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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:35 PM
  #626
ColePens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I know you aren't bullish on Jeffrey, but he damn well better stay on Malkin's line all game.

He showed enough that we should not be seeing musical chairs on Malkin's line tomorrow.
Even though I'm not a believer, I want to make sure my analysis is correct. Nobody in the business should be that naive to just follow their beliefs. I've seen guys I never thought were good players end up stars. I've seen guys I thought had all the skill in the world get in games and just look like hot garbage.

DJ's hockey mind gives me reason to AT THE MINIMUM give him a 10 game shot. And I mean 10 full games with being on Genos line every time Geno's name is called 5 on 5. It should have been 6 full games for ET, 6 for DJ, then choose between the two what they want to see.

Dan Bylsma's magic hat of names is a joke. No way can a kid thrive off that and feel he has a legit chance. In fact, it will never work in any sport.

I want to make sure I'm right before I send him away. And I don't thin he's had a legit opportunity. Inevitably, I see him as a very solid 3rd line center for a lesser team.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:36 PM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
My take FWIW: Jeffrey had a long injury absence that he never really had a chance to get his wheels back from if I remember right. And I also remember before that, he had some great shifts when the team was decimated with injuries, including some great shots / chances.

He's a stop-gap but relative to all the others on this team, I agree with you that he's the smartest player out there. Sometimes that is enough when you are being centered by the best player on the planet. Let's hope the new arrangement can stabilize things. Sounds like it will be

Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis
Jeffrey - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Glass
Tango - Adams - TK

...not even worth arguing about those bottom 6 and 2LW at this point; we've hit bottom. Let's do the one thing Disco knows how to do (change a line instead of some part of the system), and leave it for 3 or 4 games and see what happens. If the suck continues... probably Disco has ordered his last Qdoba. If things turn around then at least we have a stable situation until Shero can make a trade bring in 2 or 3 new players to shake this damn team up and bring some positive change / new attitude.
Apologize to Vitale. Right...now.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:44 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Apologize to Vitale. Right...now.
ME? It's Disco who is going to make him the 13th forward according to the legend that TK will be on the 4th line. Was there also news Tango is being scratched / sent down? It goes without saying the real mistake in all this madness is that Vitale should be on Line 2. No disrespect to Jeffrey but common. Soff.

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01-30-2013, 10:44 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Apologize to Vitale. Right...now.
Really it's not even about Vitale. It's about Bylsma messing up something that was working, namely the third line with Cooke, Sutter, and TK. Glass on the third line and Cooke on his off-wing has been a horrible combination.

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01-30-2013, 10:46 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
My take FWIW: Jeffrey had a long injury absence that he never really had a chance to get his wheels back from if I remember right. And I also remember before that, he had some great shifts when the team was decimated with injuries, including some great shots / chances.

He's a stop-gap but relative to all the others on this team, I agree with you that he's the smartest player out there. Sometimes that is enough when you are being centered by the best player on the planet. Let's hope the new arrangement can stabilize things. Sounds like it will be

Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis
Jeffrey - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Glass
Tango - Adams - TK

...not even worth arguing about those bottom 6 and 2LW at this point; we've hit bottom. Let's do the one thing Disco knows how to do (change a line instead of some part of the system), and leave it for 3 or 4 games and see what happens. If the suck continues... probably Disco has ordered his last Qdoba. If things turn around then at least we have a stable situation until Shero can make a trade bring in 2 or 3 new players to shake this damn team up and bring some positive change / new attitude.
I'm under no delusions Jeffrey is a long term answer in the top six, but given the other uh... talent... that is left, he is the best solution. Neal and Malkin aren't burners, so his skating shouldn't hold him back.

I would rather dance to my death with The Village People before I see Tanner Glass on Malkin's line again.

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01-30-2013, 10:48 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Really it's not even about Vitale.
Whoa Whoa WHOA.... it's ALWAYS.... about Vitale.

Now you can join the coach in apologizing. You think just anyone can do this?




People, all this upheaval... it was foreseen by the elders... this is how Joe becomes a Top 6 Winger and scores 50 pts.

You heard it here first.

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01-30-2013, 10:48 PM
  #632
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As much as I would like giving lines more time to gel, and as much as I think the Dustin Jeffrey who made the team with a bang in Buffalo could succeed on Malkin's line, it is hard to think he will get the chance you guys pine for.
Five guys have seen that in six games. Jeffrey got scratched after our opener. Tangradi has been in goalies grill for two Neal goals so far, and even after demotion to the 4th line got rewarded with a scratch after playing a solid game against Ottawa. Despres got scratched - for Lovejoy - after a good game against Toronto. Vitale has been our most consistently solid forward so far, and he is pretty much the only player who is NEVER given a shift with the stars.

Little reason to think anything is going to change this pattern other than production that turns up on the box score.

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01-30-2013, 10:51 PM
  #633
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Maybe we ought to give Skank Martin a PTO. He is Bylsma's kind of player. Sure Lovejoy took one in the head... but how many guys can take them to the nuts and still skate a shift 2 minutes later?

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01-30-2013, 10:52 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Really it's not even about Vitale. It's about Bylsma messing up something that was working, namely the third line with Cooke, Sutter, and TK. Glass on the third line and Cooke on his off-wing has been a horrible combination.
I will agree about Cooke/Sutter/TK. They are meant to be together. They could grind lines down and play defense against the best of them. Then you can send out the 4th of Vitale, Adams, and Glass easily.

My hatred for DB is going to reach a level higher than MT...and that's near impossible. MT would respect a guy like Vitale for busting his balls night in/night out. That legend/God/whatever you want to call him has drawn a few penalties this year and changed momentum around a bunch. I hate that he gets the shaft from time to time. It's beyond ridiculous.

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01-30-2013, 10:54 PM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
As much as I would like giving lines more time to gel, and as much as I think the Dustin Jeffrey who made the team with a bang in Buffalo could succeed on Malkin's line, it is hard to think he will get the chance you guys pine for.
Five guys have seen that in six games. Jeffrey got scratched after our opener. Tangradi has been in goalies grill for two Neal goals so far, and even after demotion to the 4th line got rewarded with a scratch after playing a solid game against Ottawa. Despres got scratched - for Lovejoy - after a good game against Toronto. Vitale has been our most consistently solid forward so far, and he is pretty much the only player who is NEVER given a shift with the stars.

Little reason to think anything is going to change this pattern other than production that turns up on the box score.
Agree, at this point I just wonder how many will get a look, until Shero trades for a top 6 (if he does)


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Old
01-30-2013, 10:58 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm under no delusions Jeffrey is a long term answer in the top six, but given the other uh... talent... that is left, he is the best solution. Neal and Malkin aren't burners, so his skating shouldn't hold him back.

I would rather dance to my death with The Village People before I see Tanner Glass on Malkin's line again.
Why has Matt Cooke not seen any time there? He seems like the best option to me. He is Kunitz 2.0

Then put ET on line 3

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01-30-2013, 11:10 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I will agree about Cooke/Sutter/TK. They are meant to be together. They could grind lines down and play defense against the best of them. Then you can send out the 4th of Vitale, Adams, and Glass easily.

My hatred for DB is going to reach a level higher than MT...and that's near impossible. MT would respect a guy like Vitale for busting his balls night in/night out. That legend/God/whatever you want to call him has drawn a few penalties this year and changed momentum around a bunch. I hate that he gets the shaft from time to time. It's beyond ridiculous.

The thing about coaches like Therrien though is that they just wear out their players after two or three seasons. They smother talent with system. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers players turned against Torts in the near future for similar reasons. Hell, even Therrien didn't implement a six goalie system.

Personally, I think there are two major things the coaching staff needs to do:
1.) Stop ****ing up line combinations and go with what works.
2.) You're probably tired of hearing me say it, but bring in someone else to run the PP.

The rest is up to the players to play better.

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01-30-2013, 11:29 PM
  #638
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Has anyone seen part 4 of the new 'In the Room' episode? Bylsma is talking about trimming the roster. I think he misspeaks some, but he blatantly shows how little trust he has in prospects learning and developing in the NHL.

The funny thing is he prefaces his statement with 'If you learn anything in this game'. After getting spanked by a roster full of rookies in the playoffs against Philly, it shows how much learning he's made.

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01-31-2013, 12:15 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
Has anyone seen part 4 of the new 'In the Room' episode? Bylsma is talking about trimming the roster. I think he misspeaks some, but he blatantly shows how little trust he has in prospects learning and developing in the NHL.

The funny thing is he prefaces his statement with 'If you learn anything in this game'. After getting spanked by a roster full of rookies in the playoffs against Philly, it shows how much learning he's made.
I would like to see how Bylsma would handle one or two skilled rookies from Europe but then again after they passed up Forsberg & Grigorenko in the draft we may never get that chance as long as Bylsma is still in charge behind the bench.

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01-31-2013, 12:33 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
The thing about coaches like Therrien though is that they just wear out their players after two or three seasons. They smother talent with system. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers players turned against Torts in the near future for similar reasons. Hell, even Therrien didn't implement a six goalie system.
It's amazing how good a team can look if the players just stop whining about a coach like that and play hard like they're supposed to though. See St. Louis. They're a well-stocked team, but they're not THAT good with any other coach. Here we preach in your face hockey, but if not oh well. We're all friends right?

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01-31-2013, 03:36 AM
  #641
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you mean the same man advantage that couldn't get us out of the 1st round last year?

Sullivan was a band-aid. Every team signs them but not every team forces their generational talents to play in a system geared towards mediocre talents.
bingo.bango.bongo.

#disconeedstogogo

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01-31-2013, 04:38 AM
  #642
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I am not satisfied with being in the Canuck mold. (Regular season success) I would like to see this team play the way they did in the 09 playoffs, and early on in DB's tenure, while there was the meshing of responsibility and aggressiveness. Now everything's SO ****ing pedestrian with them, that I find myself shutting of the tv in disgust more than enjoying a well played game. Something has to be done. There is no accountability for mistakes on this team. Kunitz lays egg after egg, and is given more icetime to lay another egg. I cannot stand to watch him do all the wrong things, while our young kids are busting ass and get benched for making one effing mistake. That's what young players do! There are going to be growing pains, DB needs to let them play through it, instead of "sheltering" them. If anyone should be getting benched, it's the veterans who play like being responsible, and giving a **** about the outcome is beneath them. I would love for Therrien to come and light a fire under the ***** of this team. He knew how to get poise and responsibility out of his players. Sure they may have hated it, but they at least cared enough to try. Now, everyone gets breaks for everything, and the blanket response for our gaffes is "we didn't get to our game." Of course we didn't get to our ****ing game, we were to busy sipping tea and preparing our golf swing for the playoffs, which at this pace, we'll be lucky to be in.

Disclaimer: I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but this is just how I see it progressing. Feel free to disagree, I encourage it, but I am very passionate about our players being responsible. It's their job, and they should do it right. If their performances as players were equalized to that of the performances of doctors, they'd have two things:
1. No patients
2. Several hundred malpractice suits.

That is all.

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Old
01-31-2013, 07:37 AM
  #643
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I just watched the postgame interview with Bylsma after the Islanders game. Man, he sounds soo clueless. He didnt really answer one question with a proper response and when he did, it was the same old ramblings about getting to our game and execution bla bla.

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01-31-2013, 08:30 AM
  #644
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I wasn't blaming you or accusing you of doing anything, I just... I want to see how the team reacts. That's what I'm dying to see. I believe there was something more to Brian Strait's comments than just normal quotes. I think there was something to Malkin's comments today (maybe not hinting at something, but he sure didn't seem confident in buying into the changes). I just want to see how they perform when they step on the ice.

If they mail it in again, SOMETHING has to happen, and not in 10 games.
Me too. I told Rowdy, who asked what I thought the Pens record will be after the next 9 (NJx3, Wasx2, NYR, NYI, WIN, OTT). I said I could see under .500, 6-3 (with Sid or Geno, maybe Fleury stealing a few of them), or a 7-2 type dominant run where all will be well (whether it's a false sense of security being a different matter). But, I just don't know.

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01-31-2013, 08:32 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I know you aren't bullish on Jeffrey, but he damn well better stay on Malkin's line all game.

He showed enough that we should not be seeing musical chairs on Malkin's line tomorrow.
Sorry, Jiggy, Vegas already set the over/under for removal at 4:13 of the second period.

I'll let you try to figure out if I'm only joking.

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01-31-2013, 08:37 AM
  #646
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It all goes back to the fact that our roster is pathetic....outside of Crosby and Malkin we literally have nobody who can generate offense. I doubt even Neal would do very well without the benefit of playing with a supreme talent. Most teams you look at have lots of guys who can contribute and score goals/provide some nice passes. We have a few guys who can score some ugly goals, but absolutely nobody who can pass well and create space for himself outside of Malkin/Crosby. Look at the depth on Chicago, St Louis, Boston, San Jose, Edmonton, Los Angeles, etc. I'm not holding all o those up as examples of what it takes to be a successful franchise, because tons of factors are important. But those teams have way more guys who aren't superstars but can sustain a cycle, generate chances, and convert on them. Maybe this says more about the two superstar model than about anything else.

The coach is the easiest person to blame in professional sports. It's so easy to sit back and say "The players have tuned him out" or "This system isn't working anymore". And the group think amongst Pens fans here is so strong that when somebody points out that maybe we should sit back and see what happens before demanding Bylsma's head, that person is treated as somebody who doesn't really understand what's going on. This is a coach who has been tremendously successful and has faced real roster adversity in his first few years (injured Crosby, lack of depth, defense that was supposed to be good but sucks). There are convincing reasons as to why the team hasn't been successful in the playoffs; to date nobody has given me the standard that Bylsma needs to uphold (how far we get in the playoffs per # of years) and why that number is logical. It's because there is no metric of success especially in this league where it is very hard to go far in the playoffs let alone win the Stanley Cup.

The fundamental problem with the Penguins is that they have a weak roster outside of Malkin/Crosby. I know they'll start to play really well and everybody will forget about this until the next bad stretch when they'll call for Bylsm's head even more, but the structural problem with the Pen's roster is going to be there whether they are winning or losing.
Hey, great points. It's all on the roster.

By the way, what was Michel Therrien's roster like the day he was fired? Were you crying over that, that ALL (the issues) could be traced back to the roster? Sykora, Satan, Fedotenko, Dupuis is what Therrien had to complete his top six. Gonchar had just returned from injury. Sid played January and part of February 2009 with a strained groin. In spite of all this, Therrien was 7-7-1 in his last 15 games. But, along with surprising wins against good teams came inexplicable efforts against weaker teams.

Then again, maybe you're right. It's ALL about the personnel with this team, because if Bylsma was the right coach at one moment in time four years ago, then he surely must be at this moment in time.

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01-31-2013, 08:37 AM
  #647
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Watching Jacque Martin (Spelling?) of all people make Bylmsa look like a fool in '10 really had me questioning if he was the right guy long term. He may become Toe Blake, but he ain't there yet. Scotty Bowman was fired. It's a part of the job.

Now you are seeing the players as exasperated as I have been. You lose respect quick for a guy you know is leading you down the wrong path. Dan has been losing this team since mid-point last year.

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01-31-2013, 08:39 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Sorry, Jiggy, Vegas already set the over/under for removal at 4:13 of the second period.

I'll let you try to figure out if I'm only joking.
Is that when Jeffrey misses a shot on net and gets benched for the rest of the period?

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01-31-2013, 08:39 AM
  #649
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Even though I'm not a believer, I want to make sure my analysis is correct. Nobody in the business should be that naive to just follow their beliefs. I've seen guys I never thought were good players end up stars. I've seen guys I thought had all the skill in the world get in games and just look like hot garbage.

DJ's hockey mind gives me reason to AT THE MINIMUM give him a 10 game shot. And I mean 10 full games with being on Genos line every time Geno's name is called 5 on 5. It should have been 6 full games for ET, 6 for DJ, then choose between the two what they want to see.

Dan Bylsma's magic hat of names is a joke. No way can a kid thrive off that and feel he has a legit chance. In fact, it will never work in any sport.

I want to make sure I'm right before I send him away. And I don't thin he's had a legit opportunity. Inevitably, I see him as a very solid 3rd line center for a lesser team.
If only someone would tell Dan Bylsma that . . .

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01-31-2013, 08:41 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Sorry, Jiggy, Vegas already set the over/under for removal at 4:13 of the second period.

I'll let you try to figure out if I'm only joking.
I would have bet the under on 4:13 of the first

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