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Old
01-27-2013, 03:07 PM
  #126
Rslavinsky
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This could work for both teams, but I want to see it a three or four player deal with Pitt getting 2 players. I have no problem seeing Despres go to Minny along with a 4th round pick for Seto and ???

Despres is going to be a force in two or three seasons, and can make a minor impact now, Pens management doesn't like to give fair chances to players though, so if Despres is on the trading block its no surprise.

Maybe Gilbert Seto for Despres and 3rd??

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01-27-2013, 03:10 PM
  #127
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I think if you read the thread, every Wild fan has said anything BUT sure fire. We've called him enigmatic at best, as he struggles if he's asked to be the primary offensive threat on a line like he's been asked to be here. He succeeds in situations only...he needs an elite center. He hasn't had in Minnesota, and really hasn't had it in a few years. He was a 3rd liner in his last season with the Sharks, which is why his stats declined there as well...he thrived when centered by Thornton, and "should thrive"if centered by Crosby.

He succeeds as a secondary threat.
Setoguchi might regain his touch. But like you say, he's an enigma, and too much of one to make it worthwhile to deal a prospect like Despres. If he needs an elite center to produce, he's not going to do Minnesota much good, and I doubt any team with an elite center is going to pay a premium for him based on that premise.

I'd gladly pay for what he is. I would not pay for what he might be somewhere else in an ideal situation.

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01-27-2013, 03:10 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DeuceMN View Post
First: Zucker for Lovejoy is not the debate, and you are doing nothing but creating a straw man argument by using that as an example.

Second: Just because you do not value Seto because of the few stats you have seen, does not mean his value is not there. I have been disappointed with Seto these last two years for various reasons, but this does not mean he does not have decent value. He needs to be in certain situations to excell, and he has not been in those situations for the last couple years. He still has good skill and value.

He was also hit by a car last year while he was at his chiropractor. Thats right, a CAR. Some crazy person drove their bloody car into the office he was in and hit him.

Please do not undervalue Seto because you do not know much about him.
Zucker v. Lovejoy is certainly up for debate. A poster thinks NHL experienced players have greater value than prospects. I was seeing if he would do that deal.

He does have value. Just not a top flight young defenseman that has the skill set of Despres.

I undervalue him because he has slipped. He immediately slipped the year after his 30-goal season with the same players that got him to 30 goals on his line. I understand Minnesota couldn't score. Minnesota fans call him an enigma. Well, we have had our enigmas in Pittsburgh and acquire them. They don't work out too well.

You keep Seto, we keep Despres.

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01-27-2013, 03:16 PM
  #129
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And how many Wild games have you watched? You act like Despres is a blue-chip prospect while Seto is some useless scrub who is doomed to never even sniff 15 goals again in his career. Tons of players have potential but rarely does a player ever reach his full potential. Despres is likely to be a 2nd pairing defenseman for most of his career while Seto is a sold RH top-6 winger. Real NHL players carry more value than a similar prospect, that is the reality.

And claiming that Despres was the second best defenseman on a playoff team that had a record breakingly terrible performance really isn't adding much value to him.
Despres looked solid defensively. He wasn't the ones that made the mistakes that ended up in the back of the next.

I prefer to see what despres develops into than trading him for an enigma - not my word, I've seen it used with Wild fans. Is that such a bad thing? I'd prefer, if the play is to trade Despres, trade him along with a first and get someone significant -better then Seto. Is that hard to comprehend? I don't value Seto as high as everyone else does. Sorry. I have watched Wild games too. None this year, but the ones before this year and they bored me.

I think you need to define real NHL players. I think we might have different views on that definition. Sorry.

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01-27-2013, 03:20 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
He doesnt have to be the Seto from SJ, he just needs to fit on a line with Sid or Geno. if he only scores 30 points but opens up space for those two to score 100 points in a season its a good move in my book. You can not always go off of STATS to determine a players worth.

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01-27-2013, 03:22 PM
  #131
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I'd gladly pay for what he is. I would not pay for what he might be somewhere else in an ideal situation.
I agree!!

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01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Rslavinsky View Post
He doesnt have to be the Seto from SJ, he just needs to fit on a line with Sid or Geno. if he only scores 30 points but opens up space for those two to score 100 points in a season its a good move in my book. You can not always go off of STATS to determine a players worth.
Setoguchi is not going to open up space for anyone. He doesn't carry the puck, he's not big, and he's not overly physical.

Not to mention Crosby and Malkin are perfectly capable of scoring 100 points with what they have right now.

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01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #133
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No way Niskanen for Seto happens straight up. Despres for Setoguchi and maybe a 5th? might get it done

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01-27-2013, 03:32 PM
  #134
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You're not getting a true "difference maker" forward for a prospect that has potential.

Seto is also not htat bad of a forward. Let's not forget just how bad Minnesota's offence is. He potted 19 goals last year on the worst offensive team in the damned league. Minnesota's top line wass centered by either a 3C or a career AHL C for almost a third of the year.

A few stats never show the truth. You know of, and believe in your prospect, so you are giving him greater value than he actually has. Seto is not known to you, and you are making judgements based on a few stats.

I understand, and think it's great to love high potential prospects. Minnesota loves Granlund, but even his current trade value is limited because of his lack of experience.
I'm not a fan of trading one of our young puck moving blueliners unless we get a definite solution. Minnesota people can say how do you know Despres turns into this top flight blueliner? My response, how do you know Seto returns to his form in SJ, which is what you need to make this deal work IF you are Pittsburgh.

Seto is known to me. I have watched him since that 30-goal year. You make it sound like I'm the only cat pumping up my prospect or player. Sounds like Wild fans are pumping up a player that doesn't fit the piece in Minnesota. Is that a fair comment?

I put a high price tag on puck moving prospects like Despres. So do NHL GM's. Shero does as well. Look at his last two deals involving puck moving defensemen for Shero. Ryan Whitney to Anaheim for Chris Kunitz and Tangradi. While Tangradi has been a bust, Kunitz has done well. Whitney wasn't playing well at all when he was dealt either. Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen. I'm not expecting a Neal coming back. James Neal was basically on his way to a 30-goal season in Dallas before the deal. He was on the upswing of his career and brings a sense of physical play with him.

Besides, the Pens have something to deal with down the road. We have to resign Letang. If we do, someone is expendable. If we don't, one of these young kids will need to move up to the top pairing. With his experience by then and he is ahead of Morrow, Maata, Harrington, Pouliott, Despres can be that guy. No one will totally replace him if he leaves, but Despres has a skill set that I think could move up.

So, I pass ... and Pittsburgh should as well. We have a hole in our lineup. However, if certain players like Malkin get their heads out of their ***** and start playing instead of handing the puck over with lazy play, we can hide a hole. Despres to Minnesota would create a bigger hole - Lovejoy in the lineup and that is a huge hole.

Agree to disagee
Agree to disagree.

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01-27-2013, 03:35 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Despres was our best blueliner in the play-offs last year.
No he wasn't. He played well for a rookie and showed some promise. However, he was not our best blueliner.

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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
DHis potential is unlimited.
No it's not. He has great size and skating ability, but he's not shown "elite" ability in any area. A jack of all trades as someone fittingly said. He's likely to end up as a top 4 defensemen capable of playing on the first pairing and 2nd PP though.

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I'd rather have a potential second d-pairing D-man with size, good skating and a solid shot than a 26-year old player that once netted 30 goals and now all the sudden struggles to get in the high teens and 40 points.
Preferring to retain Despres over acquiring Setoguchi is certainly a valid opinion, but there's no need to run down Setoguchi and belittle his accomplishments without context in order to get your opinion across.

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With your philosophy, would you trade Jason Zucker for Ben Lovejoy? After all, Lovejoy has way more NHL experience than Zucker.
If Lovejoy had proven his NHL play was close to Zucker's ceiling, I'm sure he would've considered it. As it stands, there are miles between what Lovejoy has proven and Zucker's upside. If anything Lovejoy has proven he has nowhere near Zucker's upside.

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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
I don't buy automatically the NHL players value is higher than a prospect. This is an instance that says otherwise.
A proven commodity is more valuable than an unproven (a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush), but the upside of the players certainly comes into the evaluation.

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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
By the way, I'm not opposed to trading prospects away if you can package them with a pick to get a quality talent; a difference maker and long term answer in return. Seto isn't any of those.
I can agree with the first part of this paragraph, but I'm not sure there are any "significantly" better players than Setoguchi that could be available at a similar cost.

As for the idea of Despres for Setoguchi, I'm very intrigued. I would like to see more of both this season before I'd pull the trigger though. It's most certainly a proposal worth considering.

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01-27-2013, 03:38 PM
  #136
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I can agree with the first part of this paragraph, but I'm not sure there are any "significantly" better players than Setoguchi that could be available at a similar cost.

As for the idea of Despres for Setoguchi, I'm very intrigued. I would like to see more of both this season before I'd pull the trigger though. It's most certainly a proposal worth considering.
You can package Despres with a first and get a significantly better player and fit than Seto. First rounders always seem to make the return better, unless your GM is a complete idiot like Nashville's forking over a first for Gaustad.

Your last graph ... you might sound intrigued, but your hesitation to do it now speaks volumes.

Agree to disagree.

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01-27-2013, 03:45 PM
  #137
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Thank God you aren't the GM of the Pens. You can package Despres with a first and get a significantly better player then Seto.
Do you have any suggestion for such a player (as more than a rental), and a trade proposal that the other fan base might accept here at these boards?


I would be very interested in it if I thought it was possible, but at this point in time I don't find it very likely and as such I think we should explore other more likely possibilities .

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01-27-2013, 03:53 PM
  #138
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Do you have any suggestion for such a player (as more than a rental), and a trade proposal that the other fan base might accept here at these boards?

I would be very interested in it if I thought it was possible, but at this point in time I don't find it very likely and as such I think we should explore other more likely possibilities .
If we were to deal one of our high-end defense prospects for a wing upgrade, I'd much rather go after an elite UFA than an enigmatic guy under contract for a year or two.

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01-27-2013, 03:55 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
You can package Despres with a first and get a significantly better player and fit than Seto. First rounders always seem to make the return better, unless your GM is a complete idiot like Nashville's forking over a first for Gaustad.

Your last graph ... you might sound intrigued, but your hesitation to do it now speaks volumes.

Agree to disagree.
Like who?

You keep dodging that question..

David Poile is widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the league, he moved a first for Gaustad and a 4th... Sometimes you have to overpay at the deadline, and to get the player you need.. I'm really not sure why you keep taking shots at a GM who is irrelevant to the thread, and has credentials that put you to shame?

And his hesitation, I interpreted as him not seeing enough of Setoguchi to make an informed decision; you should try that sometime.

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01-27-2013, 03:56 PM
  #140
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Do you have any suggestion for such a player (as more than a rental), and a trade proposal that the other fan base might accept here at these boards?


I would be very interested in it if I thought it was possible, but at this point in time I don't find it very likely and as such I think we should explore other more likely possibilities .
No, not yet. There are holes in the lineup, but that deal makes a bigger hole. Why should I sit here and come up with a proposal on this board for others to accept? It's a waste of time. It's not like it comes into fruition. It's truly a joke really. 95% of these deals brought up by people are totally ridiculous to begin with.

I don't like dealing for rental players. If I'm dealing a young high end prospect, I look long term, not two month rental. Besides, who is truly available right now? Even Columbus has a chance for a play-off spot now. Who is selling off assets that could help, four games into a season? Not too many.

If Malkin shows up and is ready to play; instead of playing like he has - lazy and undisciplined, a hole is covered for the time being. Malkin and Neal are good enough to generate scoring opportunities, even if someone like Kennedy is with them. No TK isn't the guy you want there, but ...

You can see an obvious difference between Despres and who his replacement would be if he were traded. That, you can't hide.

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01-27-2013, 03:58 PM
  #141
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Like who?

You keep dodging that question..

David Poile is widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the league, he moved a first for Gaustad and a 4th... Sometimes you have to overpay at the deadline, and to get the player you need.. I'm really not sure why you keep taking shots at a GM who is irrelevant to the thread, and has credentials that put you to shame?

And his hesitation, I interpreted as him not seeing enough of Setoguchi to make an informed decision; you should try that sometime.
I have seen enough of him to make my informed opinion. I think he wants to see more of Despres, not Seto. I have no interest in watching Seto as a member of the Wild or Penguins from here on out. Agree to disagree

I'm not dodging anything. I see who I like, I see who I don't like. Making proposals on this site is totally worthless and a waste of time.

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01-27-2013, 03:59 PM
  #142
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And his hesitation, I interpreted as him not seeing enough of Setoguchi to make an informed decision; you should try that sometime.
That would be correct. I've only seen one Minnesota game so far this season, and I don't feel that's enough of a sample size to make up my mind. I would also like to see more of Despres.

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01-27-2013, 04:02 PM
  #143
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Unfortunately the time for the Penguins to win is now, if they dont win a cup or two over then next 2 or 3 seasons then they have failed. There are a few pieces missing in the lineup, and if this trade does happen AT LEAST they are making an effort. My guess is it doesnt happen. but we will know come 7pm when the Wild start their game. If Setoguchi is scratched look for a trade shortly there after. if he is in the line up than I call this rumor dead. either way the Pens need to at leastry something

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01-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  #144
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I have seen enough of him to make my informed opinion. I think he wants to see more of Despres, not Seto. I have no interest in watching Seto as a member of the Wild or Penguins from here on out. Agree to disagree

I'm not dodging anything. I see who I like, I see who I don't like. Making proposals on this site is totally worthless and a waste of time.
Why don't you answer my question then?

Name some better options and potential returns that would make sense for both Pittsburgh and whoever the other organization may be?

They're only worthless wastes of time when you expect top end talent without giving up anything significant...

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01-27-2013, 04:05 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Setoguchi is not going to open up space for anyone. He doesn't carry the puck, he's not big, and he's not overly physical.

Not to mention Crosby and Malkin are perfectly capable of scoring 100 points with what they have right now.
But he could open up the roster for this.

Kunitz, Crosby, Seto
Kennedy, Malkin, Neal
Cooke, Sutter, Dupuis
Glass, Vitale, Adams
Tangradi/*13th forward vet*

I could live with this, and I know some will balk at Kennedy not looking good against the Jets, but not to many did. I'd give a more proven Kennedy the call over guys who can't mustard up anything that meets progress playing next to Malkin and Neal. Who do you have after that? Dupuis, so that would be your tandem until the deadline.

Get your forward now and do the D-depth at the deadline.

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01-27-2013, 04:05 PM
  #146
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Why should I sit here and come up with a proposal on this board for others to accept? It's a waste of time. It's not like it comes into fruition. It's truly a joke really. 95% of these deals brought up by people are totally ridiculous to begin with.
I thought the point of this board was to discuss possible trades (trades that would make sense for both teams) for our own entertainment. By your earlier responses in this thread I was lead to believe that you thought there were plenty of better trade options, and as such I thought you might share some of those options with us so we could discuss them .

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01-27-2013, 04:11 PM
  #147
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This could work for both teams, but I want to see it a three or four player deal with Pitt getting 2 players. I have no problem seeing Despres go to Minny along with a 4th round pick for Seto and ???

Despres is going to be a force in two or three seasons, and can make a minor impact now, Pens management doesn't like to give fair chances to players though, so if Despres is on the trading block its no surprise.

Maybe Gilbert Seto for Despres and 3rd??
Way overpayment on the part of the Wild, and with what purpose? We need d, why would we give you one of our best d, for.... a POTENTIAL d, that MIGHT reach the level of Gilbert.

Look, Seto is not the best winger, but he is under a reasonable contract, and still has a strong upside. If you guys want to undervalue him, fine, forget the bloody trade then. He actually does have value to us as well.

Some of you Pens fans really need to understand that Seto has value, and it is quite possible that he has reasons for the point totals he has had the last few years, outside of him being a stump.

You don't want to pay what he is worth, we're not giving him to you for scraps. He's a hell of a lot better than some 3rd line chump, so get over it. I'm sorry you might have to part with some d guy that might pan out.

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01-27-2013, 04:13 PM
  #148
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Setoguchi is not going to open up space for anyone. He doesn't carry the puck, he's not big, and he's not overly physical.

Not to mention Crosby and Malkin are perfectly capable of scoring 100 points with what they have right now.
You're proving your ignorance of him with this statement.

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01-27-2013, 04:13 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Zucker v. Lovejoy is certainly up for debate. A poster thinks NHL experienced players have greater value than prospects. I was seeing if he would do that deal.

He does have value. Just not a top flight young defenseman that has the skill set of Despres.

I undervalue him because he has slipped. He immediately slipped the year after his 30-goal season with the same players that got him to 30 goals on his line. I understand Minnesota couldn't score. Minnesota fans call him an enigma. Well, we have had our enigmas in Pittsburgh and acquire them. They don't work out too well.

You keep Seto, we keep Despres.
You can stop with the Zucker for Lovejoy strawman. Lovejoy has only proven that he is a career 6D/7D, but Zucker has proven he can put up PPG numbers in a season where the AHL teams were stacked. In reality, Zucker is more proven.

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01-27-2013, 04:16 PM
  #150
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Hemsky I think has proven to be healthy and is playing pretty good but EDM does need a good young dman. Would PIT be interested in him?

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