

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01-26-2013, 12:30 PM
  #291
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It's threads like these that make me embarrassed to be a leaf fan.
People are equally stupid for not recognizing trolls.

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01-26-2013, 12:32 PM
  #292
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There is absolutely no way Phaneuf has only 3 missed shots so far this season. And he is also notoriously for shooting square into the shinpads of the guy covering him, which may not be an accuracy issue but is certainly an intelligence one.
So go through the games and count them if you don't believe the NHL.com stats. Prove your point, don't just spout conjecture and hyperbole. There's only been 4 games so far.

Put up (the stats) or shut up (about the stats)

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01-26-2013, 01:01 PM
  #293
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And I doubt that Chara hasn't missed the net this season as well. The "these are the best records we have" excuse doesn't cut it when we use plus/minus as an argument on these boards most of the time, missed shots and hits are taken with a large grain of salt for me. To each their own.
Hey, at least I'm not talking out of my @$$ about all the wild shots Phaneuf takes on any given night. If the official record doesn't suit your current agenda, so be it. I have a feeling you'll be back to using NHL.com stats to back up your arguments before too long.

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01-26-2013, 01:12 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
This is one of the funnier posts I have seen here in a very long time. Apparently defencemen place importance on safety more so that winning a hockey game. Do you honestly know what the reasoning is for some hockey players to take hard low shots at the goalie. By your comment it looks like you dont know.
I've already made it abundantly clear that keeping the puck in a position where it can easily be deflected/tipped - create a juicy rebound is the Smart Decison to make in that situation. And that cherry picking top shelf with 3 guys standing infront makes no sense. Best case scenario you miss the net. Most likely you're skating 200 feet to retrive it. Worst case someone looses an eye.

But as a general code of ethics displayed by 99.9% of players - nobody should be making choicess to win a hockey game that results in injuring another player.

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01-26-2013, 01:13 PM
  #295
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It's threads like these that make me embarrassed to be a leaf fan.
Thinking the same thing. Some of these posts are unbelievable.

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01-26-2013, 01:15 PM
  #296
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crap happens

What an absolutely awful 3 on 1

Who used to wear #15???

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01-26-2013, 01:20 PM
  #297
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What an absolutely awful 3 on 1

Who used to wear #15???
C'mon son... Kaberle.

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01-26-2013, 01:23 PM
  #298
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Oh wow. Should have recognized him when he passed up the shot.

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01-26-2013, 01:27 PM
  #299
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He's looked pretty bad his entire leafs tenure. It's very Mccabe-esque, if we were more relevant (i.e competing for a playoff spot), he very well could be booed out of town soon.

I don't understand why Carlysle and Wilson insist on riding him so many minutes. Either he's just naturally lazy or he's gassed half the time he's out there because his lethargic, careless play is contagious.

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01-26-2013, 01:40 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
This is one of the funnier posts I have seen here in a very long time. Apparently defencemen place importance on safety more so that winning a hockey game. Do you honestly know what the reasoning is for some hockey players to take hard low shots at the goalie. By your comment it looks like you dont know.
Keeping the puck low does both....allows players to go to the net without risking life and limb and it creates better chances for deflections and rebounds and screens.

Team's practice keeping the puck low......for those same reasons. Dion historically has blasted away.....hence why no one went to the net under Wilson.....Carlyle has told them they have to go to the net.....he wants screens as well as net drive on the rush creating traffic and opportunity to score.....along with tracking the puck. It is easy to see by watching what Carlyle wants.

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