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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:31 PM
  #251
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Again, Roddy, if it were JUST 4 games or JUST 4 games and the loss to Philly, then I don't think the reaction would be what it is. But, this is 25 or so games and a lot of the the factors date back well before that.

BTW, Sid and Geno haven't gone rogue in a sensationalist way, but they've definitely been playing outside the system. Either they don't want to listen OR they're absent-minded OR they're trying to overcompensate for the competitive disadvantage at which they feel placed by the coaching staff.

I've seen this play before with Therrien. There's no nefarious reason for it. Team is winning in spite of the bad trends (like late November 2008 and like last year leading into the playoffs), and some people (like me) sound alarm bells while others say 'we're still winning' and 'he got us to the finals just a few months ago'.

Thing is, either a coach nips it in the rear or risks losing the team. Therrien didn't nip it in the rear. Bylsma, as evidenced the last few games last season, against Philly, and then with the 2-2 record, clearly hasn't either.

I hope he's got an ace up his sleeve. I'll be happy to embrace any positive sign today, starting with his lineup card. Strike that, I'll have to see if there's any game planning and adjustments.
Of course, that didn't just happen out of the blue, did it?

Sid came back from an extended absence and subconsciously or not, the team cut corners because it thought it could win on offense alone. It's a natural reaction, as much as I'm sure they tried to guard against it.

It's a new season now. I wouldn't interpret some sloppy play in a rushed opening week as indicative as anything other than what it is.

Let's see if we're in the same place by the end of next month after everyone's tuned up. I don't think we will be.

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01-27-2013, 12:37 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Of course, that didn't just happen out of the blue, did it?

Sid came back from an extended absence and subconsciously or not, the team cut corners because it thought it could win on offense alone. It's a natural reaction, as much as I'm sure they tried to guard against it.

It's a new season now. I wouldn't interpret some sloppy play in a rushed opening week as indicative as anything other than what it is.

Let's see if we're in the same place by the end of next month after everyone's tuned up. I don't think we will be.
I hope you're right that the flip can be switched back (or, per my metaphor, the pendulum can be swung back). I'll say again: It's tough, and far better a coach than Bylsma has proven unable to do it. I also hope people aren't going to be confusing record for how the team looks for when the playoffs come, like last year and like 2010.

Anyway, I think it's been a pretty good discussion here, very civil on a typically sensitive subject. In a lot of cases, I even think folks on different 'sides' are agreeing about what we see, and the questions are a lot more about significance, timing, and past mitigating factors.

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01-27-2013, 12:50 PM
  #253
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This team in particular has a set up you can't hold to all others.

This team has two well above average 1st lines. Most teams have one and then drop off in talent. The Pens drop off starts at line #3. You want those two lines going full force for offense, leaving, lines #3 and #4 to do the majority of the structure onus. This team needs all hands to take to structure first and then open up for offense when dominance has been achieved on the ice and the score board. DB's biggest flaw was unleashing the hounds before that structure could take hold.

Offense doesn't equal defense until a lead has been cemented/created. Only then will more offense will lead to good defense. You're up 2-0/3-0/4-0, you don't let off the gas for obvious reasons as too not let the opponent life to regroup and mount a sizable comeback which every single team does, but the great ones minimize those.

Great players need to play in all situations. With the right structure and obedience too said structure this team could outright slaughter this league. All it requires is that Obedience and depth. This team has neither, at least not the right depth that wins you well into, June.

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01-27-2013, 12:53 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I hope you're right that the flip can be switched back (or, per my metaphor, the pendulum can be swung back). I'll say again: It's tough, and far better a coach than Bylsma has proven unable to do it. I also hope people aren't going to be confusing record for how the team looks for when the playoffs come, like last year and like 2010.

Anyway, I think it's been a pretty good discussion here, very civil on a typically sensitive subject. In a lot of cases, I even think folks on different 'sides' are agreeing about what we see, and the questions are a lot more about significance, timing, and past mitigating factors.
Yep, for sure. We're seeing the same things going on now for the most part, just weighting their significance differently.

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01-27-2013, 12:58 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
This team in particular has a set up you can't hold to all others.

This team has two well above average 1st lines. Most teams have one and then drop off in talent. The Pens drop off starts at line #3. You want those two lines going full force for offense, leaving, lines #3 and #4 to do the majority of the structure onus. This team needs all hands to take to structure first and then open up for offense when dominance has been achieved on the ice and the score board. DB's biggest flaw was unleashing the hounds before that structure could take hold.

Offense doesn't equal defense until a lead has been cemented/created. Only then will more offense will lead to good defense. You're up 2-0/3-0/4-0, you don't let off the gas for obvious reasons as too not let the opponent life to regroup and mount a sizable comeback which every single team does, but the great ones minimize those.

Great players need to play in all situations. With the right structure and obedience too said structure this team could outright slaughter this league. All it requires is that Obedience and depth. This team has neither, at least not the right depth that wins you well into, June.
Yep, and let this be said again: Shero should not escape blame here. We can question the horses Bylsma chooses to use and how he uses them (and rightfully so), but Shero is to blame for the suspect collection of choices.

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01-27-2013, 01:55 PM
  #256
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If I'm reading this right, then what Bylsma does as a coach doesn't matter at all. Win or lose, it's ALL on the players.
You didn't read it right then. Since we are perennially successful in the regular season, i'm saying there are so many factors that can affect whether we advance in the playoffs, completely independent of coaching. Those factors that contributed to our being knocked out in the past few years are pretty obvious. Certainly the coach should be held accountable to some degree, but people are looking at results without considering the circumstances, or exaggerating Bylsma's fault. This is pretty much the gist of what everyone is saying in response to Bylsma's critics.

By its nature alone, the playoffs is something of a crapshoot, whereas Bylsma's regular season success and Stanley Cup ring suggests that he is doing the right things. This is magnified when you look at the way we lost those playoff series.

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01-27-2013, 01:58 PM
  #257
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You didn't read it right then. Since we are perennially successful in the regular season, i'm saying there are so many factors that can affect whether we advance in the playoffs, completely independent of coaching. Those factors that contributed to our being knocked out in the past few years are pretty obvious. Certainly the coach should be held accountable to some degree, but people are looking at results without considering the circumstances, or exaggerating Bylsma's fault. This is pretty much the gist of what everyone is saying in response to Bylsma's critics.
Actually, everyone IS aware of the extenuating circumstances. Otherwise, this thread about Bylsma's abilities as a coach against teams that game plan and adjust (playoffs and select regular season games) would have popped up about 18 months earlier.

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01-27-2013, 04:06 PM
  #258
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Do you guys know if Vokoun will get a good amount of starts this season?? I'm thinking about picking him up in fantasy.

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01-27-2013, 05:55 PM
  #259
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This is very true and the Pens always seem to slump before hitting their stride.

The thing is that some of us have been seeing holes in Disco's system for the past few years. To be honest its been since Tony G came. Its the same things over and over again. It used to get picked apart by Hitch, Lavs and Lemaire but now its getting picked apart by Claude Noel. Full respect to Noel when I say that but he's not Hitch or Lemaire.
Not sure why you're bringing up Hitchcock, how many times have him and Bylsma even faced off? As for Laviolette, he's had Bylsma's numbers as of late much in the way Tortorella has had Laviolette's, or Bylsma Tortorella's number. It doesn't mean as much as you think.

All due respect to Noel, I wouldn't say he was outcoaching Bylsma. The Penguins just weren't executing. They've looked rather sloppy so far this season like many other teams. People are seriously underestimating what it means to not have a full offseason / training camp. Right now the Penguins are struggling to make the most basic of plays, fumbling tape to tape passes on the regular and turning the puck over with no pressure from the opposition. It's going to take time before they're executing at the level they're capable of. Last year Bylsma outscored Noel's squad by 9 goals in 4 games, I'm not exactly worried that he's spent the abbreviated offseason trying to figure out how to beat the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Look, you don't have the success the Penguins have had over the past few years with all of these injuries by being outcoached on a consistent basis. You don't lead the league in winning percentage when trailing after two periods by not knowing how to adjust, nor do you regularly finish among the league leaders in winning percentage when leading after two if you don't know how to play with a lead. Anybody with the right agenda who wants to put something under a microscope can distort reality, and if you hang around these forums enough you're bound to get swept up by the groupthink eventually.

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01-27-2013, 07:01 PM
  #260
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Not sure why you're bringing up Hitchcock, how many times have him and Bylsma even faced off? As for Laviolette, he's had Bylsma's numbers as of late much in the way Tortorella has had Laviolette's, or Bylsma Tortorella's number. It doesn't mean as much as you think.

All due respect to Noel, I wouldn't say he was outcoaching Bylsma. The Penguins just weren't executing. They've looked rather sloppy so far this season like many other teams. People are seriously underestimating what it means to not have a full offseason / training camp. Right now the Penguins are struggling to make the most basic of plays, fumbling tape to tape passes on the regular and turning the puck over with no pressure from the opposition. It's going to take time before they're executing at the level they're capable of. Last year Bylsma outscored Noel's squad by 9 goals in 4 games, I'm not exactly worried that he's spent the abbreviated offseason trying to figure out how to beat the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Look, you don't have the success the Penguins have had over the past few years with all of these injuries by being outcoached on a consistent basis. You don't lead the league in winning percentage when trailing after two periods by not knowing how to adjust, nor do you regularly finish among the league leaders in winning percentage when leading after two if you don't know how to play with a lead. Anybody with the right agenda who wants to put something under a microscope can distort reality, and if you hang around these forums enough you're bound to get swept up by the groupthink eventually.
Actually, several Jets fans were pretty honest after that game in admitting that Noel completely adjusted the Jets defensive scheme to take away the Penguins stretch passes.

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01-27-2013, 07:02 PM
  #261
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For now, I'd just like an assistant worth his weight on the defensive side of things. Bylsma makes me angry sometimes, but when it comes down to it, he is still better than anyone available at the moment.

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01-27-2013, 07:03 PM
  #262
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I'd appreciate thoughts from Cole, Jiggy, et al about what the Pens were doing systemically tonight, any adjustments made, etc.

I was trying to discern things, and it just looked awfully sloppy to me whatever the Pens were doing (thankfully, the Sens were with them step for step in that regard).

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01-27-2013, 07:04 PM
  #263
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I'd appreciate thoughts from Cole, Jiggy, et al about what the Pens were doing systemically tonight, any adjustments made, etc.

I was trying to discern things, and it just looked awfully sloppy to me whatever the Pens were doing (thankfully, the Sens were with them step for step in that regard).
breakouts were better (no stretch), they clogged the net area (defensively) and Fleury bailed them out.

(I'm neither Cole nor Jiggy, nor do I understand hockey, nor did I stay at a holiday inn express)

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01-27-2013, 07:05 PM
  #264
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After watching today's game and seeing what "65 minutes of effort" gets us, it's pretty clear to me Blysma's system is not working on the offensive size of the puck. It absolutely kills our top players' creativity, and it's predictable from blue line to blue line.

More ******, forced passes tonight... more cases of guys who should never be carrying the puck in (Neal, Kunitz) occasionally trying to carry the puck in... continued lack of quality chances... and how many times in the last 3 games have we really controlled the puck in the offensive zone for a full shift? Twice? I'm glad we reduced the number of bad giveaways (there were still too many) and that we won, but we're not winning a Cup with this system this year.

Either Bylsma's system has to go or he has to go. Yah we won the shootout and that's great, and our D was better (and Flower was better) but offensively this team is really frustrating to watch. It is a system built for mediocre players, not generational talents.

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01-27-2013, 07:05 PM
  #265
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It's encouraging that he can get the players to do what he wants. He wants them to come back for the break out they do it.

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01-27-2013, 07:08 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
breakouts were better (no stretch), they clogged the net area (defensively) and Fleury bailed them out.

(I'm neither Cole nor Jiggy, nor do I understand hockey, nor did I stay at a holiday inn express)
Our forwards were backed up and helped with every breakout. Defensive pairs were playing less man-to-man.


Malkin might have had his best 2-way game since 2010. It was nice to see everyone pitching it.

Conversely, during the Jets game, all we were trying to do was stretch the defense and it got broken up. The forwards wouldn't backcheck.

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01-27-2013, 07:08 PM
  #267
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It's encouraging that he can get the players to do what he wants. He wants them to come back for the break out they do it.
If that's our standard for "good coaching", we're in trouble. It is encouraging, but not nearly sufficient.

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01-27-2013, 07:12 PM
  #268
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Most the defensive issues tonight were caused by Malkin, Lovejoy, & Kunitz. Not Bylsma's system. The best thing he can do is get rid of that stretch pass for a structured break out.

Offensively there wasn't a lot of creativity. Once again we are relying on Crosby, Malkin, & Neal to do everything. We lost a lot of offense with Staal & Letang & Kunitz have struggled.

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01-27-2013, 07:13 PM
  #269
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After watching today's game and seeing what "65 minutes of effort" gets us, it's pretty clear to me Blysma's system is not working on the offensive size of the puck. It absolutely kills our top players' creativity, and it's predictable from blue line to blue line.

More ******, forced passes tonight... more cases of guys who should never be carrying the puck in (Neal, Kunitz) occasionally trying to carry the puck in... continued lack of quality chances... and how many times in the last 3 games have we really controlled the puck in the offensive zone for a full shift? Twice? I'm glad we reduced the number of bad giveaways (there were still too many) and that we won, but we're not winning a Cup with this system this year.

Either Bylsma's system has to go or he has to go. Yah we won the shootout and that's great, and our D was better (and Flower was better) but offensively this team is really frustrating to watch. It is a system built for mediocre players, not generational talents.
CV, here's one new thing that really concerns me now:

In December 2008, when the wheels started to come off for Therrien, you saw it with Sid. A lack of control (spears to the nuts, etc), really reckless play, barking at people, etc. That's when I thought that Therrien was in real jeopardy of losing Sid. By that, I don't mean Sid stopped giving a ****. I mean, he wasn't buying. System and linemates put him at a competitive disadvantage too much, and things just spiraled out of control.

I was reminded of that watching Geno the first two periods. I've seen him emotional. I've seen him frustrated. I've seen him reckless. But, he really looked like he was ready to go over the edge. Thankfully, he reeled it back in for the third (it looked like Glass actually helped stabilize things a little in that regard), and the SO winner probably helped. That said, it's a situation that bears watching. Dave King always said that he liked Malkin because he always was smiling, and you could tell something was wrong when he wasn't. Malkin isn't smiling right now. Maybe it's nothing. Then again, people said the same thing about Sid's frustrations bubbling a little over four years ago.

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01-27-2013, 07:14 PM
  #270
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Our forwards were backed up and helped with every breakout. Defensive pairs were playing less man-to-man.


Malkin might have had his best 2-way game since 2010. It was nice to see everyone pitching it.

Conversely, during the Jets game, all we were trying to do was stretch the defense and it got broken up. The forwards wouldn't backcheck.
I think Malkin's two way play was exceptional in the third but not the previous two periods. But, yes, it looked like the forwards were coming back for the breakout after a period and a half of forcing those stretch passes.

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01-27-2013, 07:16 PM
  #271
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If that's our standard for "good coaching", we're in trouble. It is encouraging, but not nearly sufficient.
CV, if Karlsson plays his normal offensive game, then this one doesn't go to OT. Passes off. Shots he buries off. Receiving passes go off his stick. IMO, Ottawa was not crisp tonight, not even close. If they had been, then the Pens lose in regulation, and it's really not that close.

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01-27-2013, 07:18 PM
  #272
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Actually, several Jets fans were pretty honest after that game in admitting that Noel completely adjusted the Jets defensive scheme to take away the Penguins stretch passes.
They adoped a similar strategy in their 2-1 win early last season. Didn't stop them from getting outscored by 10 goals in their next three contests.

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01-27-2013, 07:19 PM
  #273
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CV, here's one new thing that really concerns me now:

In December 2008, when the wheels started to come off for Therrien, you saw it with Sid. A lack of control (spears to the nuts, etc), really reckless play, barking at people, etc. That's when I thought that Therrien was in real jeopardy of losing Sid. By that, I don't mean Sid stopped giving a ****. I mean, he wasn't buying. System and linemates put him at a competitive disadvantage too much, and things just spiraled out of control.

I was reminded of that watching Geno the first two periods. I've seen him emotional. I've seen him frustrated. I've seen him reckless. But, he really looked like he was ready to go over the edge. Thankfully, he reeled it back in for the third (it looked like Glass actually helped stabilize things a little in that regard), and the SO winner probably helped. That said, it's a situation that bears watching. Dave King always said that he liked Malkin because he always was smiling, and you could tell something was wrong when he wasn't. Malkin isn't smiling right now. Maybe it's nothing. Then again, people said the same thing about Sid's frustrations bubbling a little over four years ago.
That's actually a pretty good observation IMO (how player behavior changes in bad coaching situations because of persistently frustrating situations they perceive themselves to be stuck in). Maybe with Geno, the free flowing nature of the KHL resulted in culture shock when he came back... hopefully that's all it is for his part but the problem with games like this is it serves to reinforce Bylsma's system in his own mind. He probably looked at tonight and said "it's working again, back on track". I looked at it and said "we won despite the system, because we have great shoot-out talent and a goalie who played a great game".

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01-27-2013, 07:20 PM
  #274
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CV, if Karlsson plays his normal offensive game, then this one doesn't go to OT. Passes off. Shots he buries off. Receiving passes go off his stick. IMO, Ottawa was not crisp tonight, not even close. If they had been, then the Pens lose in regulation, and it's really not that close.
We were damn lucky he didn't score on that last shot which he had wide open. I agree 100% the Sens were not in good form tonight. But they had way more quality chances and open shots than we did and that's what bugs me most. That shouldn't be...

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01-27-2013, 07:25 PM
  #275
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CV, if Karlsson plays his normal offensive game, then this one doesn't go to OT. Passes off. Shots he buries off. Receiving passes go off his stick. IMO, Ottawa was not crisp tonight, not even close. If they had been, then the Pens lose in regulation, and it's really not that close.
So if Ottawa was in form, which they weren't for the same reasons as us, we would lose? Hardly a revelation.

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