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2013 Ducks toughness thread (with updates)

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Old
05-14-2013, 03:33 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
shortened season if this was a full season this team may have finished 5-8th as down the stretch wasnt pretty. With that said he has 0% chance of even getting 1 nomination for that award
Uh... Dirk, you don't seem to be aware of how the awards work. He's a finalist, which means he is, at the very least, top 3. The voting is in, and he was considered one of the top 3 GM's for this season. That ship has sailed, buddy.

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05-14-2013, 03:37 PM
  #602
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Murray doesn't think an enforcer is needed but thought there should have been more "team toughness" regarding Stoll, Abdelkader.



and who exactly would he like to deal with those two?

Getzlaf? Beauchemin?
2 players we really need to log top minutes.
Beleskey? He can't do enough damage fighting to really make the other team pay. We need a true heavyweight goon. Someone who'll eat the fines, and suspensions to take an eye for an eye. datsyuk should've been feeling the pain for Lydman. quick for Fowler...etc. Other teams would be hesitant knowing that if they crossed the line with their 4th line plugs running our players, their stars, not the 4th line plug would be the target.

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05-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #603
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Enforcers are on the way out, and for good reason. They just don't provide enough.

And no player in this day and age is just willing to eat suspensions and fines. That's kind of ridiculous. That would jeopardize their career, and their financial future.

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05-14-2013, 03:46 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Papaspud View Post
Quote:
Murray doesn't think an enforcer is needed but thought there should have been more "team toughness" regarding Stoll, Abdelkader.



and who exactly would he like to deal with those two?

Getzlaf? Beauchemin?
2 players we really need to log top minutes.
Beleskey? He can't do enough damage fighting to really make the other team pay. We need a true heavyweight goon. Someone who'll eat the fines, and suspensions to take an eye for an eye. datsyuk should've been feeling the pain for Lydman. quick for Fowler...etc. Other teams would be hesitant knowing that if they crossed the line with their 4th line plugs running our players, their stars, not the 4th line plug would be the target.
He signed Maroon to a two-year, one-way extension. He also signed Laganiere and Kurtz in the last flurry of contract signings. I doubt we'll see Kurtz this year - still needs some work, and I have no idea about Laganiere since he hasn't played a pro game, but both of those guys have a hockey game to go with their fists.

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05-14-2013, 03:48 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Uh... Dirk, you don't seem to be aware of how the awards work. He's a finalist, which means he is, at the very least, top 3. The voting is in, and he was considered one of the top 3 GM's for this season. That ship has sailed, buddy.
i meant he will not get a vote against his competition i love how you give Murray credit but not Burke.

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05-14-2013, 03:52 PM
  #606
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i meant he will not get a vote against his competition i love how you give Murray credit but not Burke.
What am I failing to give Burke credit for? For GM'ing our team to the Cup? I have. For making the big moves that needed to be done? I have. For building a Cup team? No, I haven't, because that isn't what he did. Look at the players he brought in, and look at the players that were already here. Burke came to Anaheim in an ideal situation, and he made some truly great moves, but let's not pretend he built the team from scratch or even close to it.

You can't make a claim that he won't get a vote against his competition without sticking your foot in your mouth. If that's the way you want to go, okay, but since you actually have no idea at all...

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05-14-2013, 04:05 PM
  #607
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What am I failing to give Burke credit for? For GM'ing our team to the Cup? I have. For making the big moves that needed to be done? I have. For building a Cup team? No, I haven't, because that isn't what he did. Look at the players he brought in, and look at the players that were already here. Burke came to Anaheim in an ideal situation, and he made some truly great moves, but let's not pretend he built the team from scratch or even close to it.

You can't make a claim that he won't get a vote against his competition without sticking your foot in your mouth. If that's the way you want to go, okay, but since you actually have no idea at all...
No gm its pretty hard to build an entire team from scratch thatsl takes years a good gm finds their teams weakness and fixes it
BM has had weaknesses every year hes been a gm and has half ass patched them
Hes had low draft picks and multiple draft picks because his teams have sucked and he trades stars
Thats very easy for a gm to do
I

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05-14-2013, 04:18 PM
  #608
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Uh, what? Murray has had low draft picks? Which stars has he traded, btw? You seem very critical of him, yet you're exaggerating everything negative about him. It sounds like you're trying to imply that Murray doesn't deserve props for building one of the best prospect pools in the NHL.

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05-14-2013, 04:39 PM
  #609
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Uh, what? Murray has had low draft picks? Which stars has he traded, btw? You seem very critical of him, yet you're exaggerating everything negative about him. It sounds like you're trying to imply that Murray doesn't deserve props for building one of the best prospect pools in the NHL.
Year after year he fails to addres holes
He does not have anything to do with who is drafted other than a sign off

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05-14-2013, 04:40 PM
  #610
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Last I checked Pronger was a star when he played

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05-14-2013, 06:32 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
What am I failing to give Burke credit for? For GM'ing our team to the Cup? I have. For making the big moves that needed to be done? I have. For building a Cup team? No, I haven't, because that isn't what he did. Look at the players he brought in, and look at the players that were already here. Burke came to Anaheim in an ideal situation, and he made some truly great moves, but let's not pretend he built the team from scratch or even close to it.
How many GMs do build their teams from scratch? They all get the leftovers from their old GMs. Last time I checked Vancouver's key players are still the Sedin's and Kesler who Burke drafted. Toronto just made the playoffs on Burke's roster. We still have guys from Brian Murray that are playing for us.

I'm not trying to get into this argument again but Burke left us plenty of assets when he left. The prospect pool was a bit bare but no where near as bad as it has been made out to be - but more importantly we had actual in their prime NHL assets at Murray's disposal.

Also he brought in a ton of the pieces that were on the cup team. The entire defense was Burke's - Niedermayer, Pronger, O'Donnell, Beauchemin - all Burke transactions. Selanne, Moen, Marchant were all guys Burke brought in as well. He may not have built the team from scratch but how many GMs do?

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05-14-2013, 06:40 PM
  #612
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Last I checked Pronger was a star when he played
Chris Pronger wanted a retirement contract, and Anaheim couldn't give it to him. He was moved because it was better to get something for him while he held a fair bit of value instead of losing him for nothing. I'd hardly consider that a knock against Murray, especially when you see how it turned out for Philadelphia.

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05-14-2013, 06:59 PM
  #613
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How many GMs do build their teams from scratch? They all get the leftovers from their old GMs. Last time I checked Vancouver's key players are still the Sedin's and Kesler who Burke drafted. Toronto just made the playoffs on Burke's roster. We still have guys from Brian Murray that are playing for us.

I'm not trying to get into this argument again but Burke left us plenty of assets when he left. The prospect pool was a bit bare but no where near as bad as it has been made out to be - but more importantly we had actual in their prime NHL assets at Murray's disposal.

Also he brought in a ton of the pieces that were on the cup team. The entire defense was Burke's - Niedermayer, Pronger, O'Donnell, Beauchemin - all Burke transactions. Selanne, Moen, Marchant were all guys Burke brought in as well. He may not have built the team from scratch but how many GMs do?
I have a hard time giving Burke credit for Selanne, because this was where Selanne wanted to be. Everyone else, I'll give you that. Niedermayer and Pronger were a bit fortuitous, as we already had Rob(who Burke re-signed) and Pronger was picked up with draft picks and young players/prospects who were here prior to Burke from a very desperate Edmonton team who were forced into that situation. That being said, those are the trades/signing I look at as the right moves from Burke.

Beauchemin, while he was brought in under Burke's regime, was not a Burke addition. Unless I'm mistaken it was Murray who wanted him(or was it McNab?), and Burke knew very little about him. That was all about getting rid of Fedorov's horrible contract, which was also a good move from Burke.

The biggest problem I have with Burke is how he left. Not that he went to Toronto, because for him that was just business, and it was a great opportunity. That I have no problem with. My issue is that I didn't think we drafted particularly well during his time here, and after the 2007 Cup the decisions he made seemed to go down hill, and Murray had a lot of cleanup work to do. There was still talent on the team, but certain players were on their way out and there was a need for some player turnover.

I do give Burke a lot of credit, but he came into a pretty ideal scenario, and during a time where a new voice and a new driver was exactly what this team needed. Now? I think putting someone new into the driver's seat would be counterproductive. This team is on the right track, and I think certain people just want Burke back because they think he can take us back to the 2007 team somehow, however unrealistic and unlikely that is. This is Murray's team right now, and I don't see a good reason to change that. Basically, I think Dirk wants Burke back because of "toughness" and his own beliefs that it would be the difference between winning and losing. I don't share that belief. I think this team can get a little tougher, while keeping most of what they have. I think Dirk would want significant changes, to get that big bruising team he dreams of, and frankly, I think he's living in the past.

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05-14-2013, 07:05 PM
  #614
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The only way this team gets significantly tougher is if Ryan and Selanne are no longer with the team so that they can get Etem and Palmieri off the 4th line full time. Those guys aren't going to sit for a grinder.

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07-01-2013, 11:36 PM
  #615
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Part of me thinks Murray should have gone and got Clutterbuck. He would help with the physical play that we've been lacking the last couple years. Could have given DSP +2nd for him, or something around that. I just don't want 2 c this team get pushed around because of the lack of a physical tone being set on the 4th line. BB needs to get me some enforcers so our stars stop getting cheapshotted. What do you guys think about making a trade for Brian McGrattan? What a warrior that guy is.

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07-01-2013, 11:40 PM
  #616
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McGratton would be perfect in Staubitz's role. But we already have Staubitz so unless anyone else wanted him he'd be redundant.

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07-01-2013, 11:44 PM
  #617
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Part of me thinks Murray should have gone and got Clutterbuck. He would help with the physical play that we've been lacking the last couple years. Could have given DSP +2nd for him, or something around that. I just don't want 2 c this team get pushed around because of the lack of a physical tone being set on the 4th line. BB needs to get me some enforcers so our stars stop getting cheapshotted. What do you guys think about making a trade for Brian McGrattan? What a warrior that guy is.
A trade would be horrible. He's a UFA.

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07-01-2013, 11:54 PM
  #618
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A trade would be horrible. He's a UFA.
Yes, but he's only 25 and can be re-signed as a permanent presence on our 4th line with Beleskey or Maroon on the other wing.

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07-02-2013, 12:13 AM
  #619
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It's hard to attract and keep good 4th liners to Anaheim - its one of the biggest tax hit franchises in the league, with one of the highest cost of livings. Guys not making a lot of money (4th liners) do better elsewhere, so I'd be afraid of trading for a UFA, especially with the cap crunch we have.

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07-02-2013, 05:50 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Part of me thinks Murray should have gone and got Clutterbuck. He would help with the physical play that we've been lacking the last couple years. Could have given DSP +2nd for him, or something around that. I just don't want 2 c this team get pushed around because of the lack of a physical tone being set on the 4th line. BB needs to get me some enforcers so our stars stop getting cheapshotted. What do you guys think about making a trade for Brian McGrattan? What a warrior that guy is.
Only problem being we don't have room for Clutterbuck unless we get rid of one of Cogs or Winnik.

McGrattan as a 4th liner / 13th forward would be good, still think we should of kept him instead of Parros a couple of years back.

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07-02-2013, 08:35 AM
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Part of me thinks Murray should have gone and got Clutterbuck. He would help with the physical play that we've been lacking the last couple years. Could have given DSP +2nd for him, or something around that. I just don't want 2 c this team get pushed around because of the lack of a physical tone being set on the 4th line. BB needs to get me some enforcers so our stars stop getting cheapshotted. What do you guys think about making a trade for Brian McGrattan? What a warrior that guy is.
Would you be prepared to give up Holland and a 3rd for a guy who you want on the 4th line? Because that is essentially what it would have taken. Certainly you can find toughness without giving up those assets. And Clutterbuck isn't a guy who would stop cheap shots she is just a guy who throws the body around.

Once I saw the return no way it made sense to try and make a deal for Clutterbuck especially when Murray seems very happy with the current third line.

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07-02-2013, 08:46 AM
  #622
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Would you be prepared to give up Holland and a 3rd for a guy who you want on the 4th line? Because that is essentially what it would have taken.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it would have taken more. The Isles don't lack centers, and Nino is still regarded very highly by many. I don't see how we could have beat that offer.

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Certainly you can find toughness without giving up those assets. And Clutterbuck isn't a guy who would stop cheap shots she is just a guy who throws the body around.
Cal is not going to like to hear that.

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07-02-2013, 10:20 AM
  #623
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Toughness is a difficult topic IMO. The problem is Murray didn't move ANYONE out. He promised changes and unless he clears some people out, they can't be made. Assuming all our main rfas are brought back and Koivu is re-signed, our lineup should be:

Palmieri-Getzlaf-Perry
Ryan-Bonino-Etem
Cogliano-Koivu-Winnik
Beleskey-Holland-Maroon
Staubitz

Souray-Beauchemin
Fowler-Lovejoy
Sbisa-Allen

Hiller
Fasth

Almost identical. Not sure about you guys but when Murray promised changes, I did not expect it to just be not re-signing Lydman and Selanne retiring.

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07-02-2013, 10:22 AM
  #624
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Almost identical. Not sure about you guys but when Murray promised changes, I did not expect it to just be not re-signing Lydman and Selanne retiring.
I dunno, I might give him at least till the 2nd week of July till I get my pitchfork out

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07-02-2013, 10:55 AM
  #625
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Yes, but he's only 25 and can be re-signed as a permanent presence on our 4th line with Beleskey or Maroon on the other wing.
Sorry, I was talking about McGrattan (31) who is a UFA not Clutterbuck. Isn't he the kind of player that DSP was expected/hoped to become. Could still be it for us.

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Almost identical. Not sure about you guys but when Murray promised changes, I did not expect it to just be not re-signing Lydman and Selanne retiring.
This is tough, and I said so early. This FA is going to be ridiculously expensive.
Bickell who's best season (expanded to 82 games) is 46 ish points getting 4m.

At this point, keeping the team that finished 2nd, and banking on a mid season trade/ rookies continuing the growth from last season that may fill some holes.

The Ducks don't have a heavy weight fighter, but have guys who will drop the gloves, Beleskey/Maroon/DSP (if he bounces back), Staubitz can fill out a hard checking role for cheaper. If it doesn't work out a midseason trade be more affordable then the FA frenzy.

This team have so many unknown factors that could make a difference this year, Vatanen, Lindholm, DSP, Karlsson, Lagauinaire, Holland, Cramarossa. Having a preseason last year would have really helped this year, but all these players that have a chance are probably making it hard for BM see next years roster before some of them get atleast a couple pro games.

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