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02-04-2013, 10:42 PM
  #151
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We have an abundance of guys in Grand rapids that should be brought up and given a chance before we trade for someone. They need to let these guys experience the bigger, stronger, faster NHL game to see if they have the chops. Even Cleary was brought in on the 3rd and 4th line till he found his stride.
Perhaps management thinks it's not yet time to see what these guys have in store. Perhaps they have a plan to slowly bring these guys in in an orderly and structured manner. And perhaps a one or two year contract isn't going to derail this plan, and is better for the team in the short term than throwing too many inexperienced players into the fire.

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02-05-2013, 12:06 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Perhaps management thinks it's not yet time to see what these guys have in store. Perhaps they have a plan to slowly bring these guys in in an orderly and structured manner. And perhaps a one or two year contract isn't going to derail this plan, and is better for the team in the short term than throwing too many inexperienced players into the fire.
This was a fine plan when you had very little to worry about in terms of playoffs. I understand not bringing a ton a long at once, but they need to do what is best to help this team win. Right now there is an argument they might not be doing this. Also they used to bring these kids in over people come playoff time and I like seeing that as well.

The scary version of this story is they really aren't good enough to earn these spots. In which case we need to start shipping them. I don't really believe that and the Wings don't say that about them, but at somepoint if we are fighting for the playoffs and these guys can contribute some of the old standby guys are going to have to hit the waiver wire for virtually nothing. It just seems like a struggle in asset management at this point or they are blowing smoke on how good these guys really are and appear to be.

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02-05-2013, 12:19 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Perhaps management thinks it's not yet time to see what these guys have in store. Perhaps they have a plan to slowly bring these guys in in an orderly and structured manner. And perhaps a one or two year contract isn't going to derail this plan, and is better for the team in the short term than throwing too many inexperienced players into the fire.
I dont think its any secret that a lot of us armchair GM's are cooling on KH's recent lack of activity in the management area. The way to do it, is to fold one or two of the younger guys in over the course of a few months, I know its much tougher during a shortened year, but if you only do it for a certain time frame, the vets should be able to cover for them. The younger guys need to see how quickly plays happen at the upper level, see how defenses set up, read and react. Thats part of the process. The way the Wings have been doing it for the last ten or so years, seems like they value known vets in the twilight of their careers and it has out prospects languishing until they are either too used to the lower level play or they move on to other teams who are willing to give them a shot.

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02-05-2013, 08:01 AM
  #154
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The redwings development system was so effective because the team was so stacked before all these lockouts and new cap systems were put in place. They did some unbeleivable drafting and had the luxury of letting prospects very slowly earn their sports because the team remained stacked season after season. That system has broken down now that the vets are either too old to be effective or flat out retiring. At some point the wings are going to have to bring their prospects in earlier and stop signing filler players.

There are too many free agent fillers on the team right now that are put into positions above what they can bring. It used to make sense where wings would sign a filler here and there but now the fillers look like total desperation to fill the bench. Quincy and Sammuleson? Really?

I think that Cleary is riding the playoff warrior waggon. That is where he seems to really step up his game. I think there are other players on the team like Quincy and Sammuleson that could be targetted to make room for prospects before Cleary.

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02-05-2013, 08:46 AM
  #155
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The redwings development system was so effective because the team was so stacked before all these lockouts and new cap systems were put in place. They did some unbeleivable drafting and had the luxury of letting prospects very slowly earn their sports because the team remained stacked season after season. That system has broken down now that the vets are either too old to be effective or flat out retiring. At some point the wings are going to have to bring their prospects in earlier and stop signing filler players.

There are too many free agent fillers on the team right now that are put into positions above what they can bring. It used to make sense where wings would sign a filler here and there but now the fillers look like total desperation to fill the bench. Quincy and Sammuleson? Really?

I think that Cleary is riding the playoff warrior waggon. That is where he seems to really step up his game. I think there are other players on the team like Quincy and Sammuleson that could be targetted to make room for prospects before Cleary.
Call him a playoff "warrior" all you want but that doesn't change the fact he's completely useless. I'd rather keep the players who can actually contribute to the success of the team over an ineffective player who's known for playing well in the playoffs.

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02-05-2013, 12:25 PM
  #156
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I think that Cleary is riding the playoff warrior waggon. That is where he seems to really step up his game. I think there are other players on the team like Quincy and Sammuleson that could be targetted to make room for prospects before Cleary.
He maybe was a great playoff warrior in the past, but the last two seasons has been pretty weak because of injuries. And now, after that knee surgery, I was really hopeful he could get his old self back, but that doesn't look like it at all.

Imo, he is done. Thank god his contract isn't any longer.

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02-05-2013, 03:47 PM
  #157
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Thank god his contract isn't any longer.
Yet... an extension with a NTC is just around the corner...

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02-05-2013, 03:56 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Perhaps management thinks it's not yet time to see what these guys have in store. Perhaps they have a plan to slowly bring these guys in in an orderly and structured manner. And perhaps a one or two year contract isn't going to derail this plan, and is better for the team in the short term than throwing too many inexperienced players into the fire.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that our good prospects aren't waiting behind star players, they are stuck behind a bunch of guys wallowing in mediocrity. And by continuing to put off rolling young players into the NHL roster, KH is only creating a bottleneck of prospects with more guys each year knocking on the door.

I think it's ideal to have a bunch of veteran guys on your team for the young guys to learn from, and that's the case for the Wings. But at some point, the top young guys have to play for the Wings. Putting that off just delays those guys acclimating their game to the NHL level if they are ready, and that likely snowballs into delaying other talented young guys from hitting the Wings lineup.

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02-05-2013, 04:03 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
The problem with this line of reasoning is that our good prospects aren't waiting behind star players, they are stuck behind a bunch of guys wallowing in mediocrity. And by continuing to put off rolling young players into the NHL roster, KH is only creating a bottleneck of prospects with more guys each year knocking on the door.
There is no problem with this line of reasoning. If you look forward to next year, and the year after that relative to when the Ouellets and the Ferraros are ready, contracts expire at the best time of convenience. There is a clear plan to break these prospects in starting next year, every year. It doesn't involve throwing them to the wolves this year.

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02-05-2013, 04:09 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
There is no problem with this line of reasoning. If you look forward to next year, and the year after that relative to when the Ouellets and the Ferraros are ready, contracts expire at the best time of convenience. There is a clear plan to break these prospects in starting next year, every year. It doesn't involve throwing them to the wolves this year.
Except it's not "throwing them to the wolves" if their game is NHL-ready, they have been great for a while at the AHL level, and there are only average to below-average vets playing in their place with the Wings. Burying them in the minors doesn't let them acclimate to the NHL game, meaning you are delaying their ability to help the team win. Have them up this season with the Wings so that they are better players next year, and you're saving cap space (team MVP) to use on high profile vets.

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02-05-2013, 07:41 PM
  #161
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Except it's not "throwing them to the wolves" if their game is NHL-ready, they have been great for a while at the AHL level, and there are only average to below-average vets playing in their place with the Wings. Burying them in the minors doesn't let them acclimate to the NHL game, meaning you are delaying their ability to help the team win. Have them up this season with the Wings so that they are better players next year, and you're saving cap space (team MVP) to use on high profile vets.
Right on the money.

Unfortunately the majority of the people on here are very short-sighted and won't see it this way.

The same people who were complaining that Smith doesn't look as good as they would like, will be complaining when Nyquist or Tatar join the club and don't look as good as they expect. Not realizing that it's because they had their development staggered playing in a league where they have nothing left to gain, and should all have more NHL games to date than they currently have.

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02-05-2013, 09:00 PM
  #162
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This team needs 100% less Dan Cleary.

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02-05-2013, 09:12 PM
  #163
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Cleary has a penalty a game average.

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02-05-2013, 09:15 PM
  #164
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Cleary has a penalty a game average.
And a no-point-per-game a game average.

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02-05-2013, 09:18 PM
  #165
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This team needs 100% less Dan Cleary.
Well they're more than halfway there, 'cuz they're only getting about 40% of Dan Cleary as it is...

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02-05-2013, 09:19 PM
  #166
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Jman's idea is to kick the can down the road.
He sounds like Congress dealing with the debt.
"Next Year we take of our debt (youth movement.) The economy needs our pork projects (Sammy and Quincey and Cleary)."

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02-05-2013, 09:26 PM
  #167
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Every time Danny Cleary is on the ice I expect either or penalty or a goal for the other team.

Please replace him with Eaves or Nyquist.


Do Holland and Babcock not see what see in regards to Cleary and Quincey?

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02-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #168
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I don't under stand the question? I only see him touching the backs of the other team as they blow by him!!!!

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02-05-2013, 11:03 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post

I think it's ideal to have a bunch of veteran guys on your team for the young guys to learn from, and that's the case for the Wings. But at some point, the top young guys have to play for the Wings. Putting that off just delays those guys acclimating their game to the NHL level if they are ready, and that likely snowballs into delaying other talented young guys from hitting the Wings lineup.
Every year that Nyquist and Tatar aren't playing up, is one less year that they have to learn from and be mentored by greats like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and other good leaders like Filppula and Helm.

That sounds like a great idea to me.

We used to pair legendary vets with promising youngsters. Datsyuk has always talked about how much he learned from players like Fedorov, Hull, Larionov, Yzerman. Zetterberg I'm sure did the same. Does anyone think you can play on the same team with a guy like Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg for 82 games a year and NOT become a better hockey player?

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02-05-2013, 11:11 PM
  #170
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Ps. I only saw a bit of the game but Tatar was a ****ing lightning bug out there busting his ass and making some smart plays. We need more lively legs like him ... give Cleary a bus ticket to Toledo.

**** our defence is bad ... not only defensivley ... but watching guy like Pav enter the zone, delay, make a dangle, and throw a puck back to Lashoff or Huskins only to have it bobbled, the line lost, or fired deep back in the zone (safe smart play) has to be frustrating when hes been doing give and goes and setting up beautiful lay-ins from Lids, Rafalski, Chelios, etc so far his entire career.

The only Dman we have right now with any poise walking the line with a puck on his stickis Kronwall and other teams know this so wingers will play high and give our dmen no respect with the puck. White should help with this as should Coliacovo.

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02-06-2013, 06:31 AM
  #171
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Except it's not "throwing them to the wolves" if their game is NHL-ready, they have been great for a while at the AHL level, and there are only average to below-average vets playing in their place with the Wings. Burying them in the minors doesn't let them acclimate to the NHL game, meaning you are delaying their ability to help the team win. Have them up this season with the Wings so that they are better players next year, and you're saving cap space (team MVP) to use on high profile vets.
Except for most of the year, they've been playing top six minutes with top six linemates. Next year, they'll get at least agreeable linemates rather than random assortments of Bottom six players. The plan is to bring them in next year, and then the next, and then the next, and then the next as contracts for our current roster slowly come off the books. I'm sorry you're so impatient and want them to come on the team now. They'll be on the team. Just hold your horses for once in your lifetime.

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02-06-2013, 07:35 AM
  #172
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Every time Danny Cleary is on the ice I expect either or penalty or a goal for the other team.
Or a turnover.

Seriously, you could say the same thing about Kronwall.

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02-06-2013, 11:30 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Except for most of the year, they've been playing top six minutes with top six linemates. Next year, they'll get at least agreeable linemates rather than random assortments of Bottom six players. The plan is to bring them in next year, and then the next, and then the next, and then the next as contracts for our current roster slowly come off the books.
Top 6 minutes in a league where they simply aren't going to improve nearly as much as they would playing against NHL competition. And you're missing the point about getting them up to speed sooner in the NHL, allowing them to assume larger roles sooner, make the team better, etc.... you know, that ol' chestnut.

You seem to have a low opinion of the prospects, or at least Gus and Tatar, but those guys are playmakers who can skate. And we have an absolute black hole of a 3rd line and 2nd PP that has sucked royally so far. That said, I want you to get ready for this one- either guy could actually make the bottom 6 better by playing 3rd line and help the 2nd PP! I know, I know, it sounds crazy that someone could make more of an impact than Cleary, Miller, Eaves, etc, but it's true.

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I'm sorry you're so impatient and want them to come on the team now. They'll be on the team. Just hold your horses for once in your lifetime.
I honestly had no idea that A) my mom posts on HF or B) she would have chosen your username (seems weird), but now this is just awkward.

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02-06-2013, 11:34 AM
  #174
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Every year that Nyquist and Tatar aren't playing up, is one less year that they have to learn from and be mentored by greats like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and other good leaders like Filppula and Helm.

That sounds like a great idea to me.

We used to pair legendary vets with promising youngsters. Datsyuk has always talked about how much he learned from players like Fedorov, Hull, Larionov, Yzerman. Zetterberg I'm sure did the same. Does anyone think you can play on the same team with a guy like Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg for 82 games a year and NOT become a better hockey player?
Lot of truth to that. Your last line definitely applies to Gus and Tatar this season, and obviously to what could/should have been with Smith learning from Lidstrom last season.

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02-06-2013, 11:56 AM
  #175
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Top 6 minutes in a league where they simply aren't going to improve nearly as much as they would playing against NHL competition. And you're missing the point about getting them up to speed sooner in the NHL, allowing them to assume larger roles sooner, make the team better, etc.... you know, that ol' chestnut.
Tatar came in last night and looked just perfectly fine and comfortable. Nyquist did the same last year. This opinion that being in the AHL=bad is exaggerated to the point of not being able to be taken seriously anymore.

Quote:
You seem to have a low opinion of the prospects, or at least Gus and Tatar
I prefer a more realistic view. I think they'll turn out to be studs, but throwing them on a bottom six line with bottom six scrubs and expecting their presence to magically make that line a high scoring threat is downright absurd.
Quote:
but those guys are playmakers who can skate. And we have an absolute black hole of a 3rd line and 2nd PP that has sucked royally so far. That said, I want you to get ready for this one- either guy could actually make the bottom 6 better by playing 3rd line and help the 2nd PP! I know, I know, it sounds crazy that someone could make more of an impact than Cleary, Miller, Eaves, etc, but it's true.
Imagine Pavel Datsyuk lined up with Drew Miller and Dan Cleary. Who's going to do the most offensive work on that line? Hint: Not Drew Miller and not Danny Cleary. This is the same scenario you get, to a very lesser degree with sticking Tatar/Nyquist in a bottom six role with bottom six players. It's not an optimal line to utilizing said offensive skill.

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