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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-28-2013, 03:57 PM
  #326
billybudd
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He had two bad turnovers last night again. Once trying to stickhandle through three guys at the top of the blueline
That one was especially brainless.

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01-28-2013, 04:07 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. Yes, I absolutely think Bylsma's defensive expectations for Malkin are different than any other coach he's played for or what they'd be with 90% of the teams in the league. It speaks to coaches keeping players accountable.

2. I'm glad that Sid and Geno like Bylsma. I'm sure they like him every day of the year but one. Scotty Bowman's players used to say the opposite about him.

3. Yes, I'm glad Bylsma is a good coach. Lots of good coaches both in and out of the league. Is he the right one because he's a good one? Ken Hitchcock, IMO, is a good coach. He's been the right one in three places, and then the wrong one in two of them (he'll one day be the wrong one in STL too). I trust that isn't too complex to follow.
Bold 1 -Once again, Geno doesn't have a different defensive responsibility than any of our other centers. Is that responsibility a little different than under Therrien? the answer is not that much.

Bold 2 -As for Scotty Bowman, there is a reason that he didn't last that long here (Mario). Also why Therrien was let go after going to a cup final (Sid and Geno)

Bold 3 - So if a coach doesn't win a cup basically every so many years, that means he is the wrong coach for that team. Well I guess every year 29 teams managed to keep the wrong coach on their bench. I think you have very little knowledge of just how difficult winning the cup can be. We are very spoiled here due to past success. Hitchcock may never win in St Louis, but it doesn't mean that he was the wrong coach. Way too many other variables like PLAYERS, and injuries to players, and running into a hot goalie in the playoffs, etc, etc. If you have a coach that knows the game, can teach the game/system to his team, and the team plays hard for that coach, that coach is the right coach regardless if you win the cup or not.

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01-28-2013, 04:11 PM
  #328
Darth Vitale
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If Hitchcock doesn't win in STL, I blame Stewart. Now he's just 212 pounds of Locker Room Cancer instead of 232 pounds.

But seriously I do not want to pay any kind of big price for that guy. He'll just end up playing 9 minutes a game on the 3rd line under Bylsma.

I've got it. We all need to get this anti-Bylsma venom out of our system. This is just post-lockout anger transference. It's too early to be anti-Bylsma; wait till he leads the team to a 5 seed and 1st round exit. For now, we'll get all our angst out by declaring this Bash Bylsma Week... thereafter no longer feeling the need to bash Disco Dan or his methods or madness.

Who's in?

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01-28-2013, 04:33 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Bold 1 -Once again, Geno doesn't have a different defensive responsibility than any of our other centers. Is that responsibility a little different than under Therrien? the answer is not that much.

Bold 2 -As for Scotty Bowman, there is a reason that he didn't last that long here (Mario). Also why Therrien was let go after going to a cup final (Sid and Geno)

Bold 3 - So if a coach doesn't win a cup basically every so many years, that means he is the wrong coach for that team. Well I guess every year 29 teams managed to keep the wrong coach on their bench. I think you have very little knowledge of just how difficult winning the cup can be. We are very spoiled here due to past success. Hitchcock may never win in St Louis, but it doesn't mean that he was the wrong coach. Way too many other variables like PLAYERS, and injuries to players, and running into a hot goalie in the playoffs, etc, etc. If you have a coach that knows the game, can teach the game/system to his team, and the team plays hard for that coach, that coach is the right coach regardless if you win the cup or not.
Hence my Babcock argument earlier. I was being sarcastic, but looking back on it, it's very relevant.

He has 1 Stanley Cup since the lockout. With a much more well rounded roster than the Penguins have had, you could argue that the Wings have been underachievers in the playoffs.

Two exits to Perennial chokers the Sharks, and losing last year to a Nashville team that always struggles to score goals.

So much of what goes on in the playoffs teeters on the edge of a knife. A bounce here, a save there, can change your fortunes from an early first round exit to a Stanley Cup win.

Boston winning a couple of years ago is a prime example of this. Julien looked like he was going to be fired about 5 different times that spring.

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01-28-2013, 04:53 PM
  #330
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
The problem is Jiggy, you and I both know what happens when you start benching vets. THAT is when the room starts turning on you, especially when as a "vet" you've earned the benefit of the doubt of more than a handful of games, especially under some very unique circumstances with the late start and no training camp.
If this was exclusive to this season I'd agree, but it has been going on since late last season and right into the playoffs. It isn't unreasonable for a coach to ask his players to be accountable for their mistakes. Why should you get more ice time when you are hurting the team?

If you are a multiple offender, your ass needs to be losing shifts, period. This isn't killing ice time because of a slump like Neal had two years ago. These are mistakes that are leading to Ls. It isn't as if DB hasn't pointed out the mistakes...yet they are STILL happening.

Now its time to be a disciplinarian and get your point across with reduced ice time.

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01-28-2013, 05:09 PM
  #331
billybudd
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Hence my Babcock argument earlier. I was being sarcastic, but looking back on it, it's very relevant.

He has 1 Stanley Cup since the lockout. With a much more well rounded roster than the Penguins have had, you could argue that the Wings have been underachievers in the playoffs.

Two exits to Perennial chokers the Sharks, and losing last year to a Nashville team that always struggles to score goals.

So much of what goes on in the playoffs teeters on the edge of a knife. A bounce here, a save there, can change your fortunes from an early first round exit to a Stanley Cup win.

Boston winning a couple of years ago is a prime example of this. Julien looked like he was going to be fired about 5 different times that spring.
I don't think the Red Wings have been more well-rounded than the Penguins at all. Outside of Helm and, arguably, Cleary, the bottom half of their forward roster has long been awful (Drew Miller...Patrick Eaves...these aren't players that actually do anything...I guess Abdelkaider dives well...Miller kills penalties ok).

They've never had a better-than-putrid third defensive pairing (Engelland + somebody who isn't lovejoy > Lebda and Lilja). Other than Lidstrom and Stuart, who are both gone, Detroit has long been awful at defending the cycle. The lineup is among the softest in the league at every position and has been forever. And let's not forget signing Derian Hatcher to a long-term deal then having to buy him out almost immediately because he was a washed up dirtbag.

Hell, this season, Pittsburgh has four defensemen who would crack babcock's top pairing and I don't think Pittsburgh's D is particularly strong.

While he certainly drafted well around the turn of the millenium and picked up Hossa one year at cost, I think there's a better case to be made for Holland mismanaging his roster than there is for Shero.

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01-28-2013, 05:14 PM
  #332
gopens66
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

It's like a virus when you keep letting this happen without accountability. Last night it was Neal, Sutter and Kunitz... Before that it was Cooke and Kunitz... etc. etc. Worst of all, Malkin and Crosby are turnover machines.

It's a troubling pattern affecting the entire team. No system is designed to account for this many turnovers. DB needs to start sending a message about accountability and that puck mismanagement won't be tolerated. Kunitz is an ideal guy to make his first example out of.
I think his so-called system is the underlying problem for the turnovers. Throw in the "rust" or lack of training camp or whatever and it's exponentially worse now.

This "go North fast" system has been figured out by most teams we play now.

There is nothing............nothing..............systematic ally similar to what made the Penguins great in 08 or 09. Even the less than tactical observer can see the difference.

Tactically, what we see now resembles nothing to what made the team successful then.

Forecheck- different- almost non-existent right now
Defensive zone coverage- zone vs man2man talked about ad naseum
Breakout-throw it long somebody tip it on the way by- chase------really?
O-zone entry- laughable, absolutely laughable, has been for a few seasons
Powerplay- see above

Grinding *****es down was about cycling in their zone to keep their top lines pinned, effectively neutralizing them.

Most of the turnovers I've seen were bad decisions by the players, but many of them the player passing the puck is under duress with no real options. Obviously, some were not this case and just terrible decisions by the player. But many times it seems there are no options to the puck carrier on the breakout, zone entry, and in the o-zone. That screams of systemic issues.

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01-28-2013, 05:17 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I like Kunitz, always have, but he is hurting the team. I don't expect guys like him to be sources of offense every night, so if he struggles like he is doing now, I'm ok with it. However, it is the mental mistakes he is making that need to stop.

He had two bad turnovers last night again. Once trying to stickhandle through three guys at the top of the blueline.... He had two boarding penalties in the same game (Tor) on the same damn guy. Seriously? Those kind of penalties can't happen. Then you combine all of the coverage mistakes, turnovers AND lack of offense, yet he never sits out a shift.

If Vitale played like that, Jeffrey would be back in and not a single person can deny it.

DB needs to start sending messages that ALL players who turn over the puck will be sitting at the far end and losing ice time.

It's like a virus when you keep letting this happen without accountability. Last night it was Neal, Sutter and Kunitz... Before that it was Cooke and Kunitz... etc. etc. Worst of all, Malkin and Crosby are turnover machines.

It's a troubling pattern affecting the entire team. No system is designed to account for this many turnovers. DB needs to start sending a message about accountability and that puck mismanagement won't be tolerated. Kunitz is an ideal guy to make his first example out of.
Agree on all points

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01-28-2013, 05:18 PM
  #334
gopens66
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
The problem is Jiggy, you and I both know what happens when you start benching vets. THAT is when the room starts turning on you, especially when as a "vet" you've earned the benefit of the doubt of more than a handful of games, especially under some very unique circumstances with the late start and no training camp.
Michel Therrien coached two Stanley Cup finals teams. He lost the room and didn't get to see the second one. Fine line kind of stuff.

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01-28-2013, 05:58 PM
  #335
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Malkin's defense is only noticed when we only score one frickin' goal in a game. Yeah, I suppose it's going to happen, but Geno's not paid to spend the night in our own zone. He's supposed to be the most dynamic offensive player in hockey. And has shown that in pretty much every league, every tournament, everywhere.

I could care less about Geno's plus/minus. It's his point total that will dictate what kind of season the team has.

And another point, if I see Tanner Glass have his stick in the wrong position when Geno is passing to him right in prime scoring position, or Tyler Kennedy whiffing badly on a gorgeous Geno setup, I'm going to lose it.

So, I'm not worried at all about Malkin's D. Just score points, baby. Well, as well as can be with your completely useless array of left-wingers.

EDIT: FYI I'm more concerned about Sid looking fairly ordinary so far, than anything to do with Malkin (defense included).

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01-28-2013, 10:45 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. You're **** right I'm paranoid. Another one and done, no changes to the staff, if YOU were Geno, would you be in a rush to sign an extension this summer with, for example, your buddy Kovalchuk saying 'wouldn't it be fun if we played together'? That's why I'm paranoid. I just think this 'done deal, no question' attitude around here is incredibly myopic (but typical).
"Come join me in the swamp, comrade! If anyone knows about winning in the NHL, it's me, Ilya Kovalchuk. Trust me, we're best friends because I made you and Ovechkin kiss and make up that one time."

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2. I'm not thrilled with the guy's demeanor (CV seemed to agree that it was worth watching). But, hey, Rowdy says all is well, so all is well.
My point was that Malkin getting majorly pissed off during a game could not be less remarkable. It's like Kennedy taking an ill-advised shot or Kunitz having a goal disallowed. He's a fiercely competitive, excitable *******.

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01-29-2013, 01:13 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I could care less about Geno's plus/minus. It's his point total that will dictate what kind of season the team has.
We should care that Geno is playing total hockey. He can, he should.... mostly he is.
But I certainly don't care about his plus/minus after 5 games. There have been a few egregiously bad turnovers (and there always will be with him), but they stand out because goals were scored against us, and in both instances Lovejoy made horrible attempts at preventing it. At this point his minus score is more about on ice shooting/save percentage (0.793) and plain luck than anything else.
Sid could easily have been in the same situation but in his case guys like Martin, Nisky, Letang and Engelland have been covering up when he made mistakes.

The majority of the time so far, Geno's line is the (only) one that works offensively and is creating pressure. Geno leading the league in takeaways this far is a main reason for that.
The only thing I am annoyed with from Geno so far is that his penalties have been too daft, and if there is any one giveaway I cannot accept, it was the one in OT at Ottawa and that was one that did not show up in plus/minus fortunately.

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01-29-2013, 02:59 AM
  #338
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I think just the fact that we need a thread like this is enough cause to realize we're in trouble with coaching.

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01-29-2013, 08:00 AM
  #339
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Speaking of Babcock, I wonder if any Wings fans are getting impatient with him, trying to make his seat hot. Like Bylsma, he hasn't gone deep in a while. Could his once vaunted "system" be stale and figured out, like Bylsma's?

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01-29-2013, 08:15 AM
  #340
Florentino Ariza
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Speaking of Babcock, I wonder if any Wings fans are getting impatient with him, trying to make his seat hot. Like Bylsma, he hasn't gone deep in a while. Could his once vaunted "system" be stale and figured out, like Bylsma's?
This is a testament to how hard it is to win the cup every year or go deep. Is it that difficult of a concept to accept?

Agreed with MTL on all accounts. I think just as it's way too early to make any judgments about the season, it's much too early to bench veterans who may just be having a bad few games. That would send a very bad message and set a bad precedent that could result in a loss of confidence for bylsma.

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01-29-2013, 08:46 AM
  #341
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Okay, so how much longer do we wait for Kunitz to stop playing horribly? It's not as if he, as an example, is gripping the stick too hard but is flying around out there making things happen. Other than 2 sweet boarding penalties, the only thing he has done is turn the puck over and missed obvious d assignments. That's a lack of effort and focus. You bench players for that kind of stuff.

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01-29-2013, 08:59 AM
  #342
Florentino Ariza
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Okay, so how much longer do we wait for Kunitz to stop playing horribly? It's not as if he, as an example, is gripping the stick too hard but is flying around out there making things happen. Other than 2 sweet boarding penalties, the only thing he has done is turn the puck over and missed obvious d assignments. That's a lack of effort and focus. You bench players for that kind of stuff.
I'd say that benching a veteran (who really isn't questioned for heart but does have bad games sometimes ) for a streak of awful games after a lockout is too soon. Can't give you a #.

We also don't know what is causing this bad play. I mean he really looks awful. Is it a personal thing? rust? has he lost a step? That matters with vets


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01-29-2013, 09:07 AM
  #343
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People keep associating benching with being scratched and missing games, instead of losing shifts, getting demoted, etc.

Once again, I'm 100% sure DB is pointing out these mistakes both during and after the game. Kunitz especially isn't getting the message. Trying to stickhandle through three guys at the blueline and turning the puck over, after all of his other mistakes, makes it quite clear he needs a msg sent.

That can only be done by giving his ice time to a more responsible player. His mistakes are unforced mental errors and there is no way in hell a good coach should allow it to continue. It isn't fair to his teammates.

As I keep asking, why do Jeffrey, Tangradi and Despres get a seat for much less offenses than Kunitz?

Everyone needs to be accountable. Vet, rookie, star, etc.

At least with rookies they are expected to make mistakes and need to be given more leeway. DB gives his rookies a short leash and his vets a ridiculous amount of leeway... I think it's counterproductive.

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01-29-2013, 09:15 AM
  #344
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This season is early. Very, very early:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1335899

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01-29-2013, 09:25 AM
  #345
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
I'd say that benching a veteran (who really isn't questioned for heart but does have bad games sometimes ) for a streak of awful games after a lockout is too soon. Can't give you a #.

We also don't know what is causing this bad play. I mean he really looks awful. Is it a personal thing? rust? has he lost a step? That matters with vets
Yeah I'm not talking about putting him in the press box. I'm saying take him off the PP for a game to say "this **** isn't working and until you figure it out, you aren't playing the PP". That's totally reasonable.

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01-29-2013, 09:27 AM
  #346
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Speaking of Babcock, I wonder if any Wings fans are getting impatient with him, trying to make his seat hot. Like Bylsma, he hasn't gone deep in a while. Could his once vaunted "system" be stale and figured out, like Bylsma's?
I am still trying to figure out how Barry Trotz still has a job.

I think DB has a another two years of early exits before he is shown the door (this truncated season is just a ready made excuse for ALL the GM's). However one long run to the conference or Cup finals and his clock starts over.

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01-29-2013, 09:36 AM
  #347
Dupree13
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I don't see any upside to benching and/or demoting Kunitz. Unless you think he has his head completely up his ass, he knows he needs to play better. It's like, Malkin's made some worse plays that Kunitz. Bench Malkin? No. I think the various bad plays are just a function of the whole team looking disorganized and disjointed. Giving them more time and hoping they work out the kinks is the only option we have right now.

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01-29-2013, 09:39 AM
  #348
Shady Machine
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I don't see any upside to benching and/or demoting Kunitz. Unless you think he has his head completely up his ass, he knows he needs to play better. It's like, Malkin's made some worse plays that Kunitz. Bench Malkin? No. I think the various bad plays are just a function of the whole team looking disorganized and disjointed. Giving them more time and hoping they work out the kinks is the only option we have right now.
Here's the difference. Malkin has made those mistakes and stupid passes, but he has also made a significant positive impact overall. I still think you tell Geno those passes can't happen. Kunitz has literally done nothing positive in 5 games. He has had a net negative impact on the game.

Either way it's not a big deal. I just want to see Kunitz play better.


Last edited by Shady Machine: 01-29-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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01-29-2013, 09:49 AM
  #349
Dupree13
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Here's the difference. Malkin has made those mistakes and stupid passes, but he has also made a significant positive impact overall. I still think you tell Geno those passes can't happen. Kunitz has literally done nothing positive in 5 games. He has had a net negative impact on the game.
Well Malkin is a lot more talented than Kunitz, so yeah he can play stupid hockey and still produce. But I think it is symptoms of the same disease, the team just hasn't been sharp. The lines aren't cohesive at all and it's leading to a lot of ugly plays out there from just about everybody. Maybe Kunitz has stuck out like a sore thumb moreso than others but I still don't think singling him out is helpful. We know Kunitz didn't become terrible in one summer, after a career year no less. Whole team unit just needs to get it's crap together.

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01-29-2013, 10:04 AM
  #350
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
I don't see any upside to benching and/or demoting Kunitz. Unless you think he has his head completely up his ass, he knows he needs to play better. It's like, Malkin's made some worse plays that Kunitz. Bench Malkin? No. I think the various bad plays are just a function of the whole team looking disorganized and disjointed. Giving them more time and hoping they work out the kinks is the only option we have right now.
It doesn't take five games to realize you shouldn't try stick handling through three guys up high. This isn't a scoring slump or something of that nature.

Despres was at least making up for his mistakes with his breakouts and passing. Kunitz has done nothing in five games but hurt the team and make one mistake after another.

Despres gets benched. Kunitz doesn't lose a single shift and is even rewarded with PP time.

There is something inherently wrong with that philosophy.

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