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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 04:20 PM
  #176
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
It's not Shero. Look at this roster. This roster is undeniable. His prospect raising (especially on defense, that's the Nashville influence) has been top notch.

The team lacks mental toughness, motivation, and the ability to adapt to changing game systemic scenarios. That's not the GM, and it's only 1/3rd the roster. It's the coach.

If I see another 10 games that go like the last 30, then Bylsma has run his course.
That's what it should be, and it shouldn't just be a question of wins and losses.

That's not what it will be, though.

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01-26-2013, 04:36 PM
  #177
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You know, I was thinking about how badly Noel outcoached DB yesterday in a tactical sense since last night, but maybe it's simpler than that. In each game, the Penguins have had a good first period and gotten sloppier from there. Theoretically, that could be rust or conditioning, but that -should- be effecting every team equally.

Maybe it's not a lack of in-game adjustments. Maybe nobody listens to them.

Say what you will about the club that ultimately lost to Tampa, but when the right thing to do when you were up by 1 or 2 was come back for the breakout and just get the puck in deep instead of planting for a hail mary that nobody was going to be able to catch and go, they never failed to do the right thing.

Same coach. Maybe the message is just falling on deaf ears.

Edit: Probably doesn't help that some of the "rah-rah, lets get to our game boys" guys are gone (Talbot, Rupp).

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01-26-2013, 04:48 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
You know, I was thinking about how badly Noel outcoached DB yesterday in a tactical sense since last night, but maybe it's simpler than that. In each game, the Penguins have had a good first period and gotten sloppier from there. Theoretically, that could be rust or conditioning, but that -should- be effecting every team equally.

Maybe it's not a lack of in-game adjustments. Maybe nobody listens to them.

Say what you will about the club that ultimately lost to Tampa, but when the right thing to do when you were up by 1 or 2 was come back for the breakout and just get the puck in deep instead of planting for a hail mary that nobody was going to be able to catch and go, they never failed to do the right thing.

Same coach. Maybe the message is just falling on deaf ears.

Edit: Probably doesn't help that some of the "rah-rah, lets get to our game boys" guys are gone (Talbot, Rupp).
That's entirely possible. But, like four years ago, whether it's the message or the willingness to listen to the messenger, that ultimately falls on the messenger.

And, if you think about it, what we've seen the last two games . . . it's not two games. It's more like 30, since pretty much starting with two or three games after Sid returned and almost every game thereafter.

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01-26-2013, 04:48 PM
  #179
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I hope you're right as always.
Oh, I've had some epic flubs, haha. But I'm as confident about Malkin re-signing here as a fan could be about a superstar re-signing with his team. To me he's as much of a lock as Crosby was.

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01-26-2013, 04:48 PM
  #180
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I love it's been the second period when teams are turning the tide against us. And then in the third we can't score. If we only played first periods Bylsma and this team would be awesome.

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01-26-2013, 04:56 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Oh, I've had some epic flubs, haha. But I'm as confident about Malkin re-signing here as a fan could be about a superstar re-signing with his team. To me he's as much of a lock as Crosby was.
I know what you're saying. I wouldn't say 'as much' as I'd say 'almost as much', and the question of how this year plays out is what gives me any tiny, tiny pause.

I really do 'feel' right now like I felt four years ago. I wanted Bylsma gone after the loss to the Flyers in the same way I wanted Therrien gone in December 2008. It's now a couple of games into January again, but what we've seen in the couple of games isn't an isolated situation as much as it's a continuation of what we've seen in pretty much every game since the second or third after Sid's return.

Think back to that game we smoked Boston in Boston, right before Sid returned. This team was an absolute machine. Sid came back, and the disturbing trends began a few games thereafter. I do NOT put that on Sid (so NOBODY better go there).

I don't know . . . I don't care how much Brooks Orpik hates playing for a hard *** coach who's big on structure and discipline and details, but this team sure as **** needs it. More talent alone won't solve things, although it might alleviate things a bit. Like four years ago, I just think the issues have moved beyond whether Bylsma is a good coach.

One last thought: Michel Therrien was fired 6 months after leading the Pens to a finals. Dan Bylsma is on year four after leading the Pens to a cup win, and there's no promise that things this time are going to be better. Insanity, Jaded-Fan noted, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Well, when you've lost Jaded . . .

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01-26-2013, 04:57 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
I love it's been the second period when teams are turning the tide against us. And then in the third we can't score. If we only played first periods Bylsma and this team would be awesome.
I'm told that teams sometimes make tactical adjustments between periods. Not the Pens. Other teams.

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01-26-2013, 05:09 PM
  #183
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I know what you're saying. I wouldn't say 'as much' as I'd say 'almost as much', and the question of how this year plays out is what gives me any tiny, tiny pause.

I really do 'feel' right now like I felt four years ago. I wanted Bylsma gone after the loss to the Flyers in the same way I wanted Therrien gone in December 2008. It's now a couple of games into January again, but what we've seen in the couple of games isn't an isolated situation as much as it's a continuation of what we've seen in pretty much every game since the second or third after Sid's return.

Think back to that game we smoked Boston in Boston, right before Sid returned. This team was an absolute machine. Sid came back, and the disturbing trends began a few games thereafter. I do NOT put that on Sid (so NOBODY better go there).

I don't know . . . I don't care how much Brooks Orpik hates playing for a hard *** coach who's big on structure and discipline and details, but this team sure as **** needs it. More talent alone won't solve things, although it might alleviate things a bit. Like four years ago, I just think the issues have moved beyond whether Bylsma is a good coach.

One last thought: Michel Therrien was fired 6 months after leading the Pens to a finals. Dan Bylsma is on year four after leading the Pens to a cup win, and there's no promise that things this time are going to be better. Insanity, Jaded-Fan noted, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Well, when you've lost Jaded . . .
I understand the skepticism. 3 early playoff exits in a row - with the last to a hated rival - doesn't foster much faith in the team's direction. Consecutive losses to the likes of TO and Wpg will always start some fires too.

But once everyone gets their timing and fitness up to speed, I think we're going to see the team look pretty formidable practicing what Bylsma preaches. And now with the addition of Vokoun and the resources to add some skilled complements at the deadline, we're going to be poised for a long playoff run. Let's give DB the benefit of changing a couple crucial variables before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

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01-26-2013, 05:14 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I understand the skepticism. 3 early playoff exits in a row - with the last to a hated rival - doesn't foster much faith in the team's direction. Consecutive losses to the likes of TO and Wpg will always start some fires too.

But once everyone gets their timing and fitness up to speed, I think we're going to see the team look pretty formidable practicing what Bylsma preaches. And now with the addition of Vokoun and the resources to add some skilled complements at the deadline, we're going to be poised for a long playoff run. Let's give DB the benefit of changing a couple crucial variables before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.
For Shero, IMO, that's going to be 'you get the playoffs unless you fall out of the hunt'.

For me, it's lets see, as timing and fitness come back, whether, win or lose, we're still doing the same **** that has come to define this team in it's last 30 games. But, in my case, 'let's see' means the next dozen or so games, not until the team plays itself out (of the playoff hunt or the playoffs).

See, that's the thing. Change the variables. More practices, a different player here or there. But, if the variables change and in a month you STILL see the same trends, then that, IMO, is when the question gets more interesting (that said, even then, I don't expect Shero to do anything . . . another GM might, but it's not Shero's style to be proactive or to do anything until it's beyond painfully obvious that something has to give in terms of personnel and/or the coaching).

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01-26-2013, 05:31 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
For Shero, IMO, that's going to be 'you get the playoffs unless you fall out of the hunt'.

For me, it's lets see, as timing and fitness come back, whether, win or lose, we're still doing the same **** that has come to define this team in it's last 30 games. But, in my case, 'let's see' means the next dozen or so games, not until the team plays itself out (of the playoff hunt or the playoffs).

See, that's the thing. Change the variables. More practices, a different player here or there. But, if the variables change and in a month you STILL see the same trends, then that, IMO, is when the question gets more interesting (that said, even then, I don't expect Shero to do anything . . . another GM might, but it's not Shero's style to be proactive or to do anything until it's beyond painfully obvious that something has to give in terms of personnel and/or the coaching).
Shero got Vokoun to ensure Fleury's well-rested for the regular season and to act as a viable Plan B if he implodes when it matters again, and we likely won't make any major acquisitions until close to the deadline.

My feeling is that we really won't be able to gauge the effects of these changes until the playoffs. If we want to isolate the root problems here, we can't go changing everything at once. Besides, I think we should give DB every chance to succeed...he's been very good for this team, and it could be a lot worse.

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01-26-2013, 05:40 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Shero got Vokoun to ensure Fleury's well-rested for the regular season and to act as a viable Plan B if he implodes when it matters again, and we likely won't make any major acquisitions until close to the deadline.

My feeling is that we really won't be able to gauge the effects of these changes until the playoffs. If we want to isolate the root problems here, we can't go changing everything at once. Besides, I think we should give DB every chance to succeed...he's been very good for this team, and it could be a lot worse.
And, that's really the catch-22, isn't it? Keep Bylsma, and you won't know until the playoffs even if the team seems to get rid of the bad trends. Replace Bylsma, and you just don't know period. In that respect, it all boils down to how much one trusts Bylsma? And, for my part, that's why I'm a lot more concerned by the trends than wins or losses. Like 2008-2009, this team will (should) win enough to make the playoffs. The question is how they're winning and losing-- and it's in this regard that I've seen no progress.

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01-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #187
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Is it too much to ask for to see this lineup for a solid ~10 games?

Forwards:
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Bennett - Crosby - Tangradi
Dupuis - Sutter - Kennedy
Cooke - Jeffrey - Vitale
Adams - Glass

Defense:
Niskanen - Letang
Orpik - Martin
Despres - Bortuzzo
Engelland
(cut Lovejoy)

PP #1:
Neal - Crosby - Malkin
Niskanen - Letang
- Niskanen and Letang are available for one timers, and Neal and Malkin are available for one timers. Let Crosby be the guy that roams into the slot and down along the goal line. Nobody should ever be stationary though.

PP #2:
Bennett - Jeffrey - Tangradi
Despres - Martin
- Considering this PP will probably only see about :20 of ice time during any given PP, I don't really have a problem that they are all youngsters. Let Jeffrey run the half wall like he did in the AHL and played lights out. Let Tangradi do his thing in front of the net. Bennett is there for one timers, and Despres and Martin just need to get their shots through to the net to create rebounds.

PK #1:
Sutter - Cooke
Orpik - Letang

PK #2:
Vitale - Dupuis
Martin - Bortuzzo

PK #3:
Crosby - Jeffrey/Kunitz
Despres - Niskanen

I think this at least puts all of our players in a position to succeed and "get to their game."

- Tangradi has looked his best with Crosby, because Crosby doesn't dominate the puck as much as the Malkin-Neal combo do. Bennett would be a nice creative addition to put on that line who could carry the puck and find Crosby with his vision.

- Kunitz goes back with Malkin and Neal to reunite one of the best lines in the NHL.

- The bottom 2 lines should be able to be counted on to produce some good secondary scoring as well as solid defense.

- The defense has 3 complimentary pairings that should be able to be counted on in any situation, although it will take some time for the young guys to work their way up to that level.

- Each PP has great puck movers and the ability for one timers all over the ice, which makes it hard on opposing PK's to concentrate on locking down one side of the PP.

- The PK has a big bodied defender on each unit to clear the front of the net out, and some competent forwards to pressure the opposing PP for shorthanded chances should the occasion arise.

- There shouldn't be anymore anchors on any lines that don't really produce any offense and the only good thing that can be said about them is they can block a shot every once in a while.

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01-26-2013, 06:01 PM
  #188
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That's entirely possible. But, like four years ago, whether it's the message or the willingness to listen to the messenger, that ultimately falls on the messenger.

And, if you think about it, what we've seen the last two games . . . it's not two games. It's more like 30, since pretty much starting with two or three games after Sid returned and almost every game thereafter.
Oh, absolutely. That's what's troubling. Losses to Winnipeg and Toronto (didn't totally care for the late efforts in either win) I'd just chalk it up to rust, a rough night or crossed signals if I hadn't seen the same damned thing since the last third of last year.

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01-26-2013, 06:04 PM
  #189
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And, that's really the catch-22, isn't it? Keep Bylsma, and you won't know until the playoffs even if the team seems to get rid of the bad trends. Replace Bylsma, and you just don't know period. In that respect, it all boils down to how much one trusts Bylsma? And, for my part, that's why I'm a lot more concerned by the trends than wins or losses. Like 2008-2009, this team will (should) win enough to make the playoffs. The question is how they're winning and losing-- and it's in this regard that I've seen no progress.
I don't look at it like a Catch-22. Bylsma staying at the helm isn't an untenable situation - he's been great in the regular season and by all accounts the players are on board with his message. At the end of Therrien's run the atmosphere was toxic and the Pens were struggling to stay in the playoff race with a 27-25-5 record.

DB just needs to get the team over the playoff hump, and as we've both acknowledged, he hasn't even been the main reason for the team's playoff failures. Therrien was undeniably the problem in '09, so I don't see the situations as being analogous.

It would be unwise (and potentially ruinous) to deny him an opportunity to coach once the obvious problems have been addressed. Let's be patient.

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01-26-2013, 06:09 PM
  #190
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Boy, I dunno about putting Tangradi with Crosby. Crosby's the quickest-thinking, quickest-acting player in the sport. Tangradi is by far the slowest on the team.

Not even talking about foot speed, which could be another problem. It takes ET forever to figure out simple things (the D just threw the puck along the boards...wonder what I should do...hmm...oh yeah, I'm supposed to skate over there and pressure the D). I just don't think he'd be ready for any pass, let alone what to do when he got one.

Dupuis isn't exactly slow to react, but Sid surprises him once or twice a shift, which is why he boots so many passes. With Tangradi it would be much, much worse.

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01-26-2013, 06:10 PM
  #191
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Boy, I dunno about putting Tangradi with Crosby. Crosby's the quickest-thinking, quickest-acting player in the sport. Tangradi is by far the slowest on the team.

Not even talking about foot speed, which could be another problem. It takes ET forever to figure out simple things (the D just threw the puck along the boards...wonder what I should do...hmm...oh yeah, I'm supposed to skate over there and pressure the D). I just don't think he'd be ready for any pass, let alone what to do when he got one.

Dupuis isn't exactly slow to react, but Sid surprises him once or twice a shift, which is why he boots so many passes. With Tangradi it would be much, much worse.
I'm only suggesting Tangradi being on Crosby's line because when he's been there, he's actually looked better than when he's been anywhere else in the lineup, and they have created pressure in the offensive zone.

I'm just going by what I actually see with my own eyes.

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01-26-2013, 06:27 PM
  #192
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You know, I was thinking about how badly Noel outcoached DB yesterday in a tactical sense since last night, but maybe it's simpler than that. In each game, the Penguins have had a good first period and gotten sloppier from there. Theoretically, that could be rust or conditioning, but that -should- be effecting every team equally.
In what way was Bylsma outcoached last night? People say this every time we lose a game and it's lost all meaning to me. One of their goals was from Cooke making an uncharacteristic turnover, another was after an idiotic penalty by Malkin that led to a seeing eye goal from the blueline by Byfuglien. If you want to talk about scoring chances that didn't lead to goals, we had more of those.

I also have a newsflash for some people: when you have a multiple goal lead, prepare to get outplayed by the other team as they shift into a more aggressive mindset where they're looking to pinch and take chances at every opportunity. I'm tired of people looking at how the opposing team plays when they're behind to determine who got the better of it. If you're not outshooting other teams when you're trailing, you're a terrible team. It's as simple as that.

Ultimately the narrative that Bylsma can't adjust is a farce, much like the "he can't beat good teams' narrative of 09-10 which turned out to be much ado about nothing. But at least that was based on facts at the time and not selective memory. Bylsma can't adjust, eh? Last year we had the highest winning percentage when trailing after two periods. When leading after two, we were 6th in winning percentage.

I'm also tired of hearing about how Bylsma isn't the right coach for Crosby and Malkin, who have both been at their best under his tenure, as have countless other players. Don't blame Bylsma for Malkin not playing the two way game he's capable of when Crosby is a much better all around player under Bylsma than he used to be.

There are legit criticisms of Bylsma as a coach. I even laid them out in my first post ITT. But the false narratives I see perpetuated ad nauseum on here have got to stop.

People also have to be mindful of the time frame we're working with. A couple years seem like an eternity to us, but it's really not. We've had two legitimate chances to contend for the Cup since 09', not ten like people make it seem. I've seen a handful of these same posters calling for Tomlin's head after getting to two Superbowls and winning one of them since 2008. I don't know what the hell is in the water down in Pittsburgh, but you guys have absurd expectations about your coaches in pro sports.

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01-26-2013, 06:42 PM
  #193
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I really don't understand why Bylsma can't get Bennett the 5 games before his ELC has a year burned with Sid just to see what he can do.

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01-26-2013, 06:43 PM
  #194
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Bylsma got outcoached the last three playoff rounds. I have no problem stating that again. And again.

If we're a .500 team by the end of february then there better be a coaching change in addition to a couple roster moves.

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01-26-2013, 06:45 PM
  #195
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Bylsma got outcoached the last three playoff rounds. I have no problem stating that again. And again.

If we're a .500 team by the end of february then there better be a coaching change in addition to a couple roster moves.
Do the roster moves first. If we're still struggling after that then it's clear it's not the roster. It's the management.

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01-26-2013, 06:51 PM
  #196
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I really don't understand why Bylsma can't get Bennett the 5 games before his ELC has a year burned with Sid just to see what he can do.
Bennett's in the pros already -- His deal has already started and will be up in 3 years, regardless of how much time he spends with WBS or the big club.

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01-26-2013, 06:52 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Bylsma got outcoached the last three playoff rounds. I have no problem stating that again. And again.

If we're a .500 team by the end of february then there better be a coaching change in addition to a couple roster moves.
If only stating something repeatedly made it true.

Tell me, how is it symptomatic of DB being outcoached in the Tampa series when his goalie lets in 9 goals on 58 shots in the last 3 games while the other goalie lets in 4 on 98?

How could he have coached differently to earn a win when Fleury is letting in twice as many goals as Roloson on half as many shots? I'm genuinely curious.

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01-26-2013, 06:54 PM
  #198
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One thing that was consistent in both the Tampa and Philly series -- the PK was awful, and the necessary coaching adjustments weren't made.

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01-26-2013, 06:54 PM
  #199
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Bylsma got outcoached the last three playoff rounds. I have no problem stating that again. And again.

If we're a .500 team by the end of february then there better be a coaching change in addition to a couple roster moves.
There's that word again. When we lose, it's because we've been outcoached. Of course, if we win, it's because of the excellent roster we have that everybody agrees has glaring holes.

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01-26-2013, 06:59 PM
  #200
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Bennett's in the pros already -- His deal has already started and will be up in 3 years, regardless of how much time he spends with WBS or the big club.
I read that if a player plays 6 games or more this year for the NHL team it burns a year of their ELC. So we could see him up for 5 games?

Edit: I think I get what you mean now. I was thinking of something else.

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