If only stating something repeatedly made it true.
Tell me, how is it symptomatic of DB being outcoached in the Tampa series when his goalie lets in 9 goals on 58 shots in the last 3 games while the other goalie lets in 4 on 98?
How could he have coached differently to earn a win when Fleury is letting in twice as many goals as Roloson on half as many shots? I'm genuinely curious.
Please, that stat is skewed as **** from the meltdown in game 5. Fleury played an average game in game 6 and allowed one in game 7.
We were up 3-1 in the series.
We win the Philly series if DB adjusts his PK strategy. As bad as Fleury was. As bad as Martin was. That series was lost by special teams. Keep Philly even to 25% on the PP and we have the ES production to win.
Please, that stat is skewed as **** from the meltdown in game 5. Fleury played an average game in game 6 and allowed one in game 7.
We were up 3-1 in the series.
We win the Philly series if DB adjusts his PK strategy. As bad as Fleury was. As bad as Martin was. That series was lost by special teams. Keep Philly even to 25% on the PP and we have the ES production to win.
It's not "skewed". Fleury's meltdown cost Game 5. 4 ES goals on 14 shots clearly wasn't coaching.
How is Game 6 average? 4 ES goals on 21 shots is an .810 SV%, man! It only looks good next to the previous game, which was an abomination.
Fleury was good in Game 7, though not good enough. That's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits
One thing that was consistent in both the Tampa and Philly series -- the PK was awful, and the necessary coaching adjustments weren't made.
After the Pens went up 3-1 in the series, the Lightning didn't score a single significant PP goal. They scored 3 PP goals in the final 3 games, all in Game 5, and all after they had already gone up 4-0.
It's not "skewed". Fleury's meltdown cost Game 5. 4 ES goals on 14 shots clearly wasn't coaching.
How is Game 6 average? 4 ES goals on 21 shots is an .810 SV%, man! It only looks good next to the previous game, which was an abomination.
Fleury was good in Game 7, though not good enough. That's it.
Fleury could have been better. Not saying anything to the contrary. He could have been better in the last three playoff rounds. I don't care to defend Fleury b/c he's bailed out on us far too often.
If you want to chalk up the Montreal series to a tired team and a magical Halak, then fine. If you want to say we lacked the firepower to win one more game in a 3-1 playoff series, fine.
But we lost to Philly b/c of careless defense, **** goaltending and god awful special teams. DB is in charge of getting the team prepared for the posteason. Team defense wasn't there. It's his job to put his best players in positions to succeed. He made little to no effort to get Couturier away from Malkin. And get Sid out against the slower D pairing in Grossman/Coburn. Let alone his inexcusable PK against Philly.
It's one thing if you want to give the guy a chance to succeed with a full roster in the postseason. But it's another to deny his numerous errors in the past.
I for one, don't care to have a guy learn on the job while we're in the prime years of Sid/Geno. If he shows signs of improving, great. But if we're not in the conference finals this year with a healthy lineup, he better be gone.
I for one, don't care to have a guy learn on the job while we're in the prime years of Sid/Geno. If he shows signs of improving, great. But if we're not in the conference finals this year with a healthy lineup, he better be gone.
Who is this coach you have in mind that has a track record of success every year and never underperforms with the talent they have? And why hasn't Columbus signed him yet?
If you want to chalk up the Montreal series to a tired team and a magical Halak, then fine. If you want to say we lacked the firepower to win one more game in a 3-1 playoff series, fine.
Montreal, yep. Tampa, yep, we lacked the firepower and goaltending to close them out, even though I believe adding Tango and Engelland would've helped our chances.
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But we lost to Philly b/c of careless defense, **** goaltending and god awful special teams. DB is in charge of getting the team prepared for the posteason. Team defense wasn't there. It's his job to put his best players in positions to succeed. He made little to no effort to get Couturier away from Malkin. And get Sid out against the slower D pairing in Grossman/Coburn. Let alone his inexcusable PK against Philly.
I completely, 100% agree. DB was a major reason why we lost that ONE series. But very few of our players are without blame for the Philly result last year.
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It's one thing if you want to give the guy a chance to succeed with a full roster in the postseason. But it's another to deny his numerous errors in the past.
I for one, don't care to have a guy learn on the job while we're in the prime years of Sid/Geno. If he shows signs of improving, great. But if we're not in the conference finals this year with a healthy lineup, he better be gone.
I wouldn't be as absolute as that, but yes, we need better results from DB and the team.
Who is this coach you have in mind that has a track record of success every year and never underperforms with the talent they have? And why hasn't Columbus signed him yet?
I'm not allowed to criticize a coach without having to give you a list of possible replacements? I don't know who's available bud.
And yes, no one is perfect. But every coach has an expiration date. Bringing in someone who will instill discipline and give the players a system of structured defensive hockey. Doesn't have to be a hall of famer. We've seen what a change in coaching can do for a team. Twice in the past 4 years it's led to Cup wins.
Who is this coach you have in mind that has a track record of success every year and never underperforms with the talent they have? And why hasn't Columbus signed him yet?
I'm not allowed to criticize a coach without having to give you a list of possible replacements? I don't know who's available bud.
And yes, no one is perfect. But every coach has an expiration date. Bringing in someone who will instill discipline and give the players a system of structured defensive hockey. Doesn't have to be a hall of famer. We've seen what a change in coaching can do for a team. Twice in the past 4 years it's led to Cup wins.
Well, presumably we don't want to bring in a worse coach. Contrary to what some may want to believe, Bylsma is not the worst coach in pro hockey.
I'm not allowed to criticize a coach without having to give you a list of possible replacements? I don't know who's available bud.
Well squirt (see what I did there?), if you're going to place high expectations on a coach and fire him if he doesn't meet them, I would hope that you have somebody in mind to take his place. Presumably it would be an experienced coach, since you don't want anybody 'learning on the job' during Sid and Geno's prime. That should narrow your list down.
Quote:
And yes, no one is perfect. But every coach has an expiration date. Bringing in someone who will instill discipline and give the players a system of structured defensive hockey. Doesn't have to be a hall of famer. We've seen what a change in coaching can do for a team. Twice in the past 4 years it's led to Cup wins.
Terry Murray and Michel Therrien got fired because they were running their teams into the ground. If Bylsma does the same thing, then we'll talk.
By the way, what other coaches do you think should be fired this season if they don't say, make the conference finals?
Well squirt (see what I did there?), if you're going to place high expectations on a coach and fire him if he doesn't meet them, I would hope that you have somebody in mind to take his place. Presumably it would be an experienced coach, since you don't want anybody 'learning on the job' during Sid and Geno's prime. That should narrow your list down.
Terry Murray and Michel Therrien got fired because they were running their teams into the ground. If Bylsma does the same thing, then we'll talk.
By the way, what other coaches do you think should be fired this season if they don't say, make the conference finals?
Babcock. When's the last time he even won a playoff round with such stacked teams? One of the things I look forward to the most this season is how they'll do without Lidstrom.
For those who say Bylsma's not part of the problem, then what *is* the problem? And how do you suggest going about fixing it? I'm genuinely curious to hear another perspective on why this team has underachieved the past three playoffs, and why they have numerous games like the past two games.
I don't look at it like a Catch-22. Bylsma staying at the helm isn't an untenable situation - he's been great in the regular season and by all accounts the players are on board with his message. At the end of Therrien's run the atmosphere was toxic and the Pens were struggling to stay in the playoff race with a 27-25-5 record.
DB just needs to get the team over the playoff hump, and as we've both acknowledged, he hasn't even been the main reason for the team's playoff failures. Therrien was undeniably the problem in '09, so I don't see the situations as being analogous.
It would be unwise (and potentially ruinous) to deny him an opportunity to coach once the obvious problems have been addressed. Let's be patient.
I found that argument a lot more persuasive last year. I don't blame or even think it's unreasonable for anyone to think (hope) that argument still applies with equal or close to equal merit. I just don't.
By the way, be careful about confusing the players like for Bylsma and dislike for Therrien with the more glaring issue when it came to Therrien at the end. Players didn't stop buying his message because they thought he was a jerk. That may have accelerated the process (in the opposite way that people liking Bylsma buys him goodwill), but they stopped buying a message because they played like a team that felt as if they were put at a competitive disadvantage pretty much every game. Whether a coach is a jerk or the nicest guy in the world or no matter how the team is constructed, the symptoms of a team that has a coaching problem always look the same on the ice. And, in that respect, there's very little difference between the team's play for its last 20-25 games and the last 20-25 games before Therrien was fired.
Fleury could have been better. Not saying anything to the contrary. He could have been better in the last three playoff rounds. I don't care to defend Fleury b/c he's bailed out on us far too often.
If you want to chalk up the Montreal series to a tired team and a magical Halak, then fine. If you want to say we lacked the firepower to win one more game in a 3-1 playoff series, fine.
But we lost to Philly b/c of careless defense, **** goaltending and god awful special teams. DB is in charge of getting the team prepared for the posteason. Team defense wasn't there. It's his job to put his best players in positions to succeed. He made little to no effort to get Couturier away from Malkin. And get Sid out against the slower D pairing in Grossman/Coburn. Let alone his inexcusable PK against Philly.
It's one thing if you want to give the guy a chance to succeed with a full roster in the postseason. But it's another to deny his numerous errors in the past.
I for one, don't care to have a guy learn on the job while we're in the prime years of Sid/Geno. If he shows signs of improving, great. But if we're not in the conference finals this year with a healthy lineup, he better be gone.
Don't even get me started on Bylsma's personnel decisions in that Montreal series. After a meh opening series and first few games, Bylsma, like the year before with game 3, decided to make a radical change for game 5. He put Talbot and Dupuis on a line with Malkin and the useless Ukranians on the bench. Odd thing happened: Malkin totally killed it that game. Totally dictated the pace almost single-handledly like game 3 Washington the year before. The whole team fed off it.
But, then, in the third period, it was decided that Sid was having a tough time with Kunitz and Guerin. So, Guerin and Dupuis were flipped. Sid did zip. Malkin played o'k. Pens finished off the game to take a 3-2 series lead. Game six, Bylsma kept the lines. Guerin 'guerined' Malkin, Sid continued to struggle, and both useless Ukranians were back for game 7.
In game five, second period, I'm thinking to myself 'Talbot is back with Geno again, this time with Dupuis, and that old hail mary is working again'. And, then, when it worked, Bylsma abandoned it because, even though the team was totally feeding off it, Sid wasn't scoring (and, in case any idiot thinks otherwise, that's me blaming Bylsma, not Sid).
****, in 2010, I'm not even sure the Pens make that second round without Sid having a herculean individual effort against Ottawa and Gonchar/Geno playing pass, shoot, score on the PP.
In 2011, as I've said, it's a trickier situation. We can debate it, but nobody should question the validity of giving a pass for that.
In 2012, Bylsma was taken to the coaching woodshed. Line matchups, adjustments, etc. Yeah, Fleury blew chunks. So did Bryz. And the series wasn't even close although the quality (or lack of quality) of goaltending was pretty close.
Were back the country club. He makes line to please sid, not to have a better team. Malkin is our best player, give him kunitz and give him the line to steam roll teams and open space for Sids line.
Were 90s country club, thats it thats all. Its on every one not just DB.
I'm not allowed to criticize a coach without having to give you a list of possible replacements? I don't know who's available bud.
And yes, no one is perfect. But every coach has an expiration date. Bringing in someone who will instill discipline and give the players a system of structured defensive hockey. Doesn't have to be a hall of famer. We've seen what a change in coaching can do for a team. Twice in the past 4 years it's led to Cup wins.
****, I remember people using the 'he just got you to the finals, who better do you have' excuse for Therrien four years ago. When Bylsma was picked as his replacement, it actually took me a minute or two to place the name (). What the people who make this myopic argument fail to grasp is that a team is a fluid thing. Players change. The freshness wears off. The coaches who last longer adapt. Those who don't, even the good ones, are gone within three years, give or take.
The harsh truth is this: Coaches are hired to be fired, and they usually take an organization like a pendulum. Therrien was hired to introduce structure and discipline. He did it. And, then, like with any other coach, it became too much. Enter Bylsma, to move the pendulum in the other direction. In 2009, he moved it just enough, and the stars were in alignment. Thereafter, he's just kept moving it. A great coach, the guys who stay in jobs for years, recognize when they've swung too much in one direction and can pull it back some. Most can't do that, and the guy who was brilliant just a few years ago becomes wrong for precisely the reasons he once seemed so right. It's just how it works.
Were back the country club. He makes line to please sid, not to have a better team. Malkin is our best player, give him kunitz and give him the line to steam roll teams and open space for Sids line.
Were 90s country club, thats it thats all. Its on every one not just DB.
Let's try to leave Kunitz and Tangradi and Sid vs. Geno out of this.
Personally, I'm at the point where I'd just like someone to explain to me why Dan Bylsma is the right coach-- right now-- for this team. Best I've gotten is the players like him, each of the last three years the team wasn't healthy and he deserves a chance, personnel moves will help, have faith, and stuff like that.
What I haven't heard is what about Dan Bylsma the tactician or bench manager puts the players into the best possible position to make plays night in and night out. Having faith won't buy back a year of Sid and Geno's primes if wasted yet again, nor will being 'fair' to or the likeability of Bylsma.
Were back the country club. He makes line to please sid, not to have a better team. Malkin is our best player, give him kunitz and give him the line to steam roll teams and open space for Sids line.
Were 90s country club, thats it thats all. Its on every one not just DB.
I really don't understand how taking Kunitz away from Sid is going to help our overall depth. Your suggestion would see Malkin's line do a lot of scoring, while Sid's line would revert to being a glorified checking line with the occasional God-mode game from Sid seeing him produce on his own.
Malkin's already got the best winger on the team, by far. How's that catering to Crosby?
I really don't understand how taking Kunitz away from Sid is going to help our overall depth. Your suggestion would see Malkin's line do a lot of scoring, while Sid's line would revert to being a glorified checking line with the occasional God-mode game from Sid seeing him produce on his own.
Malkin's already got the best winger on the team, by far. How's that catering to Crosby?
And, again, let me add: Let's leave this out of it. If people want to argue preference for vets and things like that, fine. But, let's leave the tangential **** like this out of this thread.
This is about Bylsma as a coach. How much he plays or doesn't play Tangradi or where he plays Kunitz only should be relevant IF one is arguing them as part of a greater issue with Bylsma as a coach (e.g., citing Tangradi as an example of Bylsma's preference for vets, although, IMO, Despres and Bortuzzo's treatments are much better examples).
EDIT: By the way, I do want this to be a GOOD and BAD thread. If someone sees something that Bylsma does GOOD against Ottawa in terms of a tweak to the gameplan, an in game adjustment, a shrewd move to exploit or avoid a matchup, then please and by all means post it here.
I really don't understand how taking Kunitz away from Sid is going to help our overall depth. Your suggestion would see Malkin's line do a lot of scoring, while Sid's line would revert to being a glorified checking line with the occasional God-mode game from Sid seeing him produce on his own.
Malkin's already got the best winger on the team, by far. How's that catering to Crosby?
Crosby played well last year with out Kunitz, and I feel partly was because teams had to go all in against the Malkin line. Currently teams seem to evenly distribute their efforts against the Malkin and sid line since neither is THAT dangerous.
Also I will admit this may be some what knee jerk reacting in regards to how AWFUL he is playing this year, and perhaps a change may be whats needed.
And the post about the Pendulum seems rather accurate. The players have matured now, and we need a tactician. DB's uses of time outs just seem to sum up his tactical efforts.
I think he outcoached Boucher for 4 games in 2011. Or, maybe he coached, and Boucher wasn't expecting that. Either way, your point is taken.
And I refuted the idea that Boucher somehow countered Bylsma the last 3 games of that series. The "counter" was that Fleury started letting in goals at an absurd rate, and Roloson didn't.
Like I said, 9 in 58 to 4 in 98. We don't need to delve into tactics to figure out what swung that series.
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney
For those who say Bylsma's not part of the problem, then what *is* the problem? And how do you suggest going about fixing it? I'm genuinely curious to hear another perspective on why this team has underachieved the past three playoffs, and why they have numerous games like the past two games.
Our overriding problems over the past 3 series is that our goalie stank and we didn't have the complementary scoring to aid our stars when they were keyed in on. The specific problems vs. Philly were outlined pretty well by mpp9 earlier on the page (including Bylsma). A blanket "Blame Bylsma" theme doesn't apply through all our playoff losses. There have been other determining factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK
I found that argument a lot more persuasive last year. I don't blame or even think it's unreasonable for anyone to think (hope) that argument still applies with equal or close to equal merit. I just don't.
If I understand this right, you don't give coaches much rope.
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By the way, be careful about confusing the players like for Bylsma and dislike for Therrien with the more glaring issue when it came to Therrien at the end. Players didn't stop buying his message because they thought he was a jerk. That may have accelerated the process (in the opposite way that people liking Bylsma buys him goodwill), but they stopped buying a message because they played like a team that felt as if they were put at a competitive disadvantage pretty much every game. Whether a coach is a jerk or the nicest guy in the world or no matter how the team is constructed, the symptoms of a team that has a coaching problem always look the same on the ice. And, in that respect, there's very little difference between the team's play for its last 20-25 games and the last 20-25 games before Therrien was fired.
I won't pretend to know what players think, but I haven't seen anything at all to suggest they feel that way about DB's system. Whenever they're quoted in the media, they're certainly never taking issue with it. In fact they're pretty uniform in wanting to play "the right way".
The last 25 games including playoffs the Pens have been 14-10-1. Therrien's last 25 games were 10-14-1. An 8 point swing and drastically different attitudes suggest the two situations aren't nearly as close as you suggest.
And I refuted the idea that Boucher somehow countered Bylsma the last 3 games of that series. The "counter" was that Fleury started letting in goals at an absurd rate, and Roloson didn't.
Like I said, 9 in 58 to 4 in 98. We don't need to delve into tactics to figure out what swung that series.
Our overriding problems over the past 3 series is that our goalie stank and we didn't have the complementary scoring to aid our stars when they were keyed in on. The specific problems vs. Philly were outlined pretty well by mpp9 earlier on the page (including Bylsma). A blanket "Blame Bylsma" theme doesn't apply through all our playoff losses. There have been other determining factors.
If I understand this right, you don't give coaches much rope.
I won't pretend to know what players think, but I haven't seen anything at all to suggest they feel that way about DB's system. Whenever they're quoted in the media, they're certainly never taking issue with it. In fact they're pretty uniform in wanting to play "the right way".
The last 25 games including playoffs the Pens have been 14-10-1. Therrien's last 25 games were 10-14-1. An 8 point swing and drastically different attitudes suggest the two situations aren't nearly as close as you suggest.
1. The counter actually was an adjustment in where they set up the 1-3-1 (a little back, if memory serves, to take away/disrupt the stretch passes).
2. What exactly do you want players to say but 'we need to play the right way'? I mean, if they like Bylsma personally, do you expect to hear Brooks Orpik style 'anonymous' rumblings like he did with his buddy Therrien? I don't think it works this way.
I'd like to add this: Notwithstanding how I 'lean', perhaps a little hard right now, on this, it doesn't mean that I'm unpersuaded as to what your saying and even that it arguably could be the best course. I suspect it's the same way in reverse for you. Like me, you're torn, hoping for the best, and really the difference here is how we're leaning right now. Am I reading that right, or do you genuinely see differently than me what's happened in the last 25 games, from a coaching perspective, with this team?
Crosby played well last year with out Kunitz, and I feel partly was because teams had to go all in against the Malkin line. Currently teams seem to evenly distribute their efforts against the Malkin and sid line since neither is THAT dangerous.
Also I will admit this may be some what knee jerk reacting in regards to how AWFUL he is playing this year, and perhaps a change may be whats needed.
And the post about the Pendulum seems rather accurate. The players have matured now, and we need a tactician. DB's uses of time outs just seem to sum up his tactical efforts.
Edit: My bad Kirk, I'll leave it at this.
1. I appreciate it. I really do want to keep this civil and on track, because I'd like to hear from guys like Cole and Jiggy after the games what they're seeing in terms of game planning and bench management.
Were back the country club. He makes line to please sid, not to have a better team. Malkin is our best player, give him kunitz and give him the line to steam roll teams and open space for Sids line.
Were 90s country club, thats it thats all. Its on every one not just DB.
I'm sure it pleases Sid to no end that he gets Kunitz and Dupuis while Malkin gets stuck with a First Team All-Star. Damn favoritism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK
Let's try to leave Kunitz and Tangradi and Sid vs. Geno out of this.
Personally, I'm at the point where I'd just like someone to explain to me why Dan Bylsma is the right coach-- right now-- for this team. Best I've gotten is the players like him, each of the last three years the team wasn't healthy and he deserves a chance, personnel moves will help, have faith, and stuff like that.
What I haven't heard is what about Dan Bylsma the tactician or bench manager puts the players into the best possible position to make plays night in and night out. Having faith won't buy back a year of Sid and Geno's primes if wasted yet again, nor will being 'fair' to or the likeability of Bylsma.
Because he wins a lot, the players are on point with his message, and previous playoff losses can be attributed to other, greater determining factors which will both likely be addressed before the next post-season.
His baffling line combinations. i.e. Glass/Malkin/Adams. Really?
His love affair with vets/poor handling of younger players.
Refusal to make in-game adjustments.
His system, if you want to call it that at this point.
). What the people who make this myopic argument fail to grasp is that a team is a fluid thing. Players change. The freshness wears off. The coaches who last longer adapt. Those who don't, even the good ones, are gone within three years, give or take.
