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01-30-2013, 02:33 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by CBinTokyo View Post
Last game vs Buffalo, Kaleta was roughing up Kessel after he had accidental contact with Miller. I don't think it is a coincidence that he was targeted for a big hit by Brown in the game today. You mess with our stars, and you get messed with.
...really?

First - if the Sabres aren't so stupid as to go after Brown after that hit and negate the initial penalty, they get a PP. What if they score? Is that really retribution for Kessel?

"Oh yeah ! We showed them! For coming after our guy, we gave you a powerplay and you scored! That'll teach you"

Second - you get messed with...? Ridiculous. This isn't an intimidating team. No one is afraid of the Leafs size and fight. Having a few tough players in your team, doesn't make you a tough team. We've already been over this.

If having a few tough players in your team was all it took to make you a tough team, we'd consistently be a tough team - Orr, Brown, Rosehill, etc. Means nothing. The standings and our lack of appearance in the post season has proved that.

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01-30-2013, 03:38 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
...really?

First - if the Sabres aren't so stupid as to go after Brown after that hit and negate the initial penalty, they get a PP. What if they score? Is that really retribution for Kessel?

"Oh yeah ! We showed them! For coming after our guy, we gave you a powerplay and you scored! That'll teach you"

Second - you get messed with...? Ridiculous. This isn't an intimidating team. No one is afraid of the Leafs size and fight. Having a few tough players in your team, doesn't make you a tough team. We've already been over this.

If having a few tough players in your team was all it took to make you a tough team, we'd consistently be a tough team - Orr, Brown, Rosehill, etc. Means nothing. The standings and our lack of appearance in the post season has proved that.
Okay...well thanks for...uhh..discussing my point and not totally running off with something I never said. It's like arguing with my wife.

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01-30-2013, 06:06 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Here's my beef with this whole intimidation theory. Why would a player like Marchand be intimidated of Orr? What is Orr going to do? Beat up Lucic (assuming Lucic complies)? Is he dumb enough to go after Marchand, and cost his team 4+ mins in penalties while Marchand turtles? Heck, if I was Marchand, I'd love to play against Orr, not only does he not have an NHL skillset, but he'd be trolled all game long, hoping for some dumb penalties.

Throw the instigator penalty out the window, and it's a whole different ballgame, though.
Did you read the link i provided above,because it has a bearing on games according to the study of thousands of games. It is a interesting read. Last night the Sabres big Scott was on the ice with Orr,and nothing happened. That speaks volumes.

Nobody wants anything to do with Orr. Believe it!

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01-30-2013, 07:58 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Did you read the link i provided above,because it has a bearing on games according to the study of thousands of games. It is a interesting read. Last night the Sabres big Scott was on the ice with Orr,and nothing happened. That speaks volumes.

Nobody wants anything to do with Orr. Believe it!
I did wonder if Scott was in the lineup last night.

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01-30-2013, 08:03 AM
  #130
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We need tough guys that can score too.

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01-30-2013, 08:11 AM
  #131
CBinTokyo
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
We need tough guys that can score too.
We need a first line that can score too

But seriously I agree with you there.

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01-30-2013, 08:11 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
I did wonder if Scott was in the lineup last night.
Yeah,Scott had a look but though better of it i guess.Orr skated right up,and it was just casual in front of Miller while there was a little roughing going on. Them big rigs fighting,nobody comes out not hurtin though.

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01-30-2013, 08:12 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
We need tough guys that can score too.
like who? They are held on to,so you draft them. Nobody gives them up much.

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01-30-2013, 08:13 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by CBinTokyo View Post
We need a first line that can score too

But seriously I agree with you there.

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01-30-2013, 08:14 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
...really?

First - if the Sabres aren't so stupid as to go after Brown after that hit and negate the initial penalty, they get a PP. What if they score? Is that really retribution for Kessel?

"Oh yeah ! We showed them! For coming after our guy, we gave you a powerplay and you scored! That'll teach you"

Second - you get messed with...? Ridiculous. This isn't an intimidating team. No one is afraid of the Leafs size and fight. Having a few tough players in your team, doesn't make you a tough team. We've already been over this.

If having a few tough players in your team was all it took to make you a tough team, we'd consistently be a tough team - Orr, Brown, Rosehill, etc. Means nothing. The standings and our lack of appearance in the post season has proved that.
Wilson and Carlyle are so different.....Wilson's Idea of a tough guy was to treat them like a circus side show....they had no value and were never going to be used in the roll that they needed to be to be effective. Carlyle will not hesitate to send a message.....sometimes you have to take the extra penalty to do so....as you have to be prepared to respond otherwise you get ran out of the rink.....as was seen so often last year....and not once this year thus far.

So comparing last year to this year has no merit at all.....different coach will a different though process.

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01-30-2013, 08:17 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Did you read the link i provided above,because it has a bearing on games according to the study of thousands of games. It is a interesting read. Last night the Sabres big Scott was on the ice with Orr,and nothing happened. That speaks volumes.

Nobody wants anything to do with Orr. Believe it!
Yes, I skimmed through it. A similar "study" can be done for a lot of arbitrary events in hockey, such as the end of a period. For the first few mins of the next period, either or both teams are likely to perform better (let's say 74% likelihood), and there's only 4% chance that both teams will play worse than they have before.

I don't doubt that not many people want a piece of Orr, where my doubts lie is what Orr is able to do on the ice to protect stars like Kessel from being jumped by scrubs like Kaleta.

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01-30-2013, 08:24 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Yes, I skimmed through it. A similar "study" can be done for a lot of arbitrary events in hockey, such as the end of a period. For the first few mins of the next period, either or both teams are likely to perform better (let's say 74% likelihood), and there's only 4% chance that both teams will play worse than they have before.

I don't doubt that not many people want a piece of Orr, where my doubts lie is what Orr is able to do on the ice to protect stars like Kessel from being jumped by scrubs like Kaleta.
You **** pump him and then go after their star players......do you think that the hit on Kaleta was an accident....I say the result was but not the action....he was finished hard.

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01-30-2013, 08:27 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You **** pump him and then go after their star players......do you think that the hit on Kaleta was an accident....I say the result was but not the action....he was finished hard.
A week later... I guess it's better late than never. I like Brown in the lineup a lot more than Orr. At least he can play the game, can be used on the PK, and is fast enough to punish opponents hard. But since I was talking about Orr, I'm not sure how your response is relevant.

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01-30-2013, 08:33 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Yes, I skimmed through it. A similar "study" can be done for a lot of arbitrary events in hockey, such as the end of a period. For the first few mins of the next period, either or both teams are likely to perform better (let's say 74% likelihood), and there's only 4% chance that both teams will play worse than they have before.

I don't doubt that not many people want a piece of Orr, where my doubts lie is what Orr is able to do on the ice to protect stars like Kessel from being jumped by scrubs like Kaleta.
Kaleta knows now what will happen. Brown is not a dirty player,but he most likely could care less about Kaleta today,and is most likely shrugging it off. Brown is not used as much as he could be though either.

Pat Burns would put Brown on the PP in front of the net in certain situations.It's complex how he used to do it though,and had many variables.Brown could be a more effective player,and most likely his confidence would peak with it.

Carlyle is still unknown to me fully,and i don't know if he's as crafty as Burns was. Maybe.

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01-30-2013, 08:53 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
A week later... I guess it's better late than never. I like Brown in the lineup a lot more than Orr. At least he can play the game, can be used on the PK, and is fast enough to punish opponents hard. But since I was talking about Orr, I'm not sure how your response is relevant.
The response is relevant, Carlyle is not Wilson so expect players to be given clear instructions about retribution.....it does not always have to happen that same game to be effective. It just has to happen.....the person who made the hit is not the important part....the reaction is. Orr is needed to allow players like Kadri, Brown, Komarov etc to play their game. All like to talk and irritate others, as well as to protect Kessel, Reimer, Liles, Gardiner and Grabovski etc.

Having a fighter who is willing but gets pumped is not effective....when they pump their opponents they become much more effective.

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01-30-2013, 09:35 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Orr is needed to allow players like Kadri, Brown, Komarov etc to play their game. All like to talk and irritate others, as well as to protect Kessel, Reimer, Liles, Gardiner and Grabovski etc.
This is where I disagree. I don't see how Orr pounding on some heavyweights results in any protection for our softer players. Did him beating up the giant Scott provide any protection for Kessel? Are we concerned about the plugs Orr usually fights pestering our skilled players?

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01-30-2013, 09:44 AM
  #142
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I think the Leafs need to have a fighter on the roster for the games against the Bruins, Sabres, Flyers but other than that I would rather see grinders on the 4th line who can play and contribute.

Now people have been talking about intimidation and people running Kessel, Kadri among others. Well there is 2 points to this.

1. If those players are targets they should push back...not saying fight but if you run me you will get a stick in the chops...create your own space on the ice. Sure it may cost them a few penalties but the word spreads around the NHL that these guys are not taking the **** anymore. You think Messier's elbows and stick work not part of his game plan to give him more room on the ice.

2. if they run our stars we run their stars. If they run Kessel and Kadri run their stars don't go looking for a fight with their goon....if you run their stars they may ease off knowing retribution is coming to their stars.

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01-30-2013, 09:53 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
This is where I disagree. I don't see how Orr pounding on some heavyweights results in any protection for our softer players. Did him beating up the giant Scott provide any protection for Kessel? Are we concerned about the plugs Orr usually fights pestering our skilled players?
I agree and disagree, which I know isn't very helpful.

Brown taking a run at Kaleta was, in my opinion, a direct result of him roughing up Kessel (which in itself was a result of the the Sabre's sensitivity to Miller getting hit). It could have just as easily been Orr doing it. But even it being simply Brown, with Orr in the background, there is another level to answer to. If the Sabre's had an enforcer tougher than Orr, then Brown would have a reckoning waiting for him.

If you are going to have an enforcer, then may as well have one of the best.

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01-30-2013, 10:05 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
This is where I disagree. I don't see how Orr pounding on some heavyweights results in any protection for our softer players. Did him beating up the giant Scott provide any protection for Kessel? Are we concerned about the plugs Orr usually fights pestering our skilled players?
There are heavyweights that play regular shifts,and when they need tuning Orr will do it. Lucic should be tuned his first shift at the ACC every game,next shift to,and take him out hard.

Wait until people see Fraser fight. Lucic/Fraser guaranteed saturday night.

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01-30-2013, 10:09 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
There are heavyweights that play regular shifts,and when they need tuning Orr will do it. Lucic should be tuned his first shift at the ACC every game,next shift to,and take him out hard.

Wait until people see Fraser fight. Lucic/Fraser guaranteed saturday night.
I know fraser can fight, but i would way rather see Orr smash lucic then fraser. Orr deserves that one

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01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I think the Leafs need to have a fighter on the roster for the games against the Bruins, Sabres, Flyers but other than that I would rather see grinders on the 4th line who can play and contribute.

Now people have been talking about intimidation and people running Kessel, Kadri among others. Well there is 2 points to this.

1. If those players are targets they should push back...not saying fight but if you run me you will get a stick in the chops...create your own space on the ice. Sure it may cost them a few penalties but the word spreads around the NHL that these guys are not taking the **** anymore. You think Messier's elbows and stick work not part of his game plan to give him more room on the ice.

2. if they run our stars we run their stars. If they run Kessel and Kadri run their stars don't go looking for a fight with their goon....if you run their stars they may ease off knowing retribution is coming to their stars.
This is by far my most preferred method. The issue is, our 4th line generally only sees icetime against opposition's 4th line, and they're essentially a non factor in this equation. If a line like Komarov-McClement/Steckel-Brown (as our 4th line) can be trusted with 10-15 mins of icetime, they would be able to do much more of it.

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Originally Posted by CBinTokyo View Post
I agree and disagree, which I know isn't very helpful.

Brown taking a run at Kaleta was, in my opinion, a direct result of him roughing up Kessel (which in itself was a result of the the Sabre's sensitivity to Miller getting hit). It could have just as easily been Orr doing it. But even it being simply Brown, with Orr in the background, there is another level to answer to. If the Sabre's had an enforcer tougher than Orr, then Brown would have a reckoning waiting for him.

If you are going to have an enforcer, then may as well have one of the best.
If there's a significant mismatch in the players' size/fighting prowess, the smaller player always has the option not to answer the bell. The instigator rule protects them.

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01-30-2013, 10:37 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
This is by far my most preferred method. The issue is, our 4th line generally only sees icetime against opposition's 4th line, and they're essentially a non factor in this equation. If a line like Komarov-McClement/Steckel-Brown (as our 4th line) can be trusted with 10-15 mins of icetime, they would be able to do much more of it.



If there's a significant mismatch in the players' size/fighting prowess, the smaller player always has the option not to answer the bell. The instigator rule protects them.
Maybe I am too old (and too old school), but isn't there an underlying code? Unspoken rules? That if you are due a reckoning, and face it, then the BS stops? But if you don't, and if you dodge what you have coming, that you have to face getting pounded regularly?

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01-30-2013, 10:56 AM
  #148
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I know fraser can fight, but i would way rather see Orr smash lucic then fraser. Orr deserves that one
Yeah i know. Would rather both beat him.

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01-30-2013, 10:58 AM
  #149
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...really?

First - if the Sabres aren't so stupid as to go after Brown after that hit and negate the initial penalty, they get a PP. What if they score? Is that really retribution for Kessel?
In that situation, i'll happily take a goal against.

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01-30-2013, 11:18 AM
  #150
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In that situation, i'll happily take a goal against.
Agreed, It's (normally) a long season, a message not only goes out to that player and team, but to every other team too.

You need not look any further than the Miller incidents last year to know that Buffalo was filled with a bunch of softies. The same could/did happen with Reims. 1 goal against on a PK vs 12439213u943 goals against with Gus in net.

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