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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 01:09 PM
  #151
TheRollingPuck
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If Bylsma does in fact coach this team into the playoffs, and again they flop, then I expect the axe to come down on both him and Shero.

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01-26-2013, 01:13 PM
  #152
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If Bylsma does in fact coach this team into the playoffs, and again they flop, then I expect the axe to come down on both him and Shero.
I don't know if it will come down on Shero (maybe it should).

Then again, maybe both of them will be saved by the 'it was 48 games, we didn't have a camp to get the kinks out' excuse. They'll file it right next to the excuses for 2010, 2011, and 2012.

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01-26-2013, 01:19 PM
  #153
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I don't know if it will come down on Shero (maybe it should).

Then again, maybe both of them will be saved by the 'it was 48 games, we didn't have a camp to get the kinks out' excuse. They'll file it right next to the excuses for 2010, 2011, and 2012.
I don't think Bylsma and Shero's fates should be tied together. Shero is supporting his coach 100%, which he should.

In my other, non-freaking out fan life, I cover football (not Steelers). If there's one thing I've learned, it's that 99% of fans don't think like fans who care enough to post on message boards.

While we believe there is a problem with Bylsma, the vast majority of fans think he's great, think the team is amazing, and that every loss is actually just a matter of a couple of bad bounces and a failure to "get to their game."

So it's hard to just fire the guy who won a cup a few years ago. So, until the organization is willing to go down that path, Shero should supporting Bylsma and his system 100%.

I've disagreed very little with Shero's bigger moves, and I think he's done a lot of good in building a team with an eye towards being able to retain Sid and Geno long term.

tl;dr - if Blysma goes, I think Shero should stay.

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01-26-2013, 01:30 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I don't think Bylsma and Shero's fates should be tied together. Shero is supporting his coach 100%, which he should.

In my other, non-freaking out fan life, I cover football (not Steelers). If there's one thing I've learned, it's that 99% of fans don't think like fans who care enough to post on message boards.

While we believe there is a problem with Bylsma, the vast majority of fans think he's great, think the team is amazing, and that every loss is actually just a matter of a couple of bad bounces and a failure to "get to their game."

So it's hard to just fire the guy who won a cup a few years ago. So, until the organization is willing to go down that path, Shero should supporting Bylsma and his system 100%.

I've disagreed very little with Shero's bigger moves, and I think he's done a lot of good in building a team with an eye towards being able to retain Sid and Geno long term.

tl;dr - if Blysma goes, I think Shero should stay.
I wonder how, if at all, the way this season plays out and the way this coaching staff uses him will factor into the ability to keep Geno long term.

It may not at all. Then again, maybe his buddy Kovalchuk gets into his ear (you know they'd have a spot for him). He worships Datsyuk, and you know that organization and that coach would love to have him. Kulemin is one of his best friends, and Toronto always needs a center. I think he'll resign. I;m almost 100% sure of it. But, the fact that I'm no longer 100% sure worries me. Money isn't the thing, but he clearly had too much fun playing in the KHL, for a coach like Maurice (defensive style, used him all facets like a horse) and with his buddies, to think that there's no way he'd NEVER leave in a year and a half (for another team in the NHL).

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01-26-2013, 01:32 PM
  #155
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I wonder how, if at all, the way this season plays out and the way this coaching staff uses him will factor into the ability to keep Geno long term.

It may not at all. Then again, maybe his buddy Kovalchuk gets into his ear (you know they'd have a spot for him). He worships Datsyuk, and you know that organization and that coach would love to have him. Kulemin is one of his best friends, and Toronto always needs a center. I think he'll resign. I;m almost 100% sure of it. But, the fact that I'm no longer 100% sure worries me. Money isn't the thing, but he clearly had too much fun playing in the KHL, for a coach like Maurice (defensive style, used him all facets like a horse) and with his buddies, to think that there's no way he'd NEVER leave in a year and a half (for another team in the NHL).
I always worry about him not wanting to re-sign. The fact that he seemed to really enjoy Russia only added to that. The "silver lining", and it's barely that, is the organization will know on July 1st if he wants to be here or not, and if he doesn't, they should be able to fill a lot of holes on the team by trading him.

I'm not advocating that, and certainly not saying it makes them better, but at least they wouldn't lose him for nothing (like Staal)

edit: will say, though: he either wants to stay in Pitts or he doesn't. I don't think the sole focus should be perfecting his line to make him happy. He has Neal, he has a lot of ice time, he can play a fun style. If he wants more responsibility, I hope he's gone to Bylsma and asked for it.

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01-26-2013, 01:43 PM
  #156
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Probably not.

You know, seriously, the one time I thought Bylsma showed real growth as a coach was the series against Tampa, when he broke the vaunted 1-3-1. Took Tampa four games to figure it out, but Boucher figured it out, adjusted, and Bylsma did nothing from there.

I'm talking about tactically. IMO, going up 3-1 against Tampa was the one time he really showed tactical vision as a coach. But, when Tampa changed, he didn't, and THAT really is a big part of the problem:

When a team prepares for or adjusts against the Pens, we're screwed.

Sometimes, talent wins the day, like the series win against Ottawa in 2010 or a regular season game against a **** team. But, it really is a trend if you think about it: The games where teams gameplan or adjust are the ones where the Pens seem to get away from their game. That's one heck of a coincidence.
If you ask me, Fleury's goaltending has been the main factor in our last 3 playoff losses - he's been outplayed by every goalie he's faced...even a geriatric Roloson. Hard for DB to plan around Fleury's sievery. You can cite a change in tactics by Boucher, but the fact is that Fleury let in 9 goals on 58 shots in those last 3 games, and Roloson only let in 4 on 98. Regardless of the quality of shots, that is a huge discrepancy.

Bolstering that position in the off-season will do far more to help us than any coaching change could, IMHO.

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01-26-2013, 01:46 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If you ask me, Fleury's goaltending has been the main factor in our last 3 playoff losses - he's been outplayed by every goalie he's faced...even a geriatric Roloson. Hard for DB to plan around Fleury's sievery. You can cite a change in tactics by Boucher, but the fact is that Fleury let in 9 goals on 58 shots in those last 3 games, and Roloson only let in 4 on 98. Regardless of the quality of shots, that is a huge discrepancy.

Bolstering that position in the off-season will do far more to help us than any coaching change could, IMHO.
Now, that I can agree with.

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01-26-2013, 01:48 PM
  #158
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I wonder how, if at all, the way this season plays out and the way this coaching staff uses him will factor into the ability to keep Geno long term.

It may not at all. Then again, maybe his buddy Kovalchuk gets into his ear (you know they'd have a spot for him). He worships Datsyuk, and you know that organization and that coach would love to have him. Kulemin is one of his best friends, and Toronto always needs a center. I think he'll resign. I;m almost 100% sure of it. But, the fact that I'm no longer 100% sure worries me. Money isn't the thing, but he clearly had too much fun playing in the KHL, for a coach like Maurice (defensive style, used him all facets like a horse) and with his buddies, to think that there's no way he'd NEVER leave in a year and a half (for another team in the NHL).
If history's any clue, KIRK buddy, nothing will stop you from fretting about Geno re-signing until it actually happens.

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01-26-2013, 01:50 PM
  #159
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I always worry about him not wanting to re-sign. The fact that he seemed to really enjoy Russia only added to that. The "silver lining", and it's barely that, is the organization will know on July 1st if he wants to be here or not, and if he doesn't, they should be able to fill a lot of holes on the team by trading him.

I'm not advocating that, and certainly not saying it makes them better, but at least they wouldn't lose him for nothing (like Staal)

edit: will say, though: he either wants to stay in Pitts or he doesn't. I don't think the sole focus should be perfecting his line to make him happy. He has Neal, he has a lot of ice time, he can play a fun style. If he wants more responsibility, I hope he's gone to Bylsma and asked for it.
He also wants to win and thrives on the responsibility that this coach won't give him. He's got Neal, but I also wonder if he looks at it and says 'Sid took less, I'm going to be asked to take less, and every year, and for what'.

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If history's any clue, KIRK buddy, nothing will stop you from fretting about Geno re-signing until it actually happens.
You have no concern, then?

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01-26-2013, 01:51 PM
  #160
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Now, that I can agree with.
And me . . .

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01-26-2013, 01:58 PM
  #161
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You have no concern, then?
Nope. He's repeatedly gone on record saying he likes it here, wants to win more Cups here, and re-sign here. He doesn't like the added spotlight that would inevitably come with playing on any team without Sid. He'll get paid Sid money or better (if he wants), and he now has an elite winger signed longterm to flank him.

There's no more the guy could do to show he wants to stay in Pittsburgh for the long haul. I expect him to re-sign with us as soon as he's able. Probably that very day.

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Now, that I can agree with.
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And me . . .
Right on!

So if MAF was the biggest issue, let's see what DB can do with a Plan B if Fleury ***** the bed again, shall we?

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01-26-2013, 01:59 PM
  #162
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I might just be taking this way too seriously but when Malkin scored the goal against Toronto he just looked so disinterested .You would have thought he would have scored it when it was 6-0 Toronto. He just seemed so happy over in the KHL but now that he's back over he seems be slightly disinterested right now.

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01-26-2013, 02:00 PM
  #163
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Hopefully though I'm blowing this way out of proportion.

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01-26-2013, 02:05 PM
  #164
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Question: Is this the right system for Sid and Geno? Or, would we be better off with a system like Bylsma used before he changed it after the cup win? I just look at those two, for example, and think you need a breakout to utilize short passing, puck support, and give and go's rather than dump and chase stretch passes again and again and again.

And agreed wholeheartedly about accountability. I keep going back to Malkin playing for Maurice in Russia. Malkin's a god there. Maurice is just another American coach. Geno played like **** defensively in like the second or third game, and Maurice benched his *** for the third period. ****, if Bylsma won't bench Englland, then you know that's part of the problem.
You can't really put a blanket over everything and say "this is the system that will make them unstoppable". Every matchup is different and your system needs to be dynamic enough to adjust on the fly, from period to period, series to series. When I can start recognizing breakouts and where each player will be going, so does the other team.

DB just has trouble counter punching and it is a little frustrating to watch. He also doesn't do well with line matching and prefers to go strength on strength, which I don't agree with. You have to exploit matchups, especially in the playoffs.

As for '09, the Pens beat the Wings because they countered the hybrid LWL the Wings employed with a chip and chase game. Watch game 7 and you will see it executed to perfection. The Wings system feasted off turnovers and quick transition. The Pens didn't mess around going E-W... All pucks beyond the red line were dumped mostly cross corner with two fwds hitting the blueline with speed. F1 and f2 were aggressive in cutting off all outlets and banging around the Wings blueliners.

This was the perfect system agt. the Wings because they were not an overly physical team. There is no guarantee it would work agt every team, because it can be countered with quick outlets and leave your fwds trapped.

The Wings did in fact counter the forecheck and that is why it was a seven game series decided by one goal. The Wings, especially Stuart, just made the big mistakes that cost them.

There is no fool proof system and all of them can be countered with disciplined play and on the fly adjustments. That's why you need talented players to step up in the playoffs and force teams into mistakes.

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01-26-2013, 02:15 PM
  #165
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I might just be taking this way too seriously but when Malkin scored the goal against Toronto he just looked so disinterested .You would have thought he would have scored it when it was 6-0 Toronto. He just seemed so happy over in the KHL but now that he's back over he seems be slightly disinterested right now.
Malkin came to Pittsburgh injured is one possible explanation. They've been spraying his hand with something (my guess is lidocaine) on the bench since he got here. If there's another reason to spray a guy's hand with something, I don't know what it is.

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01-26-2013, 02:16 PM
  #166
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Malkin came to Pittsburgh injured is one possible explanation. They've been spraying his hand with something (my guess is lidocaine) on the bench since he got here. If there's another reason to spray a guy's hand with something, I don't know what it is.
He got whacked in the first game, methinks.

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01-26-2013, 02:20 PM
  #167
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The pens identity seemed to change overnight at some point last year. Before that point they were seen as a rugged team that was good defensively, forechecked, hit, cycled, and grinded *****es down. After that point they're a floating, soft, run and gun team that's horrific in their own end. It's baffling. I'm starting to think both Bylsma and Shero are losing touch with the new nhl realities. Shero's been here for almost 7 years now, Bylsma 4. Every coach and gm have their expiration dates. The rest of the league is getting better and the pens seem like they're treading water. Happened to the Craig Patrick era penguins around 1993-94.


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01-26-2013, 02:22 PM
  #168
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I don't think THIS team can use the excuse of the 48-game season and no training camp. It's not like we would have needed that time to evaluate Morrow and Bennett a little more. If we had a training camp, it would have meant a shot for Dylan Reese and Trevor Smith.

Let's face it. Only one type of player gets onto this team. The concept of "it takes all kinds" is totally lost on the organization and the coaching staff. Yeah, we went for Hossa and we landed Neal. Awesome. Maybe if we started drafting and developing some talent, we wouldn't have to wait on the perfect trade all the time.

It's all about not maximizing what we COULD BE, not necessarily where we're at.

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01-26-2013, 02:31 PM
  #169
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He got whacked in the first game, methinks.
You could be right, but I thought I noticed his hand getting sprayed in the scrimmage. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

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01-26-2013, 02:38 PM
  #170
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It's not Shero. Look at this roster. This roster is undeniable. His prospect raising (especially on defense, that's the Nashville influence) has been top notch.

The team lacks mental toughness, motivation, and the ability to adapt to changing game systemic scenarios. That's not the GM, and it's only 1/3rd the roster. It's the coach.

If I see another 10 games that go like the last 30, then Bylsma has run his course.

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01-26-2013, 02:49 PM
  #171
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It's not Shero. Look at this roster. This roster is undeniable. His prospect raising (especially on defense, that's the Nashville influence) has been top notch.

The team lacks mental toughness, motivation, and the ability to adapt to changing game systemic scenarios. That's not the GM, and it's only 1/3rd the roster. It's the coach.

If I see another 10 games that go like the last 30, then Bylsma has run his course.
people keep saying this, but i dont see it.

its a fine roster. from top to bottom, it's nothing special.

you have three all-star caliber forwards, one all-star offensive d-man, and that's pretty much it. everyone else is extraordinarily average/subpar.

large holes at wing, enormous holes defensively, and questionable goaltending. a recipe for mediocrity.

how can anyone look at this d-corps and not think it's subpar?

although i will say, most of this chatter is overreaction. people are so fickle, a few wins and people wont shut up about how deep and great the pens are. there are legit flaws to this team though.

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01-26-2013, 02:58 PM
  #172
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people keep saying this, but i dont see it.

its a fine roster. from top to bottom, it's nothing special.

you have three all-star caliber forwards, one all-star offensive d-man, and that's pretty much it. everyone else is extraordinarily average/subpar.

large holes at wing, enormous holes defensively, and questionable goaltending. a recipe for mediocrity.
We have skilled depth issues, but simply calling Crosby, Malkin, Neal and Letang "all-stars" underplays their value somewhat. We have the two best centers in the league, a First-Team All-Star wing, and a defenseman who's been in the Norris conversation for the past two years.

Nobody else can trot out high-end skaters like that. The team's not perfect, but I wouldn't say it's nothing special. The core is incredible, it just needs to be supplemented with a deadline addition or two. But you could say that about most every team.

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01-26-2013, 03:13 PM
  #173
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people keep saying this, but i dont see it.

its a fine roster. from top to bottom, it's nothing special.

you have three all-star caliber forwards, one all-star offensive d-man, and that's pretty much it. everyone else is extraordinarily average/subpar.

large holes at wing, enormous holes defensively, and questionable goaltending. a recipe for mediocrity.

how can anyone look at this d-corps and not think it's subpar?

although i will say, most of this chatter is overreaction. people are so fickle, a few wins and people wont shut up about how deep and great the pens are. there are legit flaws to this team though.
You know, I seem to recall a lot of us, for example, pointing to the systemic and personnel flaws of the team last year. Then again, all of us were seeing how the flaws exposed themselves in the regular season, especially against teams that did full game planning and adjustments against the Pens, and we were looking forward to how those issues would translate in the playoffs.

I'm sure it will be different this time.

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01-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You can't really put a blanket over everything and say "this is the system that will make them unstoppable". Every matchup is different and your system needs to be dynamic enough to adjust on the fly, from period to period, series to series. When I can start recognizing breakouts and where each player will be going, so does the other team.

DB just has trouble counter punching and it is a little frustrating to watch. He also doesn't do well with line matching and prefers to go strength on strength, which I don't agree with. You have to exploit matchups, especially in the playoffs.

As for '09, the Pens beat the Wings because they countered the hybrid LWL the Wings employed with a chip and chase game. Watch game 7 and you will see it executed to perfection. The Wings system feasted off turnovers and quick transition. The Pens didn't mess around going E-W... All pucks beyond the red line were dumped mostly cross corner with two fwds hitting the blueline with speed. F1 and f2 were aggressive in cutting off all outlets and banging around the Wings blueliners.

This was the perfect system agt. the Wings because they were not an overly physical team. There is no guarantee it would work agt every team, because it can be countered with quick outlets and leave your fwds trapped.

The Wings did in fact counter the forecheck and that is why it was a seven game series decided by one goal. The Wings, especially Stuart, just made the big mistakes that cost them.

There is no fool proof system and all of them can be countered with disciplined play and on the fly adjustments. That's why you need talented players to step up in the playoffs and force teams into mistakes.
Thanks, Jiggy.

Reading your answer, I know that I worded my question poorly. What I was looking at, I suppose, what the idea of mixing up and adjusting breakouts, defensive coverages, etc depending upon situation.

I wonder if Sid and Geno sit there, being asked to do the same **** over and over again and knowing it's not working when other teams adjust, try to make 'something' happen, and then that doesn't work, and whether that factors into the skittish play we see sometimes from them.

This just looks so much like Therrien four years ago. Different coaching style, different system, different cliche 'try harder, do more' versus 'get to our game', but the same old case of a coach unable or unwilling to see the consequences for his team when the other team game plans specifically for the Pens or when they make aggressive in game adjustments.

EDIT: Comment on the matchups. Did you read Dave King's book? There was a blurb in there about how in Russia teams would go strength on strength and he didn't get it. He wrote about a time when he told Geno to stay on the bench, even though it was 'his turn', because then he was going to get him right out there against the fourth line. When you have Sid AND Geno, there's no way you shouldn't be getting regular matchups to exploit, especially at home but even on the road.

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01-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #175
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Nope. He's repeatedly gone on record saying he likes it here, wants to win more Cups here, and re-sign here. He doesn't like the added spotlight that would inevitably come with playing on any team without Sid. He'll get paid Sid money or better (if he wants), and he now has an elite winger signed longterm to flank him.

There's no more the guy could do to show he wants to stay in Pittsburgh for the long haul. I expect him to re-sign with us as soon as he's able. Probably that very day.





Right on!

So if MAF was the biggest issue, let's see what DB can do with a Plan B if Fleury ***** the bed again, shall we?
I hope you're right as always.

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