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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:26 PM
  #351
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In fact Lindros was going to demand a trade out of Quebec for the ATD, but he changed his mind after Mark Messier paid him a personal visit and threatened to kill him if he didn't report..

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01-29-2013, 10:28 PM
  #352
Jafar
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our fourth selection, the 116th overall in this year All-Time Draft, les Nordiques de Québec are extastic to select, from London, Ontario, Centre Eric Lindros



''A the top of our list for the fourth round since the very beginning of the draft, we are thrilled to select one of the most physically dominant hockey player in the history of the game. A truly rare combination of high skills, speed, size, strength and mean streak, Lindros play a style of hockey that is not uncommon to the one of Mark Messier, his childhood idol, and now teammate. It will be the coaching staff decision to see if they want to reunite a line with Mark Messier, Eric Lindros and Bill Cook, or play Eric on the second line against weaker opposition.''


PS: We understand the irony of Les Nordiques de Québec selecting Eric Lindros. Hopefully people understand that this is an All-Time Draft, and team location do not have any incidence on a player happiness/performances
ahaha I was wondering if that would happen.

For the record , I am a Lindros fan.

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01-29-2013, 10:33 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
As long as the Colisée has stairs for Messier to threaten Lindros with, I'll believe he'll behave.

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:34 PM
  #354
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In fact Lindros was going to demand a trade out of Quebec for the ATD, but he changed his mind after Mark Messier paid him a personal visit and threatened to kill him if he didn't report..
As long as Lindros never turned his back...

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:36 PM
  #355
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Busher Jackson , LW , please pm next gm


Some of you are putting together some ridiculous #1 lines.

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Old
01-30-2013, 01:54 AM
  #356
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Fun fact: The US Coast Guard has a profile of Frank Brimsek on their history FAQ:

http://www.uscg.mil/history/faqs/Frank_Brimsek.asp

Brimsek joined the Coast Guard during World War II, first "served" by playing for the Coast Guard Cutters hockey team, then actually served on a supply ship in the Pacific.

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01-30-2013, 02:06 AM
  #357
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The Whalers select Pavel Bure, RW.


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Old
01-30-2013, 02:35 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fun fact: The US Coast Guard has a profile of Frank Brimsek on their history FAQ:

http://www.uscg.mil/history/faqs/Frank_Brimsek.asp

Brimsek joined the Coast Guard during World War II, first "served" by playing for the Coast Guard Cutters hockey team, then actually served on a supply ship in the Pacific.
Yes, he played some other stars on that teams including Cook. Motter was on that team too.

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Old
01-30-2013, 02:37 AM
  #359
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Wha?

1973 - 6 games / 10 pts
1975 - 17 games / 15 pts (lost finals to Flyers)
1976 - 9 games / 8 pts
1977 - 6 games / 9 pts
1978 - 8 games / 5 pts
1979 - 3 games / 1 pt
1980 - 14 games / 21 pts
1981 - 8 games / 12 pts
1982 - 4 games / 7 pts
1983 - 10 games / 7 pts
1985 - 5 games / 8 pts.

7th all time (35+ games) among CTRs in playoff pts / game
4th all time among CTRs in playoff assists / game

Within the span of his playoff years only Gretzky, Trottier and Clarke scored more playoff points than him among CTRs.
Within the span of his playoff years only Gretzky and Stastny had a better assists / game average than him.

Seriously? Nothing special?
Averaging around a point-per-game in in the POs in Perreault's era was nothing to get excited about. His performance in 1980 was remarkable, but otherwise, his record is that of a good scoring forward, nothing more. Perreault was a good playoff performer, but nothing legendary.

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Old
01-30-2013, 02:59 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
But isn't that the point. Smith's play at centre convinced Maroons management that on the line Smith was the right wing on, Smith was the straw that stirred the drink. When broken up, Smith continued to excel while the other took a clear step back. This doesn't mean Smith was better as a centre, it means Smith was better as a hockey player.

More importantly, should the fact that every coach that ever coached Smith gladly moved him around the roster like a queen on a chess board be a strong argument against him being superior at one position over the other. If he was significantly better at centre, why did every coach he ever had have him switch positions on a regular basis? The answer, he was so versatile that whatever role he played made the team better. He would often return to centre not because he was superior there, but because as the most all-round demanding position, that is where Canadian coaches put their best player.

Smith is not playing out of position, Smith does not have out of position. From what I can gather, a rough estimate of his career would be:
40% centre
35% right wing
20% defenseman
5% left wing
In Ottawa, Smith was obviously not going to supplant a healthy Frank Nighbor at center, but he was too good to ride the pine, so they stuck him in on right wing when Nighbor wasn't gimpy. It was an ad hoc solution.

In Montreal, Smith landed on a team with at the time one of the greatest scorers in hockey playing center. Why that fatass had to stay at center is an eternal mystery, but again, Smith playing RW there doesn't mean anybody thought it was his best position. Once he was moved back to center in 1931-32, that is where he stayed, until his back eventually went out, and he wound down his career as a defenseman, which is irrelevant.

He played about a half season on defense once as a Maroon. It seems to have been the exception and not the rule that Smith was used on defense during his prime, but he could clearly do a good job back there. It doesn't really matter what percent of his career he spent at what position, almost 100% of his success came when he was a center.

You are correct that the Maroons were probably sick of Smith's fatass center, and that player's poor performance in 1931-32 is perhaps evidence that Smith was more important to his scoring than would be obvious in the box score...but then again, the LW on the old S line had the best scoring season of his career the year Smith left the line, so I dunno what to think.

In a case where a player plays multiple positions, but has the vast majority of his success at one position, I don't think a whole lot of in-depth analysis is necessary. The reason Smith has been used so often as a RW in the ATD is because in the past we were ignorant of exactly how his career broke down, and canon on the subject was very superficial on this topic. Hooley's "most famous" years came at RW on the S Line, and so everybody probably just assumed he was awesome at RW. A closer look into his career reveals that those were actually his worst peak seasons, both statistically and in terms of awards recognition, and that he really blossomed when playing center.

It is what it is, and every GM can interpret the facts as he sees fit. My interpretation is that Smith's style of game was better suited to playing the pivot, which should not be surprising as he was a playmaker and a hook-checker, both of which are best done from the middle of the ice. But that's just my opinion.

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01-30-2013, 03:06 AM
  #361
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For Hawkey Town:

I found this nik jr. post in a thread on the HOH board about the strange voting for the 1950 Hart Trophy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr.
Dink Carroll reports in 1-20-1951 Montreal Gazette that Sport Magazine's boards of experts voted, by a wide margin, Maurice Richard as top player of 1950, with (actual Hart winner) and Abel also mentioned.
I really should start bookmarking nik's better posts, so I don't have to keep searching for them.

Anyway, Richard was 3rd in Hart voting and Abel was 4th that year. It's more evidence that, right or wrong, Abel was considered the best member of the Production Line in 1949 and 1950. 1951 is the year that Howe and Kelly exploded and started dominating on the score sheet and in the awards recognition. Ted Lindsay just kept doing his thing and I think gets a lot of credit for taking over the captaincy after Abel was let go.

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Old
01-30-2013, 03:09 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
In a case where a player plays multiple positions, but has the vast majority of his success at one position, I don't think a whole lot of in-depth analysis is necessary. The reason Smith has been used so often as a RW in the ATD is because in the past we were ignorant of exactly how his career broke down, and canon on the subject was very superficial on this topic. Hooley's "most famous" years came at RW on the S Line, and so everybody probably just assumed he was awesome at RW. A closer look into his career reveals that those were actually his worst peak seasons, both statistically and in terms of awards recognition, and that he really blossomed when playing center.
The S-Line barely had set positions. All 3 forwards played significant about at center and wing.

There are many multi-positional players who are regularly used in their secondary postition. Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio were a lot better at center. They, like Smith, however, did prove that they could be very effective in both positions.

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01-30-2013, 03:20 AM
  #363
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The S-Line barely had set positions. All 3 forwards played significant about at center and wing.

There are many multi-positional players who are regularly used in their secondary postition. Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio were a lot better at center. They, like Smith, however, did prove that they could be very effective in both positions.
Abel and Delvecchio were both All-Stars at LW though, even if both had more good seasons at C than they did at LW. Abel seems to have permanently switched to C in 1947, which would give him 1 top 10 finish in points and 3 top 10 finishes in assists as a LW. I think that smart players with versatile skill sets will have the easiest time switching, and Abel and Delvecchio were both known as very smart players.

I think that if Hooley Smith was at his best as a classic playmaker, that could be hurt by playing the wing. His speed and physical play won't change though.

Question for Sturminator: Even if Hooley can't really hook check from the RW, he can still use his speed to back check, right? They have Frank Nighbor, so I think they are looking for Smith to provide supporting defense, not lead the defensive effort as a hook checker.

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Old
01-30-2013, 03:43 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Abel and Delvecchio were both All-Stars at LW though, even if both had more good seasons at C than they did at LW. Abel seems to have permanently switched to C in 1947, which would give him 1 top 10 finish in points and 3 top 10 finishes in assists as a LW. I think that smart players with versatile skill sets will have the easiest time switching, and Abel and Delvecchio were both known as very smart players.

I think that if Hooley Smith was at his best as a classic playmaker, that could be hurt by playing the wing. His speed and physical play won't change though.

Question for Sturminator: Even if Hooley can't really hook check from the RW, he can still use his speed to back check, right? They have Frank Nighbor, so I think they are looking for Smith to provide supporting defense, not lead the defensive effort as a hook checker.
Of course. Hooley is going to be a good defensive player no matter where he is on the ice, but it seems that a large part of his value (and the reason he got so much Hart recognition) was his ability to hook-check from the center position, which gave him enormous defensive value when he was doing so. His scoring during the 1926-27 season (when he replaced Nighbor at center in Ottawa) was actually quite modest, and yet he was 4th in Hart voting. When the Maroons won the cup with Hooley at center, he played the entire playoffs with a broken thumb (tough guy), and had (iirc) 1 point in the whole postseason. But they still won the Cup, which should say a lot about what he was bringing defensively as a center.

Hooley was one of the elite hook checkers in the league, and this was a big part of his overall value, as far as I can tell. The hook-check was a center ice manuever. It covered such a wide arc that doing it from the wing would be very difficult, and at any rate, you couldn't cut off opponents' transition nearly as effectively from just one side of the ice. The old Sens dynasty won its last Cup with a Nighbor - Smith line (though Hooley had a bum shoulder in the playoffs that year and ended up getting suspended for half of the next season due to an incident in game 5 of the Cup finals), so it can obviously work and would be absolutely formidable defensively with or without Smith at his absolute top form.

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Old
01-30-2013, 04:57 AM
  #365
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Abel and Delvecchio were both All-Stars at LW though, even if both had more good seasons at C than they did at LW. Abel seems to have permanently switched to C in 1947, which would give him 1 top 10 finish in points and 3 top 10 finishes in assists as a LW. I think that smart players with versatile skill sets will have the easiest time switching, and Abel and Delvecchio were both known as very smart players.
I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Hooley Smith was not an all-star calibre winger.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:50 AM
  #366
MadArcand
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I fully expected to be flamed for taking Bure, but nothing at all?

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01-30-2013, 06:53 AM
  #367
Jafar
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I fully expected to be flamed for taking Bure, but nothing at all?
well you took him around the same spot he went last year

there's definitely at least one (or maybe two) RWer(s) still available that I would take over him but nothing outrageous about that pick.

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Old
01-30-2013, 07:00 AM
  #368
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I know who you mean, but I chose Bure due to chemistry with Fedorov.

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01-30-2013, 07:03 AM
  #369
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I fully expected to be flamed for taking Bure, but nothing at all?
You deserve to be flamed, only if you want him to play with Hull

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01-30-2013, 07:05 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
You deserve to be flamed, only if you want him to play with Hull
Why?

The 'too much puckhandling skill' again?

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01-30-2013, 07:13 AM
  #371
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Why?

The 'too much puckhandling skill' again?
Too much puckhandling will. Bure wanted to do everything by himself, definition of a puck hog, Hull at least passed.

You can call you line parallel slalom with Fedorov as a pole.

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01-30-2013, 07:21 AM
  #372
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I'd rather call it 'skating circles around everyone'. Bure worked very well with Fedorov and another 'puck hog' on the other wing.

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01-30-2013, 07:27 AM
  #373
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01-30-2013, 08:05 AM
  #374
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do we know how fast hooley smith was?

a couple of drafts ago, i posted in dirt thread a comparison in 1928 ottawa citizen of habs and maroons.

it said "morenz has much more 'foot' than hooley smith." notable is the use of the word much.

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Old
01-30-2013, 09:42 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
Too much puckhandling will. Bure wanted to do everything by himself, definition of a puck hog, Hull at least passed.

You can call you line parallel slalom with Fedorov as a pole.
On the majority of the teams Bure was a member of during his NHL career.. he might as well have tried to do it all himself.

The only time he played on a halfway decent team was early in Vancouver and his assist totals were quite fine for a sniper like himself.

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