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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XVII

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Old
02-14-2013, 03:05 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by Ref9 View Post
So if you are trading MAJO and Forsberg for ROR, it's pretty much MAJO and Varly for ROR and a 2nd rounder. I know what my North American bias is saying.
Yeah but we probably wouldn't do that, most likely Forsberg alone or MAJO+non-forsberg assets.

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02-14-2013, 03:05 PM
  #952
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Colorado put in competitive bids for both Parise and Suter this summer, according to Dater. They're not cash-strapped.

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02-14-2013, 03:07 PM
  #953
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AFAIK their owner is loaded, but their GM is told to be fiscally conservative unless the right move is there. So you won't see them giving out Leino type contracts to Leino type players but they'll spend when the situation dictates they should.

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02-14-2013, 03:07 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Colorado put in competitive bids for both Parise and Suter this summer, according to Dater. They're not cash-strapped.
I don't recall that. Was it sorta like how we put in a competitive bid for Chara? One of those "save face" moves by ownership trying to prove to the fanbase that they are trying to spend? I could see that.

Fact is they are in revenue sharing territory near the cap floor. They haven't opened up the purses seemingly and don't seem to want to pay this promising young player they have on their hands.

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02-14-2013, 03:10 PM
  #955
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Yeah but we probably wouldn't do that, most likely Forsberg alone or MAJO+non-forsberg assets.
Forsberg alone wouldn't be enough. Turris got Rundblad + 2nd. O'Reilly is better.

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02-14-2013, 03:13 PM
  #956
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Forsberg alone wouldn't be enough. Turris got Rundblad + 2nd. O'Reilly is better.
Sherman isn't a better GM than Maloney, though, at least not in terms of trading. I mean I expect this situation to be different than the Steward trade (much more obvious O'Reilly's available) but still, it's clear Sherman has an odd way of doing some things.

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02-14-2013, 03:13 PM
  #957
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Forsberg alone wouldn't be enough. Turris got Rundblad + 2nd. O'Reilly is better.
Maybe. I feel like everyone kinda knew Rundblad was super overhyped at the time though. At least GMs.

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02-14-2013, 03:15 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
I don't recall that. Was it sorta like how we put in a competitive bid for Chara? One of those "save face" moves by ownership trying to prove to the fanbase that they are trying to spend? I could see that.

Fact is they are in revenue sharing territory near the cap floor. They haven't opened up the purses seemingly and don't seem to want to pay this promising young player they have on their hands.
They subscribe to the "market value and not a penny more" philosophy. I doubt it was near the level of ridiculous overpayment Philly and Minnesota put in. More likely it was closer to Detroit IMO.

They were reportedly close to a deal this summer (likely based on the $17M over 5 years). Then, something happened that poisoned the well between O'Reilly and upper management and derailed the negotiations. Again, it's Dater, but the money was reportedly very close. And, as has been pointed out, the Avs are notorious for stingy second "bridge" contracts. They gave Stastny $6.6M and term.

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02-14-2013, 03:16 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Colorado put in competitive bids for both Parise and Suter this summer, according to Dater. They're not cash-strapped.
If true, this may be part of the problem, ROR feels they are low balling him but were willing to spend else where. Yeah that could cause a bridge being burnt.

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02-14-2013, 03:16 PM
  #960
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I think Stastny got his contract under different management. Also that's back when they had Sakic and Hejduk wasn't old yet and they were a win at all costs team I believe.

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02-14-2013, 03:17 PM
  #961
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Smyth, Liles and Hannan too

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02-14-2013, 03:19 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
They subscribe to the "market value and not a penny more" philosophy. I doubt it was near the level of ridiculous overpayment Philly and Minnesota put in. More likely it was closer to Detroit IMO.

They were reportedly close to a deal this summer (likely based on the $17M over 5 years). Then, something happened that poisoned the well between O'Reilly and upper management and derailed the negotiations. Again, it's Dater, but the money was reportedly very close. And, as has been pointed out, the Avs are notorious for stingy second "bridge" contracts. They gave Stastny $6.6M and term.
Well all I have heard so far has been "$5 million per". I can't recall if it was McKenzie throwing out that figure or not but I've heard it more than once.

It has seemed over the last 3 or 4 years that Colorado has been at the bottom of the league in terms of payroll. It just doesn't seem they are willing to spend.

I don't recall any big free agent signings so I find it hard to believe they are willing to spend.

I'd have to snoop around their message boards and read some articles by their local insiders to be sure and I'm far too lazy to do that.

EDIT:

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/buf130214.html

The Buffalo Sabres are among the teams believed to be interested in Colorado Avalanche restricted free agent center Ryan O'Reilly.
O'Reilly, 21, is still without a contract and the Avs have started to seriously explore the possibility of trading him.



The price tag, however, is steep, as Colorado GM Greg Sherman is asking for a top-six forward and a top prospect in exchange for O'Reilly.
It's unclear how serious talks between the Sabres and Avs have gotten, and it's uncertain what Buffalo GM Darcy Regier is willing to give up, however he does not appear interested in parting with the likes of Mikhail Grigorenko, Cody Hodgson or Tyler Ennis, while though Marcus Foligno could be someone Colorado takes a look at.

The Sabres, currently 12th in the Eastern Conference, would like to upgrade their roster, as Regier has been shopping for a top-six forward since the season started.

Several other teams, though, are also eyeing O'Reilly, including the Toronto Maple Leafs, Florida Panthers, New York Islanders, Philadelphia Flyers and Winnipeg Jets.

O'Reilly is looking for a five-year contract worth around $5 million per season.



yeah..ok..just what I suspected


Last edited by BobRouse: 02-14-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 03:26 PM
  #963
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Yeah but we probably wouldn't do that, most likely Forsberg alone or MAJO+non-forsberg assets.
I'm going on the draper report of a roster player and a prospect. ROR would obviously replace/upgrade MAJO at center.

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02-14-2013, 03:32 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I would argue that his ESTOI is high because he was line matched against the opposing top line (which gets the most ice time).
So? A 1st line center can't be also be a shutdown center? Tell that to Datsyuk, Mikko Koivu, and Plekanec. All of them are the #1 centers on their teams and regularly match up against the opponents' top lines.

And Colorado also dumped a lot of the harder match-up duty and defensive zone draws on McClement. O'Reilly wasn't the only guy they turned to against the opponent's scoring lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
As for the production of his linemates, one is shooting machine Calder-winning Gabriel Landeskog. Got it. The other is Daniel Winnik, who is essentially Chimera, or Steve Downie, who we know well. None of the Avs wingers are that great; Hejduk is old, McGinn came in late and hot, but tapered toward the end of the season; David Jones is inconsistent and can't hit the net, etc. Landeskog is a talent for sure, but from watching those games, I can tell you that line scored greasy goals. Work in the corners and driving the net type goals. It's not like O'Reilly was lined up with snipers. In fact, the only player Colorado has who really fits that bill is Hejduk.
He spent time with Hejduk (and to a far lesser extenet, Mueller and Olver) between his stint with Winnik at the beginning of the season and Downie at the end. The only guys he didn't really get to play with were Jones (who has chemistry with Stastny) and McGinn (and Duchene during his short lived experiment of playing on the wing).

So he started with Winnik, an defensive forward/checker. Once it became clear that he and Landeskog were able to produce, they were paired with more offensive fowards (Hejduk and Downie namely). Their top point producing winger was Landeskog. Their second highest was Downie. Hejduk was tied with McGinn and Jones for the 3rd most points from a Colorado winger. So he played with the #1, #2, and #3 highest scoring wingers on Colorado.

Once again, how is he not their #1 center last season?

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When you get a guy who can help long-term AND now, I don't see the problem with moving immediately. What's wrong with getting a guy who can help now and in the future? Again, I'm not advocating a rental. O'Reilly is 21 and has 4 more years of service until UFA.
Completely irrelevant to what I was saying. You negated all those wingers as possibilities because they're not available right now. Who cares if those wingers aren't available immediately?

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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
That's not what I meant. I meant that when Ribeiro does leave or get old, you have a guy who you know is ready to step in and take his place. I'm not counting on Johansson to be that guy.
Go build a roster with both Ribeiro and O'Reilly on it. See what it looks like. There's essentially no money left over to spend on anything else. Both long term and short term.

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I don't think they're mutually exclusive options, and acquiring O'Reilly would allow the Caps to ice a very strong two-way third line (assuming Chimera hasn't hit the wall) and a top shutdown 4th line, all while moving Laich back into the top 6, filling one of the wing holes (without arguing whether another option could fill that hole better).
I don't buy Laich as a better top six option than what we have. His production has always come on the powerplay, not even strength.
2011-2012: Laich was 8th on the team with 10 ESG (behind Ovie, Semin, Chimera, Brouwer, Perreault, Johansson, and 42 games of Nicklas Backstrom)
2010-2011: Laich was 6th on the team with 11 ESG (behind Ovechkin, Semin, Knuble, Backstrom, and Arnott*)
2009-2010: Laich was T-8th on the team with 12 ESG (behind Ovie, Semin, Knuble, Backstrom, Fehr, Fleischmann, and Chimera*, and tied with Belanger*)

*Counting goals scored before being traded to Caps

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Colorado put in competitive bids for both Parise and Suter this summer, according to Dater. They're not cash-strapped.
Dater will say whatever makes Colorado look good.

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02-14-2013, 04:29 PM
  #965
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The issue between Colorado and O'Reilly, as I understand it, is that the Avs don't think he's worth more than Duchene, whereas ROR's camp thinks he is.

So that's a pretty good indication that he wants $4M+.

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02-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  #966
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So a roster with Ribeiro and Laich is impossible?

Someone should tell GMGM

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02-14-2013, 04:57 PM
  #967
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So? A 1st line center can't be also be a shutdown center? Tell that to Datsyuk, Mikko Koivu, and Plekanec. All of them are the #1 centers on their teams and regularly match up against the opponents' top lines.

And Colorado also dumped a lot of the harder match-up duty and defensive zone draws on McClement. O'Reilly wasn't the only guy they turned to against the opponent's scoring lines.

He spent time with Hejduk (and to a far lesser extenet, Mueller and Olver) between his stint with Winnik at the beginning of the season and Downie at the end. The only guys he didn't really get to play with were Jones (who has chemistry with Stastny) and McGinn (and Duchene during his short lived experiment of playing on the wing).

So he started with Winnik, an defensive forward/checker. Once it became clear that he and Landeskog were able to produce, they were paired with more offensive fowards (Hejduk and Downie namely). Their top point producing winger was Landeskog. Their second highest was Downie. Hejduk was tied with McGinn and Jones for the 3rd most points from a Colorado winger. So he played with the #1, #2, and #3 highest scoring wingers on Colorado.
I'm not going to argue this anymore, but riddle me this: If he's a 21-year-old #1 center who's available for a roster player and prospect, how do you not make that move?

Quote:
Completely irrelevant to what I was saying. You negated all those wingers as possibilities because they're not available right now. Who cares if those wingers aren't available immediately?
I guess you've already written off the season then? If you can get someone to help now who's also a long-term asset, I see no reason not to. This guy can make an impact.

Quote:
Go build a roster with both Ribeiro and O'Reilly on it. See what it looks like. There's essentially no money left over to spend on anything else. Both long term and short term.
If it comes down to it, I take the 21-year-old player who's better defensively, has offensive upside, and is a rink rat and locker room leader over the 33 year-old, higher scoring player with a reputation for being lazy and a locker room problem, who has already reportedly clashed with the Caps' captain.

Quote:
I don't buy Laich as a better top six option than what we have. His production has always come on the powerplay, not even strength.
2011-2012: Laich was 8th on the team with 10 ESG (behind Ovie, Semin, Chimera, Brouwer, Perreault, Johansson, and 42 games of Nicklas Backstrom)
2010-2011: Laich was 6th on the team with 11 ESG (behind Ovechkin, Semin, Knuble, Backstrom, and Arnott*)
2009-2010: Laich was T-8th on the team with 12 ESG (behind Ovie, Semin, Knuble, Backstrom, Fehr, Fleischmann, and Chimera*, and tied with Belanger*)

*Counting goals scored before being traded to Caps
That's a fair analysis. I think he'd at least bring stability to the top 6.

Quote:
Dater will say whatever makes Colorado look good.
Dater is a buffoon, but not a mouthpiece. One of his most recent articles absolutely blasted the Avs organization for their approach to negotiating with RFAs.

Re: salary, it looks like he's looking for over $4M, but not $5M unless UFA years are involved. I think Laich's salary would get it done on a 3 year deal.

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02-14-2013, 05:12 PM
  #968
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i think too many look at the laich contract and treat him like he is a standard one position hockey player. he is as effective at lw as at rw. thats no standard. he is as effective at center as he is at wing. he is also as effective playing a 3rd line checking role as he is at a top 6 role.

in a salary cap world where depth is so hard to find, having a player that you can plug into any slot in the lineup except first pair defense or goalie is worth money.

most people just dismiss this, but i guarantee that his rare ability to give you grade b level performance left to right in the lineup and top to bottom, power play to penalty kill and 5 on 5 to 4 on 4 put as much as a full million extra on his contract. and its worth it

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02-14-2013, 05:18 PM
  #969
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i think too many look at the laich contract and treat him like he is a standard one position hockey player. he is as effective at lw as at rw. thats no standard. he is as effective at center as he is at wing. he is also as effective playing a 3rd line checking role as he is at a top 6 role.

in a salary cap world where depth is so hard to find, having a player that you can plug into any slot in the lineup except first pair defense or goalie is worth money.

most people just dismiss this, but i guarantee that his rare ability to give you grade b level performance left to right in the lineup and top to bottom, power play to penalty kill and 5 on 5 to 4 on 4 put as much as a full million extra on his contract. and its worth it
Except his "versatility" doesn't particularly help you win hockey games, which really all being "worth the money" comes down to.

Depth is hard to find if you suck at pro scouting. For more on this see Coyotes, Phoenix.

Also I don't recall him ever being used consistently on RW. But since he's the only person on the roster allowed to play every position I'm sure he can hold his own.

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02-14-2013, 05:28 PM
  #970
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i think too many look at the laich contract and treat him like he is a standard one position hockey player. he is as effective at lw as at rw. thats no standard. he is as effective at center as he is at wing. he is also as effective playing a 3rd line checking role as he is at a top 6 role.

in a salary cap world where depth is so hard to find, having a player that you can plug into any slot in the lineup except first pair defense or goalie is worth money.

most people just dismiss this, but i guarantee that his rare ability to give you grade b level performance left to right in the lineup and top to bottom, power play to penalty kill and 5 on 5 to 4 on 4 put as much as a full million extra on his contract. and its worth it
1. Laich sucks at center. He doesn't have the smarts to play there.
2. No player in the league is worth what Laich makes on the third line.
3. I've never been all that impressed with Laich on the PK. He's got that one video where he blocks shots with his hands but that's it.

Laich is worth his contract at one spot only. Top 6 lw getting lots of pp time. If you want a player to play grade b hockey anywhere in the lineup, sign Crabb for under a million.

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02-14-2013, 05:32 PM
  #971
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The biggest problem is his "nice guy" attitude permeates his game way too much.

He's obviously not squeamish, as he never hesitates to block shots, go in the corners or go to the net. But he wouldn't hurt a fly, even if the fly wears the opposite team's jersey. That's why he never seriously hits anybody and is probably the nicest dedicated screener an opposing goalie could ask for.

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02-14-2013, 05:33 PM
  #972
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1. Laich sucks at center. He doesn't have the smarts to play there.
2. No player in the league is worth what Laich makes on the third line.
3. I've never been all that impressed with Laich on the PK. He's got that one video where he blocks shots with his hands but that's it.

Laich is worth his contract at one spot only. Top 6 lw getting lots of pp time. If you want a player to play grade b hockey anywhere in the lineup, sign Crabb for under a million.
Agreed

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02-14-2013, 05:53 PM
  #973
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The new shiny toy - ROR!

A simple competent 3C/4C to replace MP will help Caps more than ROR with 5M salary. Not even talking about assets needed to trade for him.

We don't need him.


EDIT: B. Gordon? Regin? (both UFA) Idk

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02-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #974
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All those people could be replaced for 1/2 to 1/3 the price with minimal drop-off in the quality of the team.
you've been playing to much nhl13

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02-14-2013, 07:56 PM
  #975
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I'd do Johansson + Orlov for ROR.

With Caps comitting to Green for 3 yrs and with Green looking really good this year, Orlov isn't getting more than 3rd pair/2nd PP minutes with Green and Carlson ahead of him anyway.

Sign ROR for 4,5Mx5 yrs which fits under the cap for this year.

Trade Ribeiro at the deadline where he surely could fetch a 1st round pick and have ROR slotting in instead of him as 2C.

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